No man trains

[Anonymous]

II think that the article made a little confusion. There were two different things mixed together:

- Yard and switching service
- Normal train service.

We live in year 2003 and the computer and RC technologies are at such a high level that it is 100 % possible to run a train complete under RC.

BUT:

Who enters a plane when he knows that the pilot is sitting in a room at the ground ?
Who enters a train when he knows that the engineer is a computer ?

I think nearly nobody!

So the answer for a remote controlled train system is easy. It will not work because of psychological effects!
There is a limit what a human person allows a computer to do without human control!

Behind this limit, there must be a last instance that agree the work of the computer: A pilot in the cockpit or the engineer in the cab!
And this is also the reason for the, let me say so, „dooropener“ at BART and so.

A plane fly its route by autopilot. But there are two pilots in the cockpit and they agree or disagree the job of the autopilot. And they starts and make the landing because this phases are so dangerous. When something happens there is no time for a computer to find an answer and make a reaction, the reaction must come in the moment. And this is only possible with a human pilot! A computer needs first input from sensors than he makes a decision.

Here in Germany we run our highspeed passengertrains (ICE) at the new lines under full centralized computer control.

When an ICE enter a so called LZB district (LZB is the name of the centralized com-puter system) the engineer notch the trottle to the position „AFB“ that means that dri-ving and breaking is now under centralized computer control. The computer then knows the exact position of a train at every time, there is a permanent data transfer between train and computer. Not via radio, because of the too many tunnels that will not work. A half inch black cable in the middle of the track is the „transmitter“. The computer „says“ the train when it´s time to „give speed“ and when it is time to break. And this works well and comfortable for the passengers. The computer will stop a train exact at the platform !

But the work of the computer is under control by an engineer at every time and he is the real final instance ! When everything is okay he has an fine job in a airconditioned cab. But when something will happen he can handle immediately!

And there are many other questions:
What will happen when the computer become a defect?
What will happen when an engine got a defect?

An engineer can run the loco at every time and he knows what he had to do when something will not work, can make little repairs.

The opposite side are switching- and yard jobs.
In Germany today it´s normal that at a yardtrain was under RC with only one man.
He is not an engineer, he is a not so expensive yardman only with the permission to drive the yardlocomotive in the yard ! He has no permission to drive a train to another station, this job must be done by a regular engineer ! And he has no permission to drive a normal road engine.

And this brings real more safety! Here is a different non automatic coupler system with sidebuffers, so a personal must duck under the buffers for reaching the coupler. And because of misunderstandings there were many accidents with killed switching-men.
But now the worker at the coupler is the same that controls the engine and nothing will happen.

By the way: All our trains are manned with only one engineer ! A second was only needed in some extreme rare situations when the safetysystem not works. As joke: Because of this, in former times the cabs are equipped with two seats but the newest highspeed equipment (ICE3) has one comfortable chair for the engineer and a „tortu-re chair“ for a second person. 10 minutes and your rear hurts well.

[^]

[Anonymous]

II think that the article made a little confusion. There were two different things mixed together:

- Yard and switching service
- Normal train service.

We live in year 2003 and the computer and RC technologies are at such a high level that it is 100 % possible to run a train complete under RC.

BUT:

Who enters a plane when he knows that the pilot is sitting in a room at the ground ?
Who enters a train when he knows that the engineer is a computer ?

I think nearly nobody!

So the answer for a remote controlled train system is easy. It will not work because of psychological effects!
There is a limit what a human person allows a computer to do without human control!

Behind this limit, there must be a last instance that agree the work of the computer: A pilot in the cockpit or the engineer in the cab!
And this is also the reason for the, let me say so, „dooropener“ at BART and so.

A plane fly its route by autopilot. But there are two pilots in the cockpit and they agree or disagree the job of the autopilot. And they starts and make the landing because this phases are so dangerous. When something happens there is no time for a computer to find an answer and make a reaction, the reaction must come in the moment. And this is only possible with a human pilot! A computer needs first input from sensors than he makes a decision.

