gabe wrote: How is a broken section of ribon rail fixed?Do they cut out the section completely and insert a new rail. Or do they just put a joint at the break? I remember in Trains articles where the cold would pull a rail apart, they would use an oil rope to expand the rail, and then affix a joint.It seems that this might not be applicable in other situations tough.Thanks,Gabe
How is a broken section of ribon rail fixed?Do they cut out the section completely and insert a new rail. Or do they just put a joint at the break? I remember in Trains articles where the cold would pull a rail apart, they would use an oil rope to expand the rail, and then affix a joint.
It seems that this might not be applicable in other situations tough.Thanks,Gabe
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
jockellis wrote:Gabe can correct me, but if something tragic had occurred but the railroad could prove that its Standing Operating Procedure required a traffic block but the division officials overrode it, the punitive damages would be lowered somewhat. Without such an SOP, the lawyers would have been rolling in it.
Gabe can correct me, but if something tragic had occurred but the railroad could prove that its Standing Operating Procedure required a traffic block but the division officials overrode it, the punitive damages would be lowered somewhat. Without such an SOP, the lawyers would have been rolling in it.
Yes and no. Your point, of course, is very logical, as the point of punitive damages is to deter conduct on the part of the defendant. If the defendant--a railroad--only engaged in such conduct because an employee was disobeying company policy, the railroad on some levels could get out of punitives altogether.
However, there are other problems:
(1) employers can be held responsible for the wrong acts of their employees, and some states will allow punitive damages to dervie from the employees' conduct itself.
(2) also, there is little rhyme or reason to punitive damages. Thus, it is very difficult to say what conduct necessarily does and does not give rise to punitive damages. With a few notable exceptions, it comes down to how mad the jury gets.
As to the Pinto, Ford's number crunchers concluded that, since most states limit punitive damages to 3 times the amount of actual damages, they would be fine. What they didn't account for, is when juries get really mad at a defendant, they tend to award actual damages that are pretty far out there.
I know I am angering some good red-blooded Americans by saying this, but I will not buy a Ford at any price because of what they did with the Pinto. Gabe
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
Well Gabe,
If you turned away from the easy bucks to do the right thing and follow your conscience, then you fall into that category of men we don't often see any more, those known as Gentleman.
Having kids can do that to you!
Keep posting the interesting questions; these are the ones that keep us coming back.
By the way, how is the short version?
gabe wrote: Thanks Ed and Larry, that means more to me than you might think. Most of the time I don't care when people think I am a jerk just because of my occupation, but there are times when it anoys me simply because it demonstrates the failure of our education system to explain why the world works the way it does.And Ed, once, I was a contender . . . .Gabe
Thanks Ed and Larry, that means more to me than you might think. Most of the time I don't care when people think I am a jerk just because of my occupation, but there are times when it anoys me simply because it demonstrates the failure of our education system to explain why the world works the way it does.
And Ed, once, I was a contender . . . .
Gabe
23 17 46 11
youngengineer wrote: Gabe I owe you an apology, i reread your first post and I understand what you are saying. I have always read many of your posts on here and you do seem to be an upstanding guy. The comment was out of frustration not meant as personal attack on you. I have known and still know many lawyers and I am friends with a few. I do understand how the law works, I just think sometimes our first thought is how much money can I make, not wether this is the right course of action. The few have ruined what is an honorable pursuit. The reason for flagging the crossings is due to the fact that there is a known defect of the crossing gates and the defect is unknown. The train could arrive at that location and all of a sudden the gates dont work at all, or frustrated motorists could be running the gates because no train has come for awhile, many different scenarios as to what may be happening.
Gabe I owe you an apology, i reread your first post and I understand what you are saying. I have always read many of your posts on here and you do seem to be an upstanding guy. The comment was out of frustration not meant as personal attack on you. I have known and still know many lawyers and I am friends with a few. I do understand how the law works, I just think sometimes our first thought is how much money can I make, not wether this is the right course of action. The few have ruined what is an honorable pursuit.
The reason for flagging the crossings is due to the fact that there is a known defect of the crossing gates and the defect is unknown. The train could arrive at that location and all of a sudden the gates dont work at all, or frustrated motorists could be running the gates because no train has come for awhile, many different scenarios as to what may be happening.
