Only an evil, heartless person would rebuild the poorly conceived public housing projects.
The reason why the public housing failed because there were no shops, hydroponic gardens, and light industry. If you can fit entrepreneural opportunities in the housing for during the Olympics and after the Games, then they will work. No business is no business.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Point of consideration: Chicago does have some experience in this matter as it was the host city for the Pan American Games in 1959, being a late replacement for Cleveland, I believe. While I will concede that the Pan Am Games are appreciably smaller than the Olympics, Chicago managed to pull this off by using existing facilities only. Los Angeles also managed to accomplish a similar feat with the 1984 Olympics. The IOC seems to be enamored of big projects and oversized arenas, and there isn't too much that any prospective host city can do about that.
Soccer also would have an excellent venue at Toyota Park, home of the Chicago Fire.
There actually rockets poised for take off in a rusting display of 1964 technology that will never lift off from the now overgrown Flushing Meadows site. This photograph is an unintentional illustration of what could be the aftermath of a long ago party. There are also photos of escalators still frozen in their reflective stainless steel steps full of debris. Arcades boarded up. There have been many a brain storming session to reuse these facilities and all have been consigned to the wastebin. I was there in 1964 and it is absolutely erie to recognize the once teeming facilities full of life as now either concrete shells, placards to pointing to nothing, or abstract monuments to an economic hangover. Buyer beware.
The Athens Olympic Hangover http://reti.blogspot.com/2004/09/olympic-hangover.html
Beijing Olympic Stadiums built in a country with no national sports. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070406/sp_wl_afp/oly2008chnlegacyvenues_070406070651
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
I have to agree that large sums are spent on facilities that often become white elephants after the event is over.
Your photo is a perfect example. There are two perfectly good intergalactic space ships that have sat for decades and never been used. And with today's gasoline prices I don't expect them to get off the earth anytime soon.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
I was recently rummaging around industrial archeology sites and took a vitual tour of what was once the site of the 1965 World's Fair. I suggest it as a manditory visit to the powers that be in Chicago with the caveat, "be careful what you wish for, you may get what you want, it may not be what you need." The history of World's Fairs and Olympics seem to have a common thread of enormous infrastructure additions that cannot be accurately described as improvements to existing structures but entire quasi-communities, which after the celebrations, either become abandoned or under utilized and fall prey to the elements as long term maintenace and care become boat anchors on the local economy. The challenge will be to build wisely as some have, in that these structures have some dual purpose built into them at the onset of this rush to beat the clock.. The Space Needle comes to mind. Transit and public transportaion will likely see heavy planning but I do not foresee any mega projects in that realm either being required or desirable, beyond enormous planning and labor costs. As much as I love my hometown, the competition is pretty stiff and the other venues, for the most part have some impressive transport capabilities of their own, as well as having some that incorporate some significant breathing room in comparison to Chicago. If I were in charge of the purse strings, I would take a pass..and spend the money on taking care of what I have and need. There isnt much hoopla to be gained by that, but it would have a longer shelf life.
ndbprr wrote:With some of the locations "Da Mayor" has chosen supplying the attendees with suffficient police protection will be more important then how they get there. Illinois is over 150 bilion dollars in debt and growing. My tax return from the feds was in the bank and the state response on their web site about tax returns was saying allow ten weeks from the time they acknowledge receipt of the return. Both were mailed the same day. Apparently Kansas City is closer to Chicago then Springfield. Anybody who has been in Chicago for the annual marathon knows the city comes to a halt and is one massive traffic jam. Expect that times ten IF they win the olympics. I am out of Illinois at the first opportunity. It is not friendly toward business. The pols keep spending what the don't have and won't stop. Their only solution is more taxes and it ain't their money!
1. Don't worry about the debt. You won't be asked to pay it off all by yourself.
2. Snail mail tax returns? Electronic filing would get your Illinois refund in about a week.
3. Good luck on finding a place to live with lower tax rates. Bangladesh comes to mind.
IIRC the Illinois Central exhibited No.638, the "world's largest locomotive", a brand new 2-8-0 there. One of the IC engineers temporarily assigned to Chicagoland to run commuter trains to and from the fair became so enamored of the engine that he was somehow able to finagle the IC to assign it to him as his personal engine after the Fair. The engineer?? John Luther "Casey" Jones...who oddly enough, was mated in history to no. 382, the IC 4-6-0 that he was running to cover for another engineer's illness when he was killed in an accident in 1900.
BTW it's possible if there is a Chicago Olympics that some soccer events will be held in Mpls / St.Paul MN - so maybe a special run of the Empire Builder to move people is possible??
