Radio Safety

[Anonymous]

The day we took the safety test at the tourist line (by "we" I mean "we" brakeman trainees), we got an extremely interesting talk from an FRA inspector who spoke
on the primary causes of railroad fatalities.

He told us a perfectly horrifying tale of a conductor on a UP train who was
killed when he was aligning a coupler and his engineer heard over the radio,
"OK - bring it back" or some similar phrase, and the engineer initiated a shove.
The cause was that the message the engineer heard was from a different
crew (possibly on a different railroad in the same Midwestern town; I won't say
where or when or speculate on the other railroad because I don't recall for
sure and don't want to stir-up any specific memories unnecessarily). The voice
sounded like the engineer's conductor who he'd known and worked with for
many years, and the investigation was sufficiently meticulous to identify the
cause without much room for uncertainty.

The FRA inspector urged us all (even though on our railroad, train crews only
used the radio to communicate with the station master) to use first names or
locomotive numbers or some unique identification word to label each message
such that, for example, instead of, "OK - bring it back" it would be, "OK - bring
it back Jim" or "OK - bring it back ten-eighty-nine.", etc.

Have railroads adopted such policies for intra-crew radio dialogue?

[heavyd]

Oh yes BIG time!!! Most engineers won't move anything until they here their engine or train number. Even using first names is a bad idea because how many Jims or Johns could be working near-by!!!

[csxengineer98]

now with the 3 step and SOFA rules.... we cant move unless the 3 step protection that is applyed is released by the emplyee that asked for it
csx engineer

[edblysard]

ghighland,
I work in a yard, and find myself in the exact same situtation as the conductor you mentioned several times a day.
We are not allowed to enter the "red zone" with out informing our engineer that we are doing so.
We have to use our job ID number, and which mobil we are, 1, 2 or 3.
The engineer must then perform a "set and center", set the brakes, center the reverser, and turn off the generator field, and then inform the ground crew he has done so.
Only then may we enter the red zone to adjust drawbars, tie or take off brakes, open knuckles.
The engineer is not allowed to move the train under any circumstance, untill he hears a clear transmission from the crew member that he, the crew member, has cleared the red zone.
If more than one person has entered the zone, everyone must clear themselves before he will move, and you can not clear another member from the zone, each must clear themselves.

It would go something like this.
If I wished to adjust a drawbar, I would stretch the train at least a car length, to give myself a safe zone to work in.
Before I enter the red zone, (we were taught to call it the dead zone), I would call my engineer and say "mobil 1 on Port job 152, entering the red zone".
I do not enter the zone untill I hear my engineer reply, "Port job 152, engineer, set and centered"
After his reply, I can enter the zone, and know he will not move, reguardless of what instructions he hears, until I clear myself of the zone.

After I finish what work in the zone I need to, I will step out, and call my engineer, and tell him, "mobil 1 on Port job 152, clear of the red zone".

I can then give him a command to move the train, and he will respond.

With at least three yard jobs working on the same channel in the same yard, you have to have some way to protect yourself from unexpected movement.

Using names dosnt work, we have a job with 2 guys on it named Steve, the engineer and the switchman, and another yard job engineer named Steve
also.
So, if someone says "back up Steve, about three cars" and we dont follow the rules, both Steves back up!

You can see the result.

The FRA is big time on the red zone, and the three step protection.

If you dont follow any other rules, follow the radio rules, they will keep you alive, with all your arms, legs, fingers and toes intact.

I am proud to say that the FRA has been on our property several times in the last month, and has complimented us on our emphasis on the three step protection.

The temptation to shorten your radio procedures, or use familar names will get you hurt.
I have worked with the same two or three engineers for the last 7 years, they reconize my voice, I theirs.
And not a one will move without my clearing myself.
They remind me every day, and by doing so, I can work safe.
Stay frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

Ed: That is very interesting - something I can really understand.

