QuincymineIn 1975, Locomotive #6, a 3ft. narrow gauge Baldwin, outside frame, Consolidation went out to the Pine Creek Railroad at Allaire State Park in New Jersey. Their intentions to restore and run it on their excursion railroad were noble but the reality of such an undertaking was more than could be accomplished. It sat for 34 years. After extensive negotiations and excellent cooperation of all parties involved, #6 is heading back to its home at the Quincy Mine in the Copper Country of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. The cab and stack have been removed to lower the overall height and it will be loaded on a low boy trailer on Monday, June 15th. In order to keep from having to obtain additional permits in Indiana and Illinois, the plan is to cross Lake Michigan on the former C&O car ferry, the SS Badger, from Ludington to Manitowoc. A section of track has been laid in front of the Q&TLRR Enginhouse for the locomotive where restoration/preservation work can begin.
Thanks for that information. I had heard that #6 was being returned. What exactly is the plan for #6 when it is returned to Quincy location? What is planned for the snowplow that went to Pine Creek with #6?
The Quincy Mine Hoist association intends to do a cosmetic restoration of #6 such as a new cab and paintjob. There has been a slight glitch on scheduling the move, however, and it is being postponed until mid-July now. The tender will follow on another load which may or may not include the Russel plow. It is basically wood mulch now.
Quincymine,
I saw the snow plow leave Hancock in 1975, and I saw the recent photographs showing it as a pile of iron parts due to the nearly complete decomposition of the wood. Since this plow was a highly historic piece, who is responsible for not stipluating that the plow be stored under cover in NJ?
The plow could be restored. All it would require is the woodwork and the detailed knoweldge of the assembly. While it may be more or less just a pile of iron right now, there is still much valuable information of how it was assembled embodied in that pile. Once the pile is picked up and moved, there will be a greater loss of resource in the form of lost assembly knowledge than what was was lost in the form of wood decay.
I suggest giving some deep thought to this before scooping up that iron from the plow. Once you do that, the plow will be gone. As bad as it looks now, it is quite restorable.
I am sure that the Quincy Mine Hoist Association would be willing to entertain thoughts of allowing the ownership of the Russel Plow to go to a serious restorer. I am equally sure that the Pine Creek Railroad would like to see it gone from their premises. This would be an excellent project for a student of railroad history and industrial archaeolgy and one outside the limited finances of the Hoist Association.
Quincymine I am sure that the Quincy Mine Hoist Association would be willing to entertain thoughts of allowing the ownership of the Russel Plow to go to a serious restorer. I am equally sure that the Pine Creek Railroad would like to see it gone from their premises. This would be an excellent project for a student of railroad history and industrial archaeolgy and one outside the limited finances of the Hoist Association.
I agree that it would be an excellent project. Being that the plow is of composite construction, the physical part of the restoration would be pretty straightforward with the production of new wood components. If I recall, that plow was built at a relatively late date, so the iron and steel components might be quite sound, so they could be used without rework or repair.
However, the restoration would have one very formidable component. That would be the amassing of knowledge of how all the pieces go together. For as bad as the present deterioration is, I suspect that there is still a lot of assembly information embedded in the debris. While the plow has fallen apart, there are still many wood parts existing, and a lot of them are still attached to adjoining parts of both wood and iron. And a lot of the detached parts are still in close enough proximity to the parts they were attached to that is can be surmised as to how they went together.
Therefore, as difficult at a restoration might be today, if the ruins are picked up, moved, and re-piled, it will be nearly impossible to restore the plow. Once the present ruins are scrambled by moving and re-piling, any restoration will be likely out of the question.
That would be unless one could locate a complete set of engineering detail and assembly drawings for the plow. Otherwise the assembly detail will be lost history, and any restoration attempt is likely to end up as a sort of cheap, inauthentic mockup.
I visualize the restoration producing the snow plow in the same condition as the day it was manufactured, minus a little imperceptible wear on some of the moving iron parts. This would require the utmost care in woodworking and material selection. It would also require complete knowledge of the design details. Some of this design information might be gained from historic photos of the plow, and possibly from historical information and/or drawings from the manufacturer.
The rest of the design details must be gotten from the existing ruins. This is where the archeology would come in. This is the process I would use:
1) Measure all of the existing parts in the ruin and sketch them in orthographic views with all dimensions.
2) Make assembly sketches showing how the parts go together.
3) Model all of the parts in 3D cad.
