Could This be True?

[selector]

I heard a waaay different version of that joke, and it involved condoms and Gravol.

[marknewton]

What Fawcett says is true, but it's not a case of sticking handfuls of dung into the ends of tubes. Horse or cow manure is dissolved in the feedwater, and stops small leaks and weeps by gumming up the holes. It's a method which was commonly used to assist weeps in newly built or overhauled boilers to take up. I've also heard of boilers being steamed for the first time on seawater - NOT a practice I'd recommend!

If you can't get manure, bran is a good substitute. I was involved in building a new loco boiler a few years back, when we got sick of chasing weeps we went to our local supermarket and bought up all the bags of bran they had. When we fronted at the check-out, the cashier - a sweet young thing of about 15 - looked at us oddly for a bit, and then said,

"You don't have to buy all this, we've got laxatives in aisle five..."

All the best,

Mark.

[MidlandPacific]

 

Brian Fawcett, who worked in the mechanical department of the Central Railway of Peru, claimed in several of his books ("Railways of the Andes" and "Ruins in the Sky") that crews on the Central used manure gathered from pastures along the right-of-way to plug leaky flues.  The firemen apparently complained about it, because small boys would run after them and tease them. 

[marknewton]

>

Stepping into a firebox that was moments ago feeding the choo choo is nothing short of suicide or a disabled life fighting burns or worse.

You reckon?

And yet here I am, still alive, not disabled, and I've been inside hot engines five times...

Mark.

[marknewton]

Well I would like to see actual some documented cases of this, not just heresay in a book of RR lore, as it seams suicidal to try this today, but then again they were a bit crazier back then in pre-OSHA days. It would be like stepping into a lit BBQ pit. Even if you entirely dropped the fire, the boiler would still be radiating a tempurature close to boiling at 212 degrees. So I'm still sceptical about this.

Well, don't be.

I've done it four times over my 33-year railway career.

Twice on a 2-8-2 to remove a partially-collapsed arch,

Once on a 4-6-4T to plug a leaking tube,

and once on a 4-6-2 to repair a collapsed rocking grate section.

Mark.
(Former boilermaker and later boiler inspector, NSWGR)

EDIT: Make that five times - I've also been inside another, different 2-8-2, ringing up wallstays while she was hot.

[youngengineer]

Not only true but still happens today, when flues get plugged! I have seen, witnessed, someone entering a firebox after the fire was dropped, this was to clean out the flues due to bad coal clogging them up. While not a daily occurence or even a yearly occurence, what must be done must be done. Generally someone volunteers and no one is notified about such incident. Restarting the fire is pretty simple, some wood, dope, and an already hot firebox, gets the fire back up fairly quickly.

[vsmith]

Fascinating! I'll have to add those books to my reference library...

[J. Edgar]

starting a fire isnt that much a chore as you would think.....the crews would have plenty of dope ( not for smoking....dope is the greased wadding you put in the journals of cars pre-roller bearing days) and im sure a zippo would light that.....then like any good boyscout ya start small and work your way up......i also read in a WW2 era Railroad magizine of a  Army Corps of Engineers crew working in the pacific and at one point on a small steamer the Japs over ran the train and one of the Army train crew hid in the firebox with his M1 and defended the engine...is this myth bustable?

[Semper Vaporo]

Well I would like to see actual some documented cases of this, not just heresay in a book of RR lore, as it seams suicidal to try this today, but then again they were a bit crazier back then in pre-OSHA days. It would be like stepping into a lit BBQ pit. Even if you entirely dropped the fire, the boiler would still be radiating a tempurature close to boiling at 212 degrees. So I'm still sceptical about this.

I recognize your disbelief!  I, too, shared your skepticism (and still do somewhat!)

But, the book is not a "book of RR lore".  It was written originally in 1899 and revised several times over the next 20 to 25 years and contains a lot more than just "stories".  It is a technical treatise on the Steam Locomotive, and I have seen it referenced by many other noted authors.