Appology accepted, thanks for the crossing explanation, and, as I stated above, my frustration is directed at societal attitudes rather than you.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that "principle" seldom trumps "principal" in the eyes of a lawyer. But, try to remember, railroads--and just about any business that I have ever dealt with--do not wake up in the morning and say, "how can I make the world a better place." No, they wake up and say, "what is the most efficient, legal way I can make money."
For some reason, society largely accepts a railroad with this behavior, but does not accept it from a lawyer.
If NS is doing something we disaprove of, it is because we as a nation have passed laws that allow as much or are not enforcing the laws that would otherwise prevent such behavior. Lawyers are no different.
As FM often demonstrates, not all of us like the way railroads choose to go about their business; but, as a result thereof, we have a railway system that is both profitable and probably on par with that of any country in the world.
Similarly, you may not like the way lawyers do what they do, but ask yourself, does Ford no longer build Pintos because they are not profitable or because of lawyers?I am not saying it is right, or wrong; I am just saying it is the way we made it. If you don't like it, vote.
Gabe,
Second hand testimony?
Question 1: Where did the rail break?
Was the break at the weld proper, before or after the weld?
I doubt the weld itself failed, the material used in the process is harder than the steel rail, and from what I have seen, rarely fails.
The rail can and does break just before or after the weld from fatigue or other causes.
As to why the rail broke, with no way to test the rail itself, or see what conditions are at the break, we would all be guessing.
Question 2: Not necessary, I have switched over a broken rail for a few minutes before I noticed the break...this stuff is pretty tough, and as long as it stays in gauge, odds are any train running over the break will only notice a bump when the wheels hit the end of the facing broken rail.
I found the break in our switching lead with my ears.
I kept hearing a click in a location where the sound had not been before, went to investigate, and found a clean through fatigue break.
If, as you say, the area is well maintained, then the ties will do their job and hold the gauge, so the last train over the break might have caused the break, or might just have compounded an existing break, but it wouldn't necessarily derail.
3: Mr Hadid and other have answered that quite thoroughly...and as was pointed out, rail circuits do goofy things.
4: If it broke the circuit, and depending on the type of signaling, yes.
Signal systems are designed for failsafe operations, when the system fails, it will show the most restrictive aspect to the train crews.
This does not mean the dispatcher will see anything on their board or monitor, but a crew will radio in telling them they are looking at a red board where there should not be one, so the dispatcher will know there is a problem quite soon on a busy line.
5: Pretty sure the trainmaster did decide to send someone to check, (this would be the normal protocol) but also decided at the same time that the problems were circuit related, and didn't want to stop the traffic due to a bum signal box or broken bond wire.
Without the trainmaster here to defend himself, and answer more detailed question, all we can do is second guess his decision.
As for the gates being down, you, as an attorney, already know that is an invitation for motorist to drive around them, especially if they don't see a train anywhere near.( and even when they do)
NORAC and GCOR rules take this into consideration and the rule requires the crew to flag the crossing, with a crew member on the ground to warn motorist.
This is a time consuming process, slows everything down horribly, but is done out of self preservation.
Lastly, as to your comment/ reply about being money grubbing, even 8 feet on the other side of the grass...I have read most of your threads and posting, and have come away with the conclusion that you are one of the rare attorneys out there who view the practice of law as a tool to administer justice, right wrongs, defend the defenseless and hold those responsible for breaking our laws up to the light of justice, instead of worrying about making your first million.
You might not be a rich attorney, but you are a good one, in both senses of the word.
After seeing a video a while back of a short section of rail that was completely disconnected from the ties (and was in fact flopping around with the passage of each wheelset), I would not doubt for a moment that a reasonably well spiked/clipped section of track with a broken weld might survive for a fair period of time. I have heard the track foremen in this area on the scanner after discovering such problems during their regular inspections. They take the track out of service, the track department comes out and does their thing, and life goes on...
(5) ...deep down--even 8 feet--I am still a money-grubing jerk.
I have my doubts on that....
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Guys you are missing a few things:(1) If the crossing gates are down, why would they flag the crossings? I could see restrictive speeds, but it seems kind of silly to say universally-recognized arm bars with bells and blinking lights will not cause a car to exercise caution . . . but oh, a waving guy in an orange vest . . .
(2) The dispatcher clearly thought there was a safety problem. I will be the first to admit I have less knowledge than most on here. But, if I am standing near a track and see a broken rail with a train coming, the first thing through my mind will be "feet don't fail me now."
