Status of Southern 4501

[rockymidlandrr]

The last I had heard about the 4501 was that she was mothballed because she was too big for the TVRM to use on a daily basis.  The Trains September 2007 edition has a picture of the 4501 underneath the shed beside the shops.  Looking on trainweb.com I saw her in the shop with a fresh coat of paint, no more green Mikado, she was in her black southern railway dress.  Was she overhauled or just recieved a new coat of paint?  Could someone with new information get the record straight?

[cnwfan51]

I saw the 4201 stop at Hunysville alabama in the summer or 1977 while I was going to E>O>D> school at Redstone Atsneal and it was a great way to spend the afternoon  I think that the main reason she was sidlined was she was due floe and staybolt work and there wasnt enough money to have it done.   So I am assuming that she has just gotten a new coat of paint but dont quate me   CNW FOREVER   Larry

[dredmann]

SOU 4501 has been painted black at least since the latter 1990's. She probably does get some paint from time to time.

But by all accounts she is not fit for operation. I discussed her status with more than one person around the TVRM shop last year, and all said she needs boiler work. All agree the work will be substantial. Just how substantial is a matter of some debate, and nobody will truly know unless and until the work is at least begun. I've received estimates from $100,000 to $500,000, and no doubt some people would estimate higher than that.

The reason 4501 sits idle while 630 gets a rebuild is that 630 is allegedly better-suited to TVRM's usual three mile line. I say allegedly because, even within TVRM, it is a matter of some debate. Some say that both locomotives have similar grate areas and presumably will not consume coal at hugely different rates, if given similar work to do. Another issue is length; apparently 4501 is an extremely tight fit on the turntable, which they use every hour or so. However, presumably this is with her current tender; TVRM still has, and presumably could restore, 4501's original, smaller tender. Last but not least, some have said weight / axle loadings is the problem. Supposedly some of TVRM's excursions run over branch lines that can take 630 but not 4501.

TVRM has to look toward the day when 610 needs an overhaul. For that day, 630 might be a better fit for TVRM's usual operations. Also, 630 should provide more power for excursions. All that said, while I have nothing against 630, it is a fairly pedestrian locomotive. On the other hand, 4501 has tremendous sentimental appeal for me. The locomotives I would most like to see operating again are, not necessarily in order, SOU 1401, SOU 4501, NW 2156, NW 1218, NKP 759 or 763, and any of the Big Boys.

[dredmann]

P.S.
I was unclear in saying, "Also, 630 should provide more power for excursions." That would be more power than 610; clearly 4501 can provide even more power than 630.

[New Haven I-5]

The Southern 4501 is going to be Rebuilt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dredmann]

New Haven I-5, would you please give us some clue as to the source for your statement that "Southern 4501 is going to be Rebuilt"?

It would not surprise me if you say that 4501's condition and needs were recently shown to people who arguably have the interest and ability to make it happen. It would surprise me to hear that there's in place an actual deal (meaning, first, money, and, second, a commitment from TVRM to put the project on the front burner or allow someone outside to do the work).

Consider also that, last I heard, TVRM had invested a lot of time and money in getting 630 rebuilt, but that this project still has a long way to go. I would be surprised if TVRM would essentially put the partially-rebuilt and still-in-pieces 630 aside to work on 4501 without some compelling reason.

I know that 4501 is coming up on its 100th birthday in 2011, and I would love to see it get a birthday party on the high iron. But that and $0.60 will get me a Coke. You've piqued our interest. Tell us more if you know it.

[New Haven I-5]

Steam Locomotive.info & other fourms!

[Saxmusickman]

The last time that I was in the shop at the TVRR (June of this year) 4501 was still in it's usual place under the shed.  However, a large segment of boiler was in the shop being welded and ground, with two or three guys "milling" around it.  Very interesting...

[dredmann]

Perhaps I am dense, but could you please be more specific? Maybe a specific URL?

Steamlocomotive.info lists its status as "Display" (see http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=14). The TVRM web site's news page (http://www.tvrail.com/pages/standard/news.php) has nothing about 4501.