I have done "some" other research on this and I have to believe it to be true, based on that research.  I do not have the other things I found at hand now (and I don't believe that other material would be any better than the book for credibility).

By the way, the temperature would be a lot more than 212 degrees!  The water is under pressure and as the pressure goes up so does the boiling point!  If the boiler pressure were 200 pounds per square inch, the temperature would be in excess of 380 degrees!!!!  300psi would be 417 degrees.

BUT, with the blower open to draw air into the firebox, the outside air being pulled up through the grate would provide the cooling necessary to keep the body from overheating.  Just have to wear gloves so you don't burn your hands on the metal.

Restarting a fire, if it were to have been completely dropped could easily be done.  All it takes is some tinder and flint or two sticks to rub together.  They would have had plenty of flammable liquids (kerosene, oil, etc.) available also.  It may have taken a while to get a good roaring fire again, but it could be done.

[Anonymous]

Workers are Company Property and will be used as fuel as necessary to get the engine going again.

[john7470]

Yep, that's exactly how I've seen/heard it done.  Considering the size of the firebox opening, what good the rope does in the event of an emergency is questionable!  You couldn't pay me enough to do that chore.

[nathansixchime]

Guys, it's been done, and a lot more recently than you think!

The idea behind dropping the fire for a repair like this would be to only drop one side of the firebox. You needn't dump the whole fire into the ash pit. You rock the grates for whatever side needs attention, put on several heavy layers, crawl in with something tied around a limb in the event that you're overcome, do the job, crawl back out.

As for "re-starting," that's easy. If the fire isn't completely out, you rake the opposite side of the firebox over, lay down a fresh bed of coal and you're off. In the event your fire is completely dropped, you can use coal, cotton waste, wood, etc to re-start.

Back in the day, crews did what they had to to get over the road. If your engine loses a front grate and gets disabled on the line, the dispatcher could potentially care more about a lame locomotive on his line than what it takes to get 'er going again.

[Anonymous]

There is one rule. Drop the fire and that kills the choo choo.

If such a deed was done on the Mainline or siding... miles from anything except what exists on board the train... HOW were they able to restart the thing with a new fire? I cannot think a zippo lighter was stout enough to do the job.

Stepping into a firebox that was moments ago feeding the choo choo is nothing short of suicide or a disabled life fighting burns or worse.

I dont think the Dispatcher will appreciate losing his one line waiting hours on a sad choo choo.

[vsmith]

Well I would like to see actual some documented cases of this, not just heresay in a book of RR lore, as it seams suicidal to try this today, but then again they were a bit crazier back then in pre-OSHA days. It would be like stepping into a lit BBQ pit. Even if you entirely dropped the fire, the boiler would still be radiating a tempurature close to boiling at 212 degrees. So I'm still sceptical about this.

[john7470]

I frequently heard of this being a non-uncommon practice in steam days... and I have personally witnessed a shopman hop in the hot firebox of a tourist road's oil burner to deal with fallen firebrick.  The soles of his boots were literally smoking when he emerged.  Not for the claustrophobic!

[nathansixchime]

Of far more significance to me in casting doubt on this story was the ability of a man to enter the firebox with any fire still smoldering. I would think that the heat would be unberable and the air unbreathable due to the smoke and fumes. Could it actually have happened or was this just another tall tale that railroaders so often delighted in telling? What's your opinion?

Mark

 

This feat can be and has been accomplished in recent steam locomotive preservation and operation. You have to partially drop the fire on whatever side of the locomotive firebox interior that needs attention. It seems like a tall-tale for a man to leap into a firebox to make a crucial repair, but it's been done before many times, with lots of preparation, lots of protection, and partially or entirely dropped fire.

[Semper Vaporo]

I believe it was in 1944 that I read an account in the old Railroad Magazine of a remarkable feat that demonstrated the resourcefulness and dedication of railroaders during WW2. Of course I would have been a very impressionable 12 year old at the time and wouldn't even think of questioning the truthfulness of anything that appeared in print in Railroad Magazine.