4) Make 3D cad assembly models.
At this point in the deterioration, there may be some assembly detail that is very difficult to figure out. However, the cad modeling of what is known will aid in learning what is not now known.
For all I know, the ruins may have already been scrambled, and we are therefore beyond the point of no return. But if they have not been scrambled, I would urge Quincy Hoist Association to proceed with much caution, and not go with the urge to scoop up the ruins and return them to Hancock. Here is a link to a photo of the plow that was posted recently on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum:
http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,116091,116255#msg-116255
It does look grim. In fact I wonder if some of the wood parts have already been destroyed or otherwise lost. Knowing what the plow looked like when it left Hancock, it seems like there is not enough material bulk in the photo view to represent the whole plow body structure. It sort of looks like it has been picked apart perhaps to “stabilize” it once the roof began to cave in.
So much has changed since my first posting. It looks like locomotive #6 will finally be loaded this Monday (7/20/09) but they had some permit issues with the state of Ohio so they won't be going up through the lower peninsula and across on the ferry to Manitowoc, but up through Indiana, Illinois,and Wisconsin. It should be arriving back home on Thursday or Friday.
Quincymine;
While searching for some other info on the net, I found a NOTATION on the following web site link:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/lists/1959.shtml
That was the first heading under the State of Michigan listing a locomotive (?) of build dated to 1873.
It listed the city as AHMEEL of a mason bogie type loco, noted as stored. Hecla &Torch Lake. "Torch Lake"
It is in a list compiled in 1959 of locomotives on various types of display around this Country, as well as some in Canada.
Can you shed any light on this? The link to the list is displayed above.
samfp1943 It listed the city as AHMEEL of a mason bogie type loco, noted as stored. Hecla &Torch Lake. "Torch Lake" It is in a list compiled in 1959 of locomotives on various types of display around this Country, as well as some in Canada. Can you shed any light on this? The link to the list is displayed above.
Calumet and Hecla Mining Company #3 - "Torch Lake", an 0-6-4, is under steam at Greenfield Village in Michigan. Not sure it's the same locomotive.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The Mason Bogie "Torch Lake" was indeed the Calumet & Hecla's locomotive. It was re-gauged by the Ford people.
To respond to an earlier question about the city of Ahmeel.........it should have been Ahmeek, a mining location further up the Keweenaw, where the C&H had an engine house, and this is where the Torch Lake was kept, sheltered after it's last use by a contractor in the contruction of the Brockway Mountain roadway ( even further up the Keweenaw ).
To respond to the statement that the Ford people re-gauged the Torch Lake, this is un-true. The Torch Lake was built ( 1873 ) intially to a 4'1" gauge and remained as such thru it's first years of operation. In 1887 it and two others were severely damaged in a roundhouse fire. They sat inoperable until 1909 or 1910 when it, the Red Jacket and the Raymbault were basically reconstructed by the C&H forces, and were standard gauged at that time.
Who actually owned the Q&TL locomotives when they were removed from the roundhouse in 1975? Were they still owned by the Quincy Mining Company or did the Quincy Mine Hoist Association obtain them? I am curious as to why only # 1 and # 5 were kept for display.
If you have or can get a copy of Old Reliable you can read in some detail the structure of the ownership of the QMC. Basically, ownership and executive management were based out of the East coast, I'm not sure of the connection between them and the park where the locomotives went, but it was a descendant of the last ownership who was instrumental in the return of # 6 to it's original home. Size & condition ( back in 1975 ) were determining factors why #6 went and the others did not. I don't think the QMHA had been formed at that time. A frame and boiler from another Quincy locomotive remain in Flint at the Huckleberry RR.
My understanding was that Quincy Mining Co., President Todd had some interest or friendship with the Pine Creek Railroad in New Jersey, and that led to the agreement to lease #6 to them. As I understand it, the Pine Creek parties had also intended to lease the disassembled #3 and the new boiler that had been bought for #4, but declined at the last minute because it was discovered that the boiler would not fit #3 without considerable modifications to its frame.
Back in the 1960s, Quincy Mining was besieged with requests from all over the country by people asking to purchase the Q&TL locomotives. However, the company refused to consider the sale of any of the Q&TL plant because they held out hope that mining would recover, and the railroad would be put back to work.
At that time, the Q&TL seemed to me like a jewel for restoration and operation as a steam powered scenic railroad. However, I came to realize that nearly every little detail of the locomotives, track, and rolling stock was completely worn out.
