The 611 & 1218 are back in the VMT with Christmas wreaths around there noses. They have been back there since the Roanoke Shops open house.
A lot will need to change before you'll see either run again. Heaven forbid that the UP should ever get a hold of them!
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It would be nice to see them run again, but why would UP want them? They already have two big locomotives that are their own heritage that cost them a bloody fortune to own and operate.
Or, is the nature of the question, "how stomach churning would it be for N&W locomotives to be lettered Union Pacific"? And, does this outweigh getting them operating again?
If so, then my opinion is that is would be no more discomfitting than seeing the PanAm logo on railroad equipment Go for it!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Hmmm.... I personally would have a problem with it because if UP took them both, they would insist on running the locomotives on their own rails... which do not coincide with the Norfolk Southern right of way. So a bit of N&W heritage would end up where I would be unable to see it.
More practically speaking, UP already has it's best passenger steam locomotive in operating condition (the Challenger)- and maintains it's finest steam freight locomotive (a Big Boy) in display condition. How does taking on the rehabilitation of two functionally similar locomotives benefit UP? They already grumble about "the bottom line" with their own equipment... and I understand that the professional UP crews that operate the Challenger are doing so as volunteers.
Let's assume for a moment that UP is capable of rehabilitating two steam locomotives to operating standard. (They had to subcontract out boiler inspections and fixes on the Challenger, if memory serves me correctly.) Who would pay for the work? Not Norfolk Southern- they've already said that they are donating the locomotives to a museum. Not the Federal Government- they can't even fund AMTRAK. And there aren't many private groups out there who can afford to repair, rehabilitate, and run two very large locomotives... that might not even be allowed track space to operate, anyway.
Don't get me wrong. I would love to see 611 pull an express train at speed again. I would pay money to ride on such a train. But, the reality is that these things cost big bucks... and corporate American railroads face much bigger financial problems that need attention first. UP might be the biggest elephant in the herd... but even their charity is limited... and their pockets are not that deep.
Well I don't think we have to worry about UP getting thier hands on the 611 or the 1218. NS does not own the locomotives, The City of Roanoke does and they lease the locomotives to VMT for $1 a year. VMT even cuts the museum admission when the locomotives are not on display, sush as the mouth when they were at the East End Shops.
I would love to see the 1218 opperational since it was being overhualed by the time I was old enough to go on the 611 excursions. However I know the 611 would have the best chance of being back in serive since all the componets are there all there. Much of the 1218 insides were compleatly scrapped from what I've always read. And all the specialized machines for N&W Roanoke Shops locos have long been sold off. I don't think the 611 would need much more than a similar overhaul like in 1982 and be brough up to FRA standards ( boiler tests if I'm correct).
Either way its going to take a lot of time and a lot of money. Both items which not too many companies want to put forward. However, I think that returning one of the locomotives to service is not out of the question. I still have hope at seeing atleast the 611 running again one of these days. It was out of service for 25 years before being restored. Its now been off the rail for 13 years. Who knows maybe in another 12 someone at NS will look back and say those Claytors boys had some pretty good ideas for a PR tool and bring the 611 back to the main line.
On a side not the last time I visited VMT I noticed some vandals had bustted a piece of the window glass on the 611. Not really that expensive or non-replceable, but unexceptable by any means. Not only is it other peoples property it is a historical landmark.
TG3 LOOK ! LISTEN ! LIVE ! Remember the 3.
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
I do not see why UP would want or need two foreign locomotives that closely duplicate the size and capabilities of the two UP locos they have.
I love 1218 and 611, but I don't think I will live to ever see either one in steam again. All anyone cares about anymore are $s. I must be content with my memories I guess.
I hope to see 611 and 1218 under steam, but not under the Union Pacific name. I just hope that someone inside NS will step up like Mr. Claytor did and make it a point to run these engines. Growing up I got to see all sorts of videos about the 611 and the 1218 only to find out the were retired again in 1994, the year I turned 5. There is a whole new generation of people in the South that have never heard the whistle of N&W s finest. I got to see the 611 and the 1218 last year at the VMT. When they dropped their fires for the last time, Steam excursions in Alabama ended as well.
I think that restoring 611 and 1218 to FRA standards for operation would cost NS at least $3 million. I basing this on the article in January TRAINS and scaling up a bit, I may be guessing low since I don't know what is the condition of the locomotives. Management would be hard-pressed to justify this expense to the shareholders and others in view of the ongoing need to expand capacity, maintain the system, etc. In this light, I would opine that we will also see the retirement of UP 844 and 3985 in the foreseeable future.
dale8chevyss wrote:I agree that restoring and reworking the engines to get them moving again would be a great idea, however, I would like to see them operate on the rails that they would have in the 50s.