Thanx

Mookie

[Anonymous]

Definitely - Ed's description presents a clear picture. Some of us in our safety class,
after we heard the FRA guy's stories on proper radio usage, said amongst ourselves,
"Man! It's a good thing we don't have radios!" (we did what little work we had to do
using hand signals, which, when you think of it on a tourist line with short train
lengths, may have been safer because the engineer had to make eye-to-eye contact
with the brakeman or conductor involved). We had a similar procedure to what Ed
describes regarding "set and centered": When I as the brakeman gave the hand
signal to the engineer I needed to adjust a coupler and attach a brakeline or
whatever, I couldn't move until the engineer acknowledged my request and gave me
the hand signal to proceed. He additionally, after stopping the locomotive and having
taken his hand off the throttle, would give one short toot on the whistle to indicate the
train was fully stopped and his hands off the throttle. I'd then signal I needed to go
in, he'd acknowledge my request and hand-signal me in. When I was finished I'd
make sure he saw I was out and then he'd wait for a signal from to draw-out the
slack or proceed with his move - no movement without proper hand-signalling.

[jchnhtfd]

You run into the same kind of problem -- with potentialy even more catastrophic results (in terms of numbers and headlines, at least) -- in aviation. Everyone is taught (although they don't always do it) to identify themselves on every transmission with their full identification and the full ID of the party to whom they are talking (e.g. 'Kennedy tower, this is Speedbird BOAD, ready for 24L at A' rather than 'AD's ready to go on 24L'. Helps to keep two planes from hitting each other, which can ruin your whole day...

[Mookie]

The old engineer used to tell about being at the head end on a long train and trying to see the conductor's lantern "down the road a piece". What a nice invention the radio is!

Moo

[edblysard]

Ghighland,
I like perfer hand signals over radio usage, it cuts down on the chatter, and it also means my engineer has to be watching me, not the train on another track, or the female cab drivers, or the airplane flying over head.
This also leaves both of my hands free.
Ed

[Anonymous]

That definitely makes sense. I was also struck by the assurances the FRA guy gave
us that a car on the tracks moving at 1 MPH makes no sound and can certainly be
lethal. That's why they taught us to always walk 10 ft. down the track before crossing
behind a car.

What really disgusted me, and I'll blow-off some steam here about it even though this
happened over 6 yrs ago, was one of the three salaried employees of the RR who
is/was the yard master for the RR and who also had the biggest mouth on the RR
too (a chronic blowhard) was witnessed by several of us volunteers doing two
reeeeally dangerous things in one day: 1.) He jumps in between two coach cars just
as he KNEW the locomotive was pushing-in to couple-up and after he'd given the
hand-signals to proceed with the move, just so he could move a brake hose (he
missed being sandwiched by about 6 inches and the station master - a real nice
guy with a lot of RR knowledge and common sense hollared at him about it), and,
2.) He gives the hand-signal to the engineer later to shove a cut of two coaches onto
a siding then jumps around to the other side of the track not 2 ft. from the end of the
last coach and missed getting knocked-over by inches again. This, mind you, is the
same guy who bragged he'd break the knuckles of whoever moved a portable viewing
stand closer to the edge of the platform than the line line on the concrete showed was
the limit (I didn't move it but if I did I guarantee none of my knuckles would've been
broken). A real nice guy to have as a "role model" for trainees.

[rrnut282]

One other thing about radio safety is don't assume the other guys heard you until they respond. I had this reinforced the hard way. We were pushing a long cut of passenger cars and had to rely on radios. As we got closer I gave the engineer the usual 3 cars, two cars, one cars and was confident I was getting through when we started slowing down. When I said that'll do I waited too long to yell that'll do again. I reached over and tried to dump the air when we hit. It tore the knuckle off of the standing car and since then the WVRR has instituted a new policy that states: "the engineer is required to stop when no contact has been made after travelling half of the distance given in the last transmission". We also call for 3point protection and wait for the reply before stepping between the rails.

[mudchicken]

Please also remember that the FCC and FRA ride heard on railroads to make sure railroaders follow the raidio rules including "over" ,"out", identifying your mobile unit and radio ettiquette....The fines can be severe....