Thank you for the explanations regarding the reasons for sending some of the Q&TL locomotives to other museums. I have read quite a bit about them but I do not recall reading about why they were sold/leased to others. I understand that the Q&TL, out of service in 1945, was more or less intact until the early seventies, so I can understand why there was so much interest in the railroad and equipment.
Why, exactly, did the Quincy Co. let go it's engines ? Consider the following.....
With the the renewed interest in steam across the country in the 1960's and 1970's, many organizations were actively seeking out and resurrecting the remaining locomotives scattered about. Witness the Southern Railway steam program, Mid Continent, and IRM to name but three. With the Q&TL locomotives "just sitting" you can see why they were targets for other groups to covet, especially so by those with narrow gauge interests. That # 6 went east is due, likely, to the connection previously cited between the Quincy management and the New Jersey group.
Why wasn't the existing Q&TL trackage used as a basis for a tourist railroad ? As mentioned by Bucyrus, they the whole infrastructure of the Quincy rail operation was worn out. Bad times in the '30's followed by hard usage during WWII meant little maintenance......so add to that the 30 years of sitting derelict, and by the 1970's the stuff was almost beyond use. To restore a steam locomotive is an expensive proposition. To restore one that is completely worn out is extraordinarily expensive. The fact that # 6 wasn't restored to operation, and the one sent to the Huckleberry in Flint suffering the same fate should attest to that. Then throw in another pair of huge costs, that of operation and that of maintenance. Any steam-based operation is a helluva lot of money, it's a cost that most organizations simply can not afford, witness that Clint Jones' Keweenaw Central was in the same area at about this time, and that it went under after just a few years operation. My understanding is that he lost the rail connection he needed, ( an infrastructure cost ) and the firebox in the # 29 was in dire need of repair ( a maintenance cost ). In order for a tourist oriented operation, even one that operates seasonally, to be a success, it needs a clientel base that is large and nearby, and sadly, that's something that doesn't exist locally for someone to have been able to resurrect the Q&TL.
Given the above, you can see where the decision to let the equipment go could have had it's rationale, "Yes it's sad to see it leave the area, but if the XYZ group can save this engine, maybe it's better that it's preserved there instead allowed to rot away here." Unfortunately, those groups that took the equipment didn't or couldn't follow through with their ideas. Many times those that have the desire to save that old engine ( or snowplow, or passenger car........ ) have no idea, in terms of either man-power or in finances, what it will take to accomplish the dream. And also, many of those groups are volunteer-based and the in-fighting that takes place in a lot of those organizations is self-destructive, so that the part of the group who might have initially had the idea and obtained the piece of equipment, suddenly finds itself on the outs with the rest of the group, thus the project, despite it's merits, finds itself back-burnered indefinitely.
Referring back to the three groups mentioned above, the Southern had a very reputable steam operation for a number of years, they had the financial backing, they had locomotives that weren't completely worn out to start with, they had a knowledgeable mechanical staff, and they had a client base to draw from.
The IRM was extrememly successful in locating and acquired many, many pieces of historic railway equipment, and built themselves a wonderful collection. They followed the initial acquisition by constructing buildings to house much of the collection. They had steam in operation for a long time, supported by a fan base out of Chicago and the rest of the mid-west, but maintenance and operational costs have gone up...The hardcore group of guys which championed the importance of steam have left, and this has led the group to run steam only sporadically in the last few years.
Mid Continent is a classic example of a group which obtains a piece of equipment, the interest in restoring the piece dies, and the equipment just molders away, while yet another faction within the group brings in yet another piece of equipment, fully intent on restoring it, and within a few years, it too is sitting out in the weeds, completely taken apart with little or no likelyhood of ever going back together.
Hopefully, the management of the Quincy Hoist group can leverage the funds, not let their dream become bigger than their pocketbooks can support, keep the focus and get # 6 at least cosmetically restored and under cover back in it's stalls of it's roundhouse. I think they can........they seem to have leadership that knows how to follow through on an idea.
There is a small narrow gauge operation near the Quincy, at Lake Linden. Tourism in the area is getting some national attention, so it might pick up. Hopefully someday part of the QT&L can be restored to operation.