(3) Was there necessarily a red light for restricted speed? What if the rail was broken but still touching?
(4) I am sorry, but I don't care what the technical rules are. If there is injury, death, and or/destruction of property after a railroad was told there might be a problem by local law enforcement and the dispatcher and trains proceed anyway, any two-bit lawyer could sell that to a jury with punitive damages to boot. I am telling you, if a major derailment happened on those facts, that would be an absolute feeding frenzy of litigation. Those are the kind of facts some lawyers dream about.
(5) Youngengineer, deep down--even 8 feet--I am still a money-grubing jerk.
Having re-read the initial scenario...and Gabe through no fault of your own you are missing some information...
Did the Dispatcher show a track circuit down and did he indicate this to the Trainmaster? If there was a track circuit down all the wayside signal would drop to their most restrictive aspect.
Was the only indication of trouble the crossing gates? Crossing gates can and do malfunction, as well as being subject to vandalism. To me, having all 5 gates down would definitely be an indication of bigger problem.
However, absent a clear sign of broken rail...there is no reason to stop traffic. The real reason the DS wanted to stop traffic was probably to avoid the hassle of having everyone stop and flag all five crossings.
Also, there are places where track circuits will flicker on and off, especially in areas of high water.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Grade-crossing signals: There's many different ways that adjacent grade-crossing signals can be linked or not linked. If the grade-crossing signals are daxed together (downstream adjacent crossing), but are not equipped with grade-crossing predictors (GCP), then when one activates, the grade-crossing signals it is daxed to activate as well. If each crossing has a GCP and the GCP in the one that has a broken rail in its circuit shows no relative motion, then the daxed crossings will not activate (or may activate and then when the first GCP shows no relative motion, they will deactivate). If the break occurs in the island circuit then the gates are coming down on that crossing, period.
In other words there is no single rule of thumb.
Wayside signals: A broken rail may not shunt the track circuit unless it's a clean pull-apart. In my experience, these days, most rails that are "found" by a train also end up derailing the train. It seems more common that way than to have one left behind a train. Our rule has always been that anytime a train leaves a track light behind it, stop all movements over that block and call the roadmaster and signal maintainer. This is why it is so crucial to run detector cars on a regular basis.
S. Hadid
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Sometimes the line becomes a bit tortuos on cold nights, like we see here in this picture taken by a friend of mine that works at FCA rwy. We call it the "hook".
Pedro
Normal progression from good track to broken rail when viewed by the Dispatcher.
1. Signal lined for train through track segment.
2. Train operates through track segment at normal speeds
3. Train exits into the next track segment.
4. Track circuit on Dispatcher's model board stays on after train has departed the segment.
5. Signal Department and Roadway are notified of the existance of a track circuit staying on.
6. Signal mantiner or Track inspector (or both) find broken rail and make determination if traffic can pass over it until the necessary men and materials can be assembled for a permant repair.
7. Prior to the arrival of either the maintainer or track inspector, traffic will continue to move over the affected segment in accordance with the Rules at restricted speed.
If the siganl is displaying red, a train must travel at restricted speed passed that signal to the next signal, one of the parts of restricted speed would be to look out for broken rail. Also since the dispatcher knows the crossings are malfunctioning the crew would recieve notice of this and would have to protect the crossings per the rules, depending on the malfunction depends on the set of rules, so the train would be at a slow speed and watching out for anything unusual. As far as a field day with a lawyer, well if the traincrew the dispatcher and trainmaster followed the rules i dont see why you would have a case, i just think the lawyers should stay out of it.
BTW why do they bury lawyers 8 feet under, because deep down they are really nice people!
sorry I just hate when someone wants to jump to the conclusion that railroaders and railroad managers are idiots and would intentionally put a towns population in harms way, you may think we are dumb but for the most part 99% of us are professional and follow the rules. Besides our families live in these same communities.
While the crossing signals and track circuits are separate a broken or pulled apart rail had better cause the signals for the trains to display stop or the FRA will not be very happy.