[edblysard]

rrnut,
The GCOR rule 2.13
When the radio is used instead of hand signals for backing or shoving movements, information must include the direction and distance to be travled.
Movement must stop within half of the distance specified unless additional instructions are recieved.

If I give my engineer a 10 car count on a shove, and we move five car lengths, without my giving him another car count, he had better be stoping.
If I tell him, when we have moved 4 car lengths, "give me another 6 cars", he will keep on shoving steady, and I will talk him down to the joint.
But if I fail to give him anything more that the original car count, he should stop around halfway.
Ed

[wabash1]

Ed

You are right about the half distance and stop but....... there always seems to be one. and here it goes. suppose you have or are working with a new guy. you never worked with before. either as a engineer or conductor doesnt matter. the big thing is you know your car count and your regular engineer knows how you do it. but someone else wont. in other words if i worked with you i never have i would not know if you are giving me 50 ft 90 ft or 30ft cars/ I know the rules say 50 ft. but everyone measrures differantly. As a rule when i work with a new hire ( im going to pick on them ) I tell them 2 things and is the most important information as a engineer i can give.

1) stay consistant if you are going to use 90ft cars stay at 90 ft dont deviate i will learn this in 1 or 2 moves and wont have any problems.

2) dont change your car count for my speed i will change my speed for your car count . on the first move i will be slow on perpose to understand your counts. after i get use to what you do it will be simple. if i am going faster then you want comming back tell me to slow down. no harm and never call it clear farther than you can see if you can see 2 cars then 2 cars is what you call.

3) there is a third one. there is no shame in telling me to big hole it. wash out dump it . what ever anyone wants to call putting the train in emergency. its better than having a accident. and dont waste time giving train id job id when doing this. it is better having 3 jobs stopped by a emergency application than a accident happening due to radio grammer.

[kenneo]

"Back in the 'Old Days'" on the S, and prior to the FCC getting real hard nosed about procedures, we had to use 3-leg communication and positive ID.

" This is the Engineer on Southern Pacific Train 01LABRT20 calling ....."
" This is Southern Pacific Brooklyn Interlocking Engineer Southern Pacific Train 01LABRT20 ......."
"This is Engineer LABRT, Brooklyn, that is correct. LABRT OUT"
"Brooklyn Interlocking OUT."

If you couldn't clear a signal from CTC into Train Order Territory ... ...
"Southern Pacific Brooklyn Operator to the Engineer of SP Extra 4433 West.
After stopping at the Red Signal displayed for westward trains at the Absolute Signal for diverging rout to the Tillamook Branch, you may check the points, and if lined and locked for movement to the Tillamook Branch, you may proceed at walking speed through the turnout and proceed at restricted speed until the caboose of your train clears the eastward Absolute Signal on Tillamook Branch."
Were the points secured? And if the switch should operate while the train was transiting at least you would olny get one or two cars on the ground.

Generally, the brakeman when going to inspect the points would fine something in them, ask me to ormal the switch, lock and block the controls, he would then remove whatever it was, then I woul unlock and unblock the control, reverse the switch, and usually, they would get their signal and the above longwinded disertation would be cancelled with " SP Brooklyn Interlocking to SP Train Extra 4433 West ... state CTC Rule #'s and repeat the verbage above. Engineer SP Train Extra 4433 West, do you understand?"
"The is Engineer SP Train Extra 4433 West I understand that Rules .......repeating rule number and verbage once again... relating to our move at Willsburg Jct. are cancelled."
"This is SP Brooklyn Operator to Engineer SP Train Extra 4433 West that is correct."

Now if the YM was wanting to give word to the LABRT what was going to happen, the format got a lot simpler since instructions for a train movement were not involved. "SP Brooklyn Yard to Engineer LABRT".
"LABRT"
"Keep comming Main 2 for Yard 8"
"Main 2 for Yard 8. LABRT OUT."
"LABRT, That is correct. Brooklyn Yard OUT."