Yup, a small operating section would be very, very nice. As mentioned earlier, the QMHA and their partners in the NPS seem to have focus and have the ability to garner funding; the round house is stabilized and has a new roof, and new doors, work is being done on the floor and inspection pits. The #6 which is still outside ( or was as of early October this year ) has been recently slathered in damp-proof primer to retard corrosion. I saw a small clipping in one of the store-fronts in Houghton regarding someone ( local I assume ) possibly reconstructing a rock-car.....I didn't inquire for details, but hopefully he continues and makes use of the parts available before the remains of the existing cars are so far gone as to make it impossible to reproduce one.
The financial aspect of operation of steam is daunting, but perhaps the group could model themselves after the Friends of EBT and have one or two weekends annually given to steam-up, certainly more do-able than trying to run on a regularl basis. I looked over the other two Q&TL locomotives in October, and oh, soooo tired they are. And not just from sitting in the open since 1946.....they were literally on their last legs when the fires were dropped for the final time. Evidence of pad-welding on the firebox wrapper, tires worn hollow, frames broken and re-re-welded.....tired, tired and more tired. Anything is restorable, it just depends on how deep your check-book is and as importantly, whom you hire to do the work.
Yes it is amazing that those Q&TL locomotives on display at the hoist were in operation while being so worn out. Quincy seemed to have put a lot of faith in arc welding. If nobody captures the details, the rolling stock becomes lost history once the wood disintegrates. Sure, the wood is relatively cheap, so it can be replaced. And even if not totally gone, it will need complete replacement in any rebuild. However, once it is gone, if nobody captured the design details, there will be no possibility of replicating the wood parts and putting the car back together. Any attempt is likely to turn out to be a Home Depot Special.
The best candidates for Q&TL rolling stock restoration would be either or both of the two basic types of rock car. The plans and kit for the Hartford Products Z-braced car captures nearly all of the details of that car design. The railroad museum in Duluth has one of the other types of Q&TL cars (with side stakes) in fairly complete condition that could be used as a reference. The few cars that were recently pulled out of the No. 2 hoist boiler house are in relatively good condition, and could serve as design reference as well as provide the ironwork for the basis of a restoration.
Possibly enough original design data is available to rebuild one of the side dump cars. There are relatively fewer wood parts on those cars, so it would be easier to interpret the original design. I would say the snowplow that went to Pine Creek is a lost cause unless there happen to be detail drawings from the builder available.
But like the locomotives, much of the ironwork of the cars is worn out, cracked, broken, and eaten by rust. If one of the Z-braced cars were replicated with new oak lumber accurately milled, and all the iron parts, the result would be spectacular. But it would be an enormous project.
Regarding the locomotives, I cannot imagine restoring one to operation. I suppose there are some parts that could simply be cleaned up and reused. But hundreds would have to be made from scratch. No. 6 may be in considerably better condition than the other two. It would be a worthy accomplishment just to get the three locomotives back into the engine house to complete the display.
There is indeed a small narrow gauge operation at Lake Linden. Several years ago my wife and I happened to stop by on their first day of operation and were pleasantly surprised to see a gorgeous little two foot gauge 0-4-0 saddle tanker under steam. This little gem had worked one of the area mines (Calumet and Hecla) and was restored with help from the Michigan Tech mech. eng. society.
They have an oval of track about 1/4 mile in length and use the old Lake Linden depot as a headquarters. The depot also houses a small museum and model RR display. It may also be of interest that the rolling stock used for the operation came from the defunct Badger Ammunition plant including two of the diminutive diesels. These resemble the small locos that you sometimes see in mine use.
Pat. (check out the link below)
http://www.houghtonhistory.org/railroad.html
After so many years of neglect and deterioration, it is a good sign that for once, it has turned around and is heading in a positive direction. The Enginehouse now has a new roof and doors, #6 is back from New Jersey and has been completely sandblasted and primed, #5 has received a new cab and a paint job, and the water tank has been jacked up. While this isn't much, it shows progress towards the eventual goal of a Q&TLRR Museum.
This is indeed good news. I appreciate these updates as I have not been able to visit the Keweenaw for the last few years. I didn't realize there was an issue with the water tower. It looked to be sitting level and in good shape the last time I saw it, but I guess that was a few years ago. The fact that it exists at all is nothing short of miraculous.
Will locomotives #1 and #5 remain at the hoist house or will they be moved to the enginehouse?
Thanks again for the updates. I hope to visit the area again soon.