AMEN!
I'ts just like Reading 2100. Out of the four locomotives used for the Iron Rambles, that's the only one I haven't seen since the sixties. And why? Because it's now clear out on the west coast.
Reality check time.
611 and 1218 are Roanoke products. They include a lot of parts that were specific Roanoke designs - things like staybolts. When NS terminated the steam program they sold the remaining spares as scrap, and the machines that fabricated them are no longer available.
It wouldn't involve merely working on the locos themselves. It would involve making the machines to make the parts that HAVE to be available if the locomotives are to be brought up to present-day FRA standards.
Chuck
tomikawaTT wrote: Reality check time.611 and 1218 are Roanoke products. They include a lot of parts that were specific Roanoke designs - things like staybolts. When NS terminated the steam program they sold the remaining spares as scrap, and the machines that fabricated them are no longer available.It wouldn't involve merely working on the locos themselves. It would involve making the machines to make the parts that HAVE to be available if the locomotives are to be brought up to present-day FRA standards.Chuck
And dispersed the workers who did the maintenance and repair work. Fourteen years have passed - that's a pretty long time, and the guys who grew up working on steam locomotives have retired, and I'll bet the younger guys have gone on to other work. Hard to operate and maintain a steam engine without a deep pool of experience and knowledge to support it.
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"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
MidlandPacific wrote: tomikawaTT wrote: Reality check time.611 and 1218 are Roanoke products. They include a lot of parts that were specific Roanoke designs - things like staybolts. When NS terminated the steam program they sold the remaining spares as scrap, and the machines that fabricated them are no longer available.It wouldn't involve merely working on the locos themselves. It would involve making the machines to make the parts that HAVE to be available if the locomotives are to be brought up to present-day FRA standards.ChuckAnd dispersed the workers who did the maintenance and repair work. Fourteen years have passed - that's a pretty long time, and the guys who grew up working on steam locomotives have retired, and I'll bet the younger guys have gone on to other work. Hard to operate and maintain a steam engine without a deep pool of experience and knowledge to support it.
Yah, you can read hundreds of books and play hundreds of simulators but that will never get you to the point where you can truley say you can operate a steam locomotive.
If they can't afford to run those engines anymore they should just donate them to an indoor museum, not dismantle them!! Thats would be just crazy!! Could the Union Pacific put its Challenger 3985 out of service for a while and find a Big Boy that is in the best condition and run it. If an engine sits out of service, stored for a while would it still cost big bucks?
Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!
Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.
Berk765 wrote: If they can't afford to run those engines anymore they should just donate them to an indoor museum, not dismantle them!! Thats would be just crazy!! Could the Union Pacific put its Challenger 3985 out of service for a while and find a Big Boy that is in the best condition and run it. If an engine sits out of service, stored for a while would it still cost big bucks?
If I've been following this thread and other sources correctly, dismantlement is not an issue and 611 and 1218 are already on display. They will probably never run again.
Berk765 wrote: Could the Union Pacific put its Challenger 3985 out of service for a while and find a Big Boy that is in the best condition and run it. If an engine sits out of service, stored for a while would it still cost big bucks?
Could the Union Pacific put its Challenger 3985 out of service for a while and find a Big Boy that is in the best condition and run it. If an engine sits out of service, stored for a while would it still cost big bucks?
Not happening not sure that you could safely operate that behemoth anywhere south of Denver like they do the two others. Could you successfully fire it on oil? Maybe, maybe not since the 4005 was done so in the 40's but they would have to recreate the oil experiment again. I think they store both locomotives in the remaining seven stalls while in off season and then move them to the backshop while in operating season. I beleive those remaining stalls were the passenger side and were not extended to keep a big boy inside. Now I know they could probably extend a stall but would it be worth it? Maybe in a few more decades when all the folks who remember what it was like to operate it are gone and a younger crowd comes up maybe they would do it. The 4018 at the museum in Dallas was repainted after many years of neglect and looks fabulous! Oh that brings up another point UP doesnt own any of the big boys sitting around and you know which ever museum jockies to get the sale is going to want some sort of incentive like free rides for their members or something else and who is to say any of those museums are willing to part with their item. It just seems like a long shot Maybe a better scenario would be a double header with the challenger pulling or pushing a big boy with a smnoke generator and enough steam for its whistle. Then you could see it moving.
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