The article told of an engine at the head of a troop train springing a leak in either the crown sheet or a fire tube and was rapidly losing steam. The crew stopped the train and shook down most of the fire. They then cut sod from along the ROW which they placed over the remaining burning coals, the fireman was wet down, and entered the fire box to drive (IIRC) a wooden plug in to stop the leak. Having made this temporary fix they pulled the sod out, rebuilt the fire, and were able to run the train to the nearest point where a replacement engine was available.

In later years I came to question how one could cut sod with a scoop shovel which would have been the only tool available that was even remotely capable of the job. Of far more significance to me in casting doubt on this story was the ability of a man to enter the firebox with any fire still smoldering. I would think that the heat would be unberable and the air unbreathable due to the smoke and fumes. Could it actually have happened or was this just another tall tale that railroaders so often delighted in telling? What's your opinion?

Mark

In the book:

The Locomotive Up To Date
By Chas. McShane
Copyright 1899 by Chas. McShane
Revised by Chas. L. McShane
Copyright 1920 by Chas. McShane
GRIFFIN & WINTERS
New York Life Building,
Chicago, Ill.
1923

In the Chapter: "Breakdowns", under the heading "Flue Burst", it describes how to plug a flue that is leaking.  Quoted herewith:

"     Reduce the steam pressure and plug the flue with a wooden or iron plug.  If you can get at the flue from the fire box door (using a long iron rod), you can plug the flue without drawing the fire, but a shapened pole, or stick of wood, long enough to reach the flue, my be driven into it, and answer the purpose.  The wood will burn off up to the water line, but it will not burn inside of the flue sheet.  It is advisable to plug the front end of the flue first, and then the back end.  If a lower flue bursts, or leaks badly, bank that part of the fire affected, and, if the pressure can be maintained, proceed.  If the flue canot be plugged, or its effect limited, cover the fire dead, open the blower enough to carry off the smoke in the fire box, lay a board on top of the coal, and go into the fire box and calk or plug the flue.  This, however, cannot be done if there is a brick arch in the fire box.

"     The practice of plugging the flues is held to be inadvisable, and is discuraged by some roads."

The previous edition of this book did not contain the second paragraph.  The previous edition has been republished as the following two books and may still be available new someplace:

Classic American Locomotives
The 1909 Classic on Steam Locomotive Technology
By Charles McShane
Originally published in 1899 by Griffin & Winters.
The special contents of this edition are copyright 2003 by The Lyons Press
The Lyons Press
Guilford, Connecticut
An Imprint of The Globe Pequot Press
ISBN 1-59228-054-4

(EDIT: I just found this available from www.astragalpress.com)

The Locomotive Up To Date (1906)
By Charles McShane
Copyright 1906, Griffin & Winters
New York Life Building, Chicago, Ill.
Republished by: Little River Locomotive Company
Townsend, Tennessee
1999

The above two books are actually the exact same text and illustrations, inspite of the differences indicated by the titles.  The only difference in the publications being that the second one includes 15 pages of period advertisements for other books by Charles McShane, other publications by Griffin & Winters, locomotives from various well and lesser-known locomotive builders, and artificial limbs from George R. Fuller.  (The latter possibly being witness to the danger of working on the railroad in the late 1800s.)

I found nothing else in Mr. McShane's book of such nature that would cast doubt on this particular paragraph, and I have heard his works refered to by other authors of respect.

I do find the paragraph somewhat confusing.  The paragraph attempts to cover both a burst flue and a flue that is just leaking around the seal with the rear flue sheet.  Plugging the flue is to "put a cork in it" as it were, in both ends of the flue to entrap the water/steam escaping due to a hole/split in the length of the flue pipe.  Calking the flue is to pound on the rim of the flue pipe sticking out of the flue sheet to press/weld the metals back together again.