Here in Germany we run our highspeed passengertrains (ICE) at the new lines under full centralized computer control.

When an ICE enter a so called LZB district (LZB is the name of the centralized com-puter system) the engineer notch the trottle to the position „AFB“ that means that dri-ving and breaking is now under centralized computer control. The computer then knows the exact position of a train at every time, there is a permanent data transfer between train and computer. Not via radio, because of the too many tunnels that will not work. A half inch black cable in the middle of the track is the „transmitter“. The computer „says“ the train when it´s time to „give speed“ and when it is time to break. And this works well and comfortable for the passengers. The computer will stop a train exact at the platform !

But the work of the computer is under control by an engineer at every time and he is the real final instance ! When everything is okay he has an fine job in a airconditioned cab. But when something will happen he can handle immediately!

And there are many other questions:
What will happen when the computer become a defect?
What will happen when an engine got a defect?

An engineer can run the loco at every time and he knows what he had to do when something will not work, can make little repairs.

The opposite side are switching- and yard jobs.
In Germany today it´s normal that at a yardtrain was under RC with only one man.
He is not an engineer, he is a not so expensive yardman only with the permission to drive the yardlocomotive in the yard ! He has no permission to drive a train to another station, this job must be done by a regular engineer ! And he has no permission to drive a normal road engine.

And this brings real more safety! Here is a different non automatic coupler system with sidebuffers, so a personal must duck under the buffers for reaching the coupler. And because of misunderstandings there were many accidents with killed switching-men.
But now the worker at the coupler is the same that controls the engine and nothing will happen.

By the way: All our trains are manned with only one engineer ! A second was only needed in some extreme rare situations when the safetysystem not works. As joke: Because of this, in former times the cabs are equipped with two seats but the newest highspeed equipment (ICE3) has one comfortable chair for the engineer and a „tortu-re chair“ for a second person. 10 minutes and your rear hurts well.

[^]

[Anonymous]

There is a joke among the aircraft cockpit designers.
On the first fully automated flight across the ocean, after takeoff, a voice announces:
"Welcome to the first truly automated flight to dah, London. This system has been thoroughly tested. Nothing can go wrong ...can go wrong ...can go wrong ..."

Smith's corolary to Finagle's rules or Murphy's laws, Genius cannot defeat idiots!
Lindsay

[Anonymous]

There is a joke among the aircraft cockpit designers.
On the first fully automated flight across the ocean, after takeoff, a voice announces:
"Welcome to the first truly automated flight to dah, London. This system has been thoroughly tested. Nothing can go wrong ...can go wrong ...can go wrong ..."

Smith's corolary to Finagle's rules or Murphy's laws, Genius cannot defeat idiots!
Lindsay

[Anonymous]

Dear Forum Users:

We set up two forums for Railroads -- one for general discussion, and one for additions and comments to Trackside Guides. That's this one. Please start new threads on everything EXCEPT Trackside Guides in the other forum, in order that this one can serve its purpose. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Dear Forum Users:

We set up two forums for Railroads -- one for general discussion, and one for additions and comments to Trackside Guides. That's this one. Please start new threads on everything EXCEPT Trackside Guides in the other forum, in order that this one can serve its purpose. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Much of the excitment I get from "railfanning" involves the "human" equation. I'm all grown up, but I still wave at every train crew of every train that I'm lucky enough to experience. I hate to say it, but the day human beings are no longer a part of the trains is the day I might start turning my back on the trains.
Sometimes so-called "progress and efficiency" exact a greater toll on us than we notice at the moment, and its only farther down the line we realize that in our earlier haste we might have lost something more important to our humanity. Is the end purpose of most technology in the workplace to reduce humans to mere spectators, void of skills and craftsmanship, who simply push buttons? This series of fine articles in September TRAINS reminds me of the TWILIGHT ZONE episode in which foundry owner Mr. Wipple automated the entire factory, putting hundreds of men out of work, until the machines put him out on the street.
I just hope I'm gone from this "place of no common sense" before No Man Trains start rolling down the tracks.