UNLESS we had a foreign road motor on the point. Then the movement ID would be "Southern Pacific Train 01LABRT20 Extra CNW #### East"

Unless you were giving movement instructions such as the jammed switch illustration above, clear identification of each party given once every 15 minutes of continuous conversation was sufficient. After the first ID round, then you could use "33, back 2 cars to a joint. One Car. Stop." when talking to the Extra 4433 West.

Point is, depends on what you are doing how much difinitive ID you must give. With Ed's having to compete with three yard jobs, he needs to provide more complete information than if he were out 30 miles from the nearest train switching cars. If his sweety at UP DS shack wants him to go through a red to get across the bridge, it's going to be a longwinded "repeat after me" like the switch thing above.

Normal practice for going between cars was for the engineer to set the independent and remove the reverser in its neutral position. Does the same as "set and center" and kill the generator field switch. Then whistle signal "When Stopped, air is equalized" is given (one short).

[JoeUmp]

Ed & Jamie,
Your radio procedures remind me of the military. Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, on a give radio net had a unique call sign that they responded to. When ever anyone called an other unit they had to include their call sign, the reeceiver's call sign and indicate the end of every transmission. It can get really confusing when one ship can have three or four call signs depending on who you want to talk to.

And we didn't use call signs like they used in Top Gun.

Joe

[vguarner]

I hope the following may provide some assistance in the use of radios and be able to prevent any further accidents.

Other radio disciplines, including those used in air traffic control, require each communication to use the identity of the party to whom the message is directed and the identity of the sender. This takes a little longer to complete the 'transaction', but it goes a long way in making sure each person is listening.

Another aspect of this discipline is to confrm the receipt of the message with code words such as "Roger" (I received your message) or "WILCO" (I will comply). But please do not use both keywords in the response. For example, "Conductor 741 toCHLA741 bring it back" to which the engineer would reply "CHLA741 to Conductor 741, wilco"

[Anonymous]

Too me radio traffic should be simple and understanding . in some cases train chatter and communication. can somtimes be confusing and offten misread. we have to give our trains more understanding and less headaches with communication. so that we can keep our trains rolling along safely and responsively...

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by antbro

Too me radio traffic should be simple and understanding . in some cases train chatter and communication. can somtimes be confusing and offten misread. we have to give our trains more understanding and less headaches with communication. so that we can keep our trains rolling along safely and responsively...

I have to admit I have only limited experience with RR comms. I have listened to scanners, but do not own one or do it regularly. But the comms I have heard have been concise and to the point. In both aviation and the military, radio comms are our bread and butter....since the line of sight limitations of visual signalling being what they are. We try to be as concise as possible and try to stay to standardized phraseology...Roger, Over, Wilco, Out..etc. With that, certain words/phrases have exact meanings in both are codified in FAA regulations and military directives so there is no confusion as to the meaning. Since, in the military specifically, some of them have life or death consequences such as the terms Take or Engage......Another example for instance is ATC clearances...they are given in such a manner that all know the format.....Who you are, where you're cleared to, via what route, at what altitude, the transponder code and any amplifying info....ie, "NAVY LL30 is cleared to Bangor, via Augusta then direct, climb and maintain 5000 ft, squawk 4501, on departure contact Brunswick departure on 121.9, over..." then we read it back verbatim to confirm.

[Anonymous]

When I was building the outbound consists for the UP in Roseville, my partner was either my good friend Jack or the service track supervisor. Everyone who had a radio had an identifier. ( RH ( for roundhouse) 1 thru 5) That kept everybody straight.
[angel]
I never ever even had a close call [soapbox]

[Midland524]

Safety First!

[yellowducky]

Well, here's my 2cents over a month later. My computer crashed and I'm slowly getting caught up.
Having worked on the B&O before everyone carried an issued radio, we often used our own CB's. Talk about a nightmare, trying to make a safe move in the rain, in the dark, in Chicago, when everybody was "walking" on you, you didn't catch the Engineer's name when you reported, had no idea what engine # you were suppose to couple to which track of cars. Oh those were the days!
I carry and use a radio everyday at the foundry, and you need to use much the same safety logic. Keep on TRAINing. FDM