The practice of sticking a piece of wood into a hole works because the wood swells due to the water soaking into it and this plugs the hole.  The fire burns the wood on the outside until it reaches the metal of the flue/flue sheet whereupon the metal sinks the heat away and the wood stops burning.  Thus the leak is plugged.  It will last a while until the water so soaks the wood that it begins to come apart and blows out of the hole.  This usually leaves the hole slightly enlarged, so it won't work too many times in a row.  But if it is a long walk to the nearest city, well, a fella's gotta do what a fella's gotta do.

 

And an interesting off topic note: in the earlier version of the book (the two reprints listed), Walschaerts' Valve gear is mentioned as being extensively used on the Belgian State Railways "but probably will not receive much attention from locomotive builders beyond that kingdom"... a scant half page.  Whereas, the revised edition (the one I quoted) devotes nearly 60 pages to the design.  If you can find the 1920/1923 edition it is an excellant work on all aspects of the Steam Locomotive.  Granted, it does not cover the improvements past that time, (nor any of Chapelon's or Porta's works), but is very good.

 

[KCSfan]

No its a Tall Tale, pure BS

I explained so point by point when this was listed in the other forum but when I posted my reply imaging my surprise when the topic didnt exist there anymore and now I find it was moved, well my lenthy reply was erased in doing so and I'm dam well not going to retype it, 'nough to say- pure BS!

Vsmith,

My fault and I apoligize. Shortly after posting my message I moved it to what I thought was a more appropriate forum. I hadn't expected any replies so soon. I would have liked to read your full reply and am sorry it was lost in the process.

Mark 

[vsmith]

I believe it was in 1944 that I read an account in the old Railroad Magazine of a remarkable feat that demonstrated the resourcefulness and dedication of railroaders during WW2. Of course I would have been a very impressionable 12 year old at the time and wouldn't even think of questioning the truthfulness of anything that appeared in print in Railroad Magazine.

The article told of an engine at the head of a troop train springing a leak in either the crown sheet or a fire tube and was rapidly losing steam. The crew stopped the train and shook down most of the fire. They then cut sod from along the ROW which they placed over the remaining burning coals, the fireman was wet down, and entered the fire box to drive (IIRC) a wooden plug in to stop the leak. Having made this temporary fix they pulled the sod out, rebuilt the fire, and were able to run the train to the nearest point where a replacement engine was available.

In later years I came to question how one could cut sod with a scoop shovel which would have been the only tool available that was even remotely capable of the job. Of far more significance to me in casting doubt on this story was the ability of a man to enter the firebox with any fire still smoldering. I would think that the heat would be unberable and the air unbreathable due to the smoke and fumes. Could it actually have happened or was this just another tall tale that railroaders so often delighted in telling? What's your opinion?

Mark

[KCSfan]

I believe it was in 1944 that I read an account in the old Railroad Magazine of a remarkable feat that demonstrated the resourcefulness and dedication of railroaders during WW2. Of course I would have been a very impressionable 12 year old at the time and wouldn't even think of questioning the truthfulness of anything that appeared in print in Railroad Magazine.

The article told of an engine at the head of a troop train springing a leak in either the crown sheet or a fire tube and was rapidly losing steam. The crew stopped the train and shook down most of the fire. They then cut sod from along the ROW which they placed over the remaining burning coals, the fireman was wet down, and entered the fire box to drive (IIRC) a wooden plug in to stop the leak. Having made this temporary fix they pulled the sod out, rebuilt the fire, and were able to run the train to the nearest point where a replacement engine was available.

In later years I came to question how one could cut sod with a scoop shovel which would have been the only tool available that was even remotely capable of the job. Of far more significance to me in casting doubt on this story was the ability of a man to enter the firebox with any fire still smoldering. I would think that the heat would be unberable and the air unbreathable due to the smoke and fumes. Could it actually have happened or was this just another tall tale that railroaders so often delighted in telling? What's your opinion?

Mark