[Anonymous]

Much of the excitment I get from "railfanning" involves the "human" equation. I'm all grown up, but I still wave at every train crew of every train that I'm lucky enough to experience. I hate to say it, but the day human beings are no longer a part of the trains is the day I might start turning my back on the trains.
Sometimes so-called "progress and efficiency" exact a greater toll on us than we notice at the moment, and its only farther down the line we realize that in our earlier haste we might have lost something more important to our humanity. Is the end purpose of most technology in the workplace to reduce humans to mere spectators, void of skills and craftsmanship, who simply push buttons? This series of fine articles in September TRAINS reminds me of the TWILIGHT ZONE episode in which foundry owner Mr. Wipple automated the entire factory, putting hundreds of men out of work, until the machines put him out on the street.
I just hope I'm gone from this "place of no common sense" before No Man Trains start rolling down the tracks.

[David3]

As I said in one of the other posts, I think it can be done in the yards, but there is no way it can be done on the mainlines! [^][^][^][^][^]

[David3]

As I said in one of the other posts, I think it can be done in the yards, but there is no way it can be done on the mainlines! [^][^][^][^][^]

[Anonymous]

Since you are in Germany, have you heard about Cargomover?
It is a fully automated freight train. It has no cab! Just a video camera (plus some other automatic sensing devices that work even under dense fog)
It is currently under test, but it is expected to hit the mainlines within a few years.

First, there were RC switchers un Germany. Now there are in the US. Then, unmanned trins will run in Germany...
It's called progress.

[Anonymous]

Since you are in Germany, have you heard about Cargomover?
It is a fully automated freight train. It has no cab! Just a video camera (plus some other automatic sensing devices that work even under dense fog)
It is currently under test, but it is expected to hit the mainlines within a few years.

First, there were RC switchers un Germany. Now there are in the US. Then, unmanned trins will run in Germany...
It's called progress.

[brilondon]

[:D]There is no way you can replace people [:)]completely in the running of trains. There are too many variables out side of the yards. Even in the yards you still need people to couple and uncouple the cars[8D][:p]. The last time I was at a yard they still needed a person to do this activity. Unless you keep trains in a vacuum there will still be problems that an engineer will have to make snap decisions on. Other variables that need to be considered would be animals on the tracks, debris on the tracks, people on the tracks... You can see that people are going to have to be with the trains.[:D][:p]

[brilondon]

[:D]There is no way you can replace people [:)]completely in the running of trains. There are too many variables out side of the yards. Even in the yards you still need people to couple and uncouple the cars[8D][:p]. The last time I was at a yard they still needed a person to do this activity. Unless you keep trains in a vacuum there will still be problems that an engineer will have to make snap decisions on. Other variables that need to be considered would be animals on the tracks, debris on the tracks, people on the tracks... You can see that people are going to have to be with the trains.[:D][:p]

[Anonymous]

A quick response to the "no man" trains, it has been reported in the past couple of weeks that the massive power failure in the northeast may have been averted if some of the "engineers" had reacted to the actual failure instead of assuming they had a computer failure when the system began to go down.
No matter how good the technology, no matter how fast it reacts, only the human mind can make an intelligent decision and complete an un-programmed action, one that will save a life or avoid an accident.

[Anonymous]

A quick response to the "no man" trains, it has been reported in the past couple of weeks that the massive power failure in the northeast may have been averted if some of the "engineers" had reacted to the actual failure instead of assuming they had a computer failure when the system began to go down.
No matter how good the technology, no matter how fast it reacts, only the human mind can make an intelligent decision and complete an un-programmed action, one that will save a life or avoid an accident.