It is not always possible to send a signal maintainer out to check the signals immediately account of the limited number of maintainers and their hours of service requirements. Malfunctioning crossing signals have a priority but the sad fact is there are not enough maintainers employed by the railroads now and they are mostly stretched to the limit by their normal duties and call outs to take care of problems.
gabe wrote:I was recently told a pretty interesting--and fortunate--story from back home.My home town of Mt. Olive, Illinois is served by the Norfolk Southern on the ex Wabash Decatur-St. Louis line. It is a very busy line. I would say about 20-30 trains a day.Well anyway, my Dad (or one of his friends) was listening to the scanners, and the Mt. Olive police called the dispatcher and said, "hey, something goofy is going on, all of the crossings in town are down, but there hasn't been a train for about 30 minutes."The dispatcher then got with the trainmaster (or someone else on the railroad), which eventually led to "well you're the trainmaster, and you can do what you want as boss, but, if it were me, I would stop the trains." To whcih, I the trainmaster said, "OK, you convinced me, but it is probably nothing, and I am going to catch he!! for this."Really good thing too, as it turns out, the ribon rail had pulled apart near one of the crossings. Apparently, there was not enough ballast under it, which caused it to pull appart.Questions:(1) This is a fairly well maintained line, with 60 mph freights and what seems like ample ballast. If lack of ballast can pull apart a weld on a heavy duty rail on this line, shouldn't it be happening all over the country on less maintained lines? This is especially true, when it is considered that there aren't a lot of heavy coal trains on this line.
I was recently told a pretty interesting--and fortunate--story from back home.
My home town of Mt. Olive, Illinois is served by the Norfolk Southern on the ex Wabash Decatur-St. Louis line. It is a very busy line. I would say about 20-30 trains a day.
Well anyway, my Dad (or one of his friends) was listening to the scanners, and the Mt. Olive police called the dispatcher and said, "hey, something goofy is going on, all of the crossings in town are down, but there hasn't been a train for about 30 minutes."
The dispatcher then got with the trainmaster (or someone else on the railroad), which eventually led to "well you're the trainmaster, and you can do what you want as boss, but, if it were me, I would stop the trains." To whcih, I the trainmaster said, "OK, you convinced me, but it is probably nothing, and I am going to catch he!! for this."
Really good thing too, as it turns out, the ribon rail had pulled apart near one of the crossings. Apparently, there was not enough ballast under it, which caused it to pull appart.
Questions:
(1) This is a fairly well maintained line, with 60 mph freights and what seems like ample ballast. If lack of ballast can pull apart a weld on a heavy duty rail on this line, shouldn't it be happening all over the country on less maintained lines? This is especially true, when it is considered that there aren't a lot of heavy coal trains on this line.
There are a lot of this that you might consider "poorly" maintained, that would have no effect on causing the rails to pull apart. Most likely it was not "lack" of ballast, but rather disturbed ballast or poorly tamped ballast that caused the break. The forces created by temperature changes in the rail are constrained by secure fasteners and ties well embedded in the ballast.
(2) How is it that the last train to cross this rail did not derail? I would think a rail pulled appart would almost certainly derail a trian--especially as fast as they tend to move trains on this line. Surely a train going over the weld is what casued it to split.
More likely it was a comparatively rapid temperature change, on the day in question. It is more common for welds to break because of contraction of rails in colder weather, somewhat less common in hotter weather (usually you get Sun Kinks), and relatively uncommon for welds to break under trains (although the passage of trains may contribute). Rails do break under trains due to poor metallurgy (defects in rails).
(3) There are about 5 crossings in town spaced out in a little under a mile, how would this make all of the corssings go off?
The fact that all the crossings are close together is why they all went down, a train at the location of the break would also set off all the crossings.
(4) Would this cause a red light on the line.
Not necessarily, the two systems work independently, and must not interfere with each other. As such each system uses a different frequency of current, and depending on type may totally different.
(5) I feel like I am not doing my job as a lawyer. I would think that any time there is a problem that could possibly cause a 40-car pile up of trains carrying hazardous chemicals, they would automatically stop the train--if for no other reason, out of fear of a billion dollar lawsuit to say nothing of the safety of the crew. If the trainmaster had decided to run the trains anyway, and people had died, that would have been a lawyer's feeding frenzy. Why didn't the trainmaster automatically decide to send someone to check it out and stop the trains instead of arguing about it?