Karl
Since the timber bents that support the tank were designed to hold up the tank when it was full of 3000 gallons of water, it is no problem now that the tank is empty. The "house" on the other hand is supported on the outer sills that are bolted to the battered timbers. Over the years, the wood around the bolts has rotten and allowed the sill to droop, thus causing the house to lean a bit. I don't know what plans the Hoist Association has beyond what has been done to level it up, but I am sure that they are considering a restoration project.
As to locomotives #1 and #5, for now, there are no plans to move them back down to the Enginehouse but that would seem logical. I would like to see #1 placed on some tracks on an incline in front of the Water Tank and re-create the very familiar scene of the circa 1908 photo.
The idea of moving them all back inside the Enginehouse would take up a lot of valuable storage/display/working room.
Chuck
Thank you for providing more information about the water tank, Chuck. I agree, the re-creation of that photograph would be great! If it is the photo I am thinking of, it appears that the water tank had clapboard siding and was painted white at one time. Is this correct or am I just looking at the photo wrong? To tell you the truth, I prefer the look of the tank as it currently exists in its weathered state--but that is just my opinion.
I have one more question that I forgot to ask on my previous post: I undestand that locomotives #1 and #5 had the tenders switched at one time. Was this done by the Quincy or were they switched during the move up to the hoist? I guess I am just curious as to why this was done.
Thanks again for the updates.
Yes, that's the photograph that I was alluding to. In fact, I have the original 11" by 14" glass plate negative of that one. I took it up to the archives and they made a Hi-resolution scan of it.
The water tank was initially sheathed with 4" clapboard siding. The backside still retains the original siding. The white color was a saline waterproof paint, which was used at one time period on Shafthouse #6. Itf it worked at all, obviously it didn't help on the interior of the tank house. The wall sheeting and studs are charred, evidence of a fire at one time. It was probably at that time that the vertical board & batten siding was put on the south and west walls and the horizontal planking on the east side.
As to the tender numbering question. The people that set up the locomotives at the Hoist matched them up with the tenders with which they came out of the Enginehouse. At what point in time the Q&TLRR made the switch and the reason is not known at this time. BTW - Tender #5 is not the original Baldwin tender. It was taken from #2 when they scrapped it. The tank for #3 is still down at the Enginehouse yard, upside-down and in the trees, about 100 yards to the east. The tender tank for #6 is not the original either. It is of welded construction, whereas photos clearly show a riveted tank and the dimensions do not match those given on the original blueprints.
Thank you for answering my questions. I didn't realize that the water tank still had some original siding on it. There was a quite a bit of brush surrounding it the last time I saw it a few years back, so I did not get a very good look. Plus the fact that I was not sure who actually owned the property and whether or not it was open to the public.
I also didn't know the extent to which the tenders were switched around. I read they were switched on #1 and #5, but the author of the book did not specify if they were switched before or during the move to the hoist. I guess it does make sense that the people moving the locomotives would have kept them the way they were left by the Quincy.
Thanks again for your reply.
When I first started poking around the site, back in the late 60's, There were signs all over the place that said, "Keep Out", and not manting to get in trouble, I did. Years later, I saw photos, taken at about that time, inside the Enginehouse and other buildings. I have heard that it was possible to get into the Enginehouse, under the big doors because the service pits had collapsed at the end (under the door). Not only did people take photos but I see that they also took every gauge, bell, number plate, etc. And of course, before I was able to get any detailed measurements and/or photos of Caboose #3, vandals set it on fire.
An On30 rtr model of the Q&TL ore car is available from prairielocomotiveworks@aol.com
These are pretty nice, I have some. Easily converted to On3.
John
I will certainly have to order at least one of those ore car models. It seems that a few models of a favorite prototype tends to result in a complete model railroad being built.
I currently live in Wisconsin but I was born in 1967 in Stambaugh Michigan in the Menominee Iron Range. I have been interested in the Quincy Mine and the Copper Country since first reading about it in the early 1980's. Unfortunately, I did not have a chance to actually visit the area until about ten years ago. I was always impressed by how much of the Quincy survived. I did not realize until later that much of the surface plant had been removed through the years. Sadly, it also appears that vandalism is not exactly a new phenomenon. I noticed that the headlamps on the Q&TL locomotives are also missing. I wonder if they were stolen at the same time as the gauges, number plates, and bells.
I am really glad to see the remaining Quincy buildings and equipment being restored and preserved for those of us who were not able to see this area earlier in its history.
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