[Anonymous]

I believe the trains at Expo 67 here in Montreal were 'unmanned' but they were just a shuttle between the two different parts of the site. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Anonymous]

I believe the trains at Expo 67 here in Montreal were 'unmanned' but they were just a shuttle between the two different parts of the site. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Anonymous]

WHAT ARE THEY CRAZY? WHO ARE WE GOING TO WAVE AT? BAD ENOUGH THEY DID AWAY WITH CABOOSE. FRED HAS NEVER WAVED BACK!! SERIOUSLY COMPUTERS ARE GREAT. BUT IF I AM RIDING AT 100 + MPH I'D LIKE TO THINK THERE IS SOME ONE UP FRONT THATS GOING TO GET THERE FIRST. I THINK THAT RADIO CONTROL HAS A PLACE IN YARDS, INDUSTRIAL OR SWITCHING SITUATIONS , BUT NOT ON MAIN LINE TRAINS. HERE'S A THOUGHT, WHY ARE MANY PASSENGER TRAINS RUN WITH ONLY THE ENGINEER IN THE CAB, FREIGHT TRAINS MUST BE MORE VALUABLE THAN PASSENGERS. SEE WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE CAPTAIN OF THE FERRY IN NYC LEFT THE OTHER FELLOW BE HIMSELF. THAT COULD HAPPEN ON A PASSENGER TRAIN AND MOST LIKLY ALREADY HAS.

[Anonymous]

WHAT ARE THEY CRAZY? WHO ARE WE GOING TO WAVE AT? BAD ENOUGH THEY DID AWAY WITH CABOOSE. FRED HAS NEVER WAVED BACK!! SERIOUSLY COMPUTERS ARE GREAT. BUT IF I AM RIDING AT 100 + MPH I'D LIKE TO THINK THERE IS SOME ONE UP FRONT THATS GOING TO GET THERE FIRST. I THINK THAT RADIO CONTROL HAS A PLACE IN YARDS, INDUSTRIAL OR SWITCHING SITUATIONS , BUT NOT ON MAIN LINE TRAINS. HERE'S A THOUGHT, WHY ARE MANY PASSENGER TRAINS RUN WITH ONLY THE ENGINEER IN THE CAB, FREIGHT TRAINS MUST BE MORE VALUABLE THAN PASSENGERS. SEE WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE CAPTAIN OF THE FERRY IN NYC LEFT THE OTHER FELLOW BE HIMSELF. THAT COULD HAPPEN ON A PASSENGER TRAIN AND MOST LIKLY ALREADY HAS.

[Anonymous]

YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT SAFETY WHAT ABOUT A STALLED VEHICLE ON THE TRACKS OR A CHILD/ADULT WALKING TO THE STORE VIA RR TRACKS A COMPUTER CANT SEE THEM AND WEB CAMS ARENT SO PERFECT SO AT LEAST KEEP TWO PEOPLE IN THE CAB

[Anonymous]

YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT SAFETY WHAT ABOUT A STALLED VEHICLE ON THE TRACKS OR A CHILD/ADULT WALKING TO THE STORE VIA RR TRACKS A COMPUTER CANT SEE THEM AND WEB CAMS ARENT SO PERFECT SO AT LEAST KEEP TWO PEOPLE IN THE CAB

[espeefoamer]

I can see RC in the yards but running over the road trains with nobody in the cab has got to be the dumbest idea since abolishing cabooses.[8][:(!][xx(]

[espeefoamer]

I can see RC in the yards but running over the road trains with nobody in the cab has got to be the dumbest idea since abolishing cabooses.[8][:(!][xx(]

[espeefoamer]

By the way,did you see that UP ran another "engineless"train Monday?(Trains Mag Newswire).This one was out of Pocatello Yard.Some railroads never learn![:0][B)][8]

[espeefoamer]

By the way,did you see that UP ran another "engineless"train Monday?(Trains Mag Newswire).This one was out of Pocatello Yard.Some railroads never learn![:0][B)][8]

[Anonymous]

I think it would not work but there would be less desrailments hugh?[:)]

[Anonymous]

I think it would not work but there would be less desrailments hugh?[:)]

[Anonymous]

I to agree with slic[:)][:)] saftey is important

[Anonymous]

I to agree with slic[:)][:)] saftey is important