Ok a few things here, first the signal maintainer is going to be sent to check out the problem, no matter what. The only real question is whether the trains have to be stopped until the inspection is complete. I am going to guess here that the line is Automatic Block Signalled and uses Track Warrants, so the Dispatcher can't tell whether the signals are Red or not. If this is the case the first train to approach the area will will find the signals at Red and will contact the Dispatcher, the Dispatcher knowing about the other problem with the crossing signals will tell the train crew to stay put until the Signal Maintainer can investigate. It is not unusual for crossing signals to fail or be vandalized, although multiple crossings are unusual. If the problem was only with the crossing signals it would be safe for the train to proceed as long as extra precautions are taken at each crossing. There are standard precautions listed in the rulebook for this and the Dispatcher will issue orders for each train to carry out the required proceedures, until the Signal Maintainer has inspected and repaired the crossing signals and informed the Dispatcher that the precautions are no longer necessary.
Any number of things can cause broken rail...bad weld, sudden change in temperature, a car with high impact forces (flat spots, built up tread).
Just because the rail broke doesn't mean the train will derail, particularly, if the speed is slow, or that train broke the weld.
The crossing probably triggered, because the broken rail dropped the track circuit for the crossings. The crossings were fooling into thinking a train was coming. It would also drop the signals to there most restrictive setting.
They discussed it, because there are also a number of reasons a track circuit can go down...broken bond wires, excessive moisture in the ballast, tampering.
I'm sure MC or Mr. Hadid can enlighten us some more.
gabe wrote: I was recently told a pretty interesting--and fortunate--story from back home.My home town of Mt. Olive, Illinois is served by the Norfolk Southern on the ex Wabash Decatur-St. Louis line. It is a very busy line. I would say about 20-30 trains a day.Well anyway, my Dad (or one of his friends) was listening to the scanners, and the Mt. Olive police called the dispatcher and said, "hey, something goofy is going on, all of the crossings in town are down, but there hasn't been a train for about 30 minutes."The dispatcher then got with the trainmaster (or someone else on the railroad), which eventually led to "well you're the trainmaster, and you can do what you want as boss, but, if it were me, I would stop the trains." To whcih, I the trainmaster said, "OK, you convinced me, but it is probably nothing, and I am going to catch he!! for this."Really good thing too, as it turns out, the ribon rail had pulled apart near one of the crossings. Apparently, there was not enough ballast under it, which caused it to pull appart.Questions:(1) This is a fairly well maintained line, with 60 mph freights and what seems like ample ballast. If lack of ballast can pull apart a weld on a heavy duty rail on this line, shouldn't it be happening all over the country on less maintained lines? This is especially true, when it is considered that there aren't a lot of heavy coal trains on this line.(2) How is it that the last train to cross this rail did not derail? I would think a rail pulled appart would almost certainly derail a trian--especially as fast as they tend to move trains on this line. Surely a train going over the weld is what casued it to split.(3) There are about 5 crossings in town spaced out in a little under a mile, how would this make all of the corssings go off?(4) Would this cause a red light on the line.(5) I feel like I am not doing my job as a lawyer. I would think that any time there is a problem that could possibly cause a 40-car pile up of trains carrying hazardous chemicals, they would automatically stop the train--if for no other reason, out of fear of a billion dollar lawsuit to say nothing of the safety of the crew. If the trainmaster had decided to run the trains anyway, and people had died, that would have been a lawyer's feeding frenzy. Why didn't the trainmaster automatically decide to send someone to check it out and stop the trains instead of arguing about it?Gabe
(3) There are about 5 crossings in town spaced out in a little under a mile, how would this make all of the corssings go off?(4) Would this cause a red light on the line.
(5) I feel like I am not doing my job as a lawyer. I would think that any time there is a problem that could possibly cause a 40-car pile up of trains carrying hazardous chemicals, they would automatically stop the train--if for no other reason, out of fear of a billion dollar lawsuit to say nothing of the safety of the crew. If the trainmaster had decided to run the trains anyway, and people had died, that would have been a lawyer's feeding frenzy. Why didn't the trainmaster automatically decide to send someone to check it out and stop the trains instead of arguing about it?Gabe
Rail will do goofy things I have never seen rail pull apart from lack of ballast, Im not saying its not possible just not seen it. the last train over didnt derail as it may have broke after they cleared it. just because a rail brakes dont mean you will derail. and yes a broken rail will set the signals to the most restrictive signal they have. And yes if the trainmaster would have said run trains and someone would have got hurt they would have just hit the railroad lottery jackpot.
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