 

[dredmann]

Saxmusickman, could you have been looking at 630's boiler? 630 has been in the shop getting work as part of an operational restoration. Presumably 4501's boiler was intact, on the locomotive, and sitting out under the shed?

 

[New Haven I-5]

At Steam Locomotive. info, look in notes on the engine.

[dredmann]

In the notes as Steamlocomotive.info, the last note regarding a 4501 rebuild claims, "Posted: 2007-08-18 23:25:56.763 by rA, Sitting In pieces in floor in shop floor waiting for 200k for rebuild".

Even taken at face value, "waiting for" does not mean that it WILL happen, especially when there is a need for $200,000 in there too. However, I do not think the post on SL.I is substantially accurate. The locomotive sitting in pieces on the floor of the Soule Shops is almost certainly Southern 630, the black 2-8-0 from the Southern steam program. I think the poster on SL.I was confused by this. Note also that 4501 was intact, and rolled out for display, when TVRM held a ceremony renaming the shops for Bob Soule. That was relatively recently.

I don't think TVRM is likely to do any major disassembly on 4501 until both the money and the time for a rebuild are available. I don't think this will happen until after the 630 rebuild is complete, at least unless 4501 gets a major benefactor who is willing to pay to get the 4501-rebuild onto the fast track. That's not to say that serious people who could make it happen don't sometimes look at 4501, check its condition, and do some serious thinking. But a LOT has to happen before any rebuild gets under way, and I'd be very surprised if there is presently any firm plan for a rebuild.

[EJE818]

While I'm not the biggest fan of steam, I'd love to see 4501 operating again.

[awalker1829]

Southern 4501 will not be rebuilt anytime soon-if ever. The fact that she was not rebuilt and 630 was put in the shops for overhaul was due to cold, hard financial considerations. The day of large steam locomotives is pretty much dead. Increasing labor and fuel costs will most likely prevent any serious consideration of 4501 operating again. She was repainted recently, but that was all that was done to the locomotive.

[dredmann]

"The day of large steam locomotives is pretty much dead."

I think that's unduly pessimistic. Consider UP 844, UP 3985, MILW 261, and SP 4449, all of which have roamed far and wide and do continue to roam, at least from time to time. Consider PM 1225, NKP 765, SP&S 700, ATSF 3751, and others, which are quite large and get out a bit, at least regionally. Among somewhat smaller locomotives still quite capable of pulling decent-sized trains on main lines, and have done so in the last few years, consider SP 745, C&NW 4960, SP 1744, and several others. Among decent-sized locomotives getting rebuilds, consider SP 786, NKP 763, NKP 759, and others.

Steam excursions over sizeable distances have, and are likely to, decrease in frequency. Is the Norfolk Southern steam program of 1987 likely to return any time soon? No. But to assume that, say, 2-6-0's at 20 mph on little tourist branch lines are the most we'll soon have left is unduly pessimistic.

[Philcal]

The UP Steam Program is the beneficiary of company support, and is considered both advertising and P/R for the Railroad. I'd love to see the 4501 steam once more, but I suspect money, or more acurately, the lack of it, will be the problem for TVRM. I've love to be wrong about the money problem, as I recall well the 4501 during Southern's steam program.

[awalker1829]

4501 is pretty much a moot issue at this point. The 630 provides sufficient power for a seven car train over the C&C lines but can also operate on the TVRM mainline without incurring the exorbitant operating cost that the 4501 incurs. As the condition of the C&C line has not significantly improved, continued operation over that line is not a guarantee. With the increasing cost of fuel-both coal and diesel, it appears that the trend will be towards smaller locomotives. Couple that with the ongoing economic downturn and there isn't much chance that money will come in to foot the repair bill anytime soon.

[Anonymous]

to the person who said this locomotive will be restored soon.....

Look at the PRR K4 1361(sadly)

It was sitting in a pile for 11 years, and then it was worked on, but then the project was postponed

[awalker1829]

Best outcome for the 1361 at this point would probably be to put her back together and "stuff and mount" her in the RMM at Altoona.

[Anonymous]

I am a fan of Prr K4 1361...Look at my name....But i will accept if the loco will never run again, even though i really wanna see it run again