Jclass, there are ways that Metra--and Amtrak--could seize the opportunity, as I described earlier, but from the sound of the article you quoted it looks like they'll depend more on buses. I guess I'm not totally grasping the Olympic event, because I still see it being more like a football game (or maybe several games) in terms of spectator capacity, rather than an evente like the Taste where crowds come and go all day. Is the public really going to be able to hop on a bus, get to the stadium, and go home when it's all over? I doubt it--those seats and skyboxes are going to be filled with dignitaries from the countries involved (coming in dedicated buses or limos), friends and relatives of the Olympians (same thing), and members of the media with their own support vehicles. Whatever seating capacity is left will probably be handled well by shuttle buses.
Jay, at least in my experience the extra trains Metra operates for larger events or early holiday schedules are merely reshuffling of existing schedules--for each of those extras, a normal rush-hour train is annulled.
Someone said last night that when the Federal government becomes involved (i.e., assuming Chicago gets the nod), their involvement will be mainly along the lines of transportation and security. I'm sure that if Chicago wanted D.M.U. shuttles instead of buses, it could be arranged, and there would be uses for the cars after the games are over. But investments in railroad systems or highways specifically for the Olympics will probably not happen--these things are things that should be done anyway as part of the evolution of the transportation system.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
If Chicago gets the 2019 Olympics, no doubt the public transit systems will be put to the test. With some good planning they might do a very good job moving the crowds. Consider this. In the hours between the morning and evening peak commuter traffic movement, maybe 50% or more of the equipment is sitting idle. There is a huge amount of public transit capacity available for people that don't need to be some place around 8:00am and leave to go home at 5:00pm. I think that there will be added trains and buses scheduled for "daytime" operations. I wouldn't be an unusual step. Service is often beefed up for special events such as the annual Taste of Chicago. Take that effort plus special park and ride operations with shuttle buses and the crowds will get to events in good shape.
I don't know how well things played out in Atlanta, but that town has just a smattering of public rail transit service. No doubt many regular commuters also took some vacation time during the games. My bet is that there won't be that much in the way of infrastructure expansion.
If Chicago gets the games, I hope the rails seize the opportunity.
From today's Sun-Times:
One thing that will not change is the decision to build a stadium in a sea of green without parking lots.
"The idea about the Olympic movement is not building parking lots. It's a legacy that you want to build. It isn't a parking lot. That's why you use public transportation," Daley said.
"Any Olympics you go to, you don't see people driving...When I went to Atlanta, you took buses. It didn't matter who you were. They drove the buses up there. You went through security and you went to the sites. It worked out very well."
Dedicated bus lanes will make it work, just as they did when Chicago hosted the 1996 Democratic National Convention, said Doug Arnot, director of sports and operations for Chicago 2016.
"We provide an Olympic transport system that supplements the existing transit system in the city -- with shuttles, with park-and-rides. That's how people get to the Games....This is not like going to a Bears game. This is not like going to a Sox game or a Cubs game. You don't drive your car there. You take...the Olympic system," he said.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/343626,CST-NWS-olymp16.article
Poppa_Zit wrote:I do have a broadband connection -- 4000K down, 400K up. But I also just spent my entire allowance for the next two years on a 62-inch HDTV.The Internet as a broadcast medium still has a long way to go, although maybe by 2016 who knows what the technology will be? I just got through watching the early hours of the Masters last week on my laptop monitor, an Internet streaming video that plays on a teenie-weenie screen the size of a business card. With this HDTV expense still hovering, I have absolutely no interest in watching any more programming on that same eye-straining mini-screen. And I doubt most Internet providers can/would set aside the massive bandwidth required to see a clear, full-screen laptop telecast.However, I would look forward to them using all of the channels you mention.
I do have a broadband connection -- 4000K down, 400K up. But I also just spent my entire allowance for the next two years on a 62-inch HDTV.
The Internet as a broadcast medium still has a long way to go, although maybe by 2016 who knows what the technology will be? I just got through watching the early hours of the Masters last week on my laptop monitor, an Internet streaming video that plays on a teenie-weenie screen the size of a business card. With this HDTV expense still hovering, I have absolutely no interest in watching any more programming on that same eye-straining mini-screen. And I doubt most Internet providers can/would set aside the massive bandwidth required to see a clear, full-screen laptop telecast.
However, I would look forward to them using all of the channels you mention.
Why such a small picture? Watching Bahn TV I just open this link directly into Windows Media Player without a browser window being open. It gives me about a 8" X 10" screen, with adequate resolution. Or I can increase to full screeen with a bit fuzzier picture. Just paste the link into the "Open URL" box.
SactoGuy188 wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: I'd hope it comes here for one very good reason -- I've grown tired of NBC's Dick Ebersol insisting on showing 99 percent of the (last few) Olympics on a tape-delay basis, even from halfway around the world. Would I set an alarm for 4 a.m. to watch the U.S. hockey team play the Russians for a medal LIVE? Or the U.S. women's softball team go for the gold? You bet! Knowing the results ahead of time knocks all the glitter off the games for me. If you have a broadband connection, NBC announced that they plan to show as many events from Beijing as possible live using streaming video; there could be as many as 30+ live streaming feeds available. Also, they've reached an agreement with the Olympic committee in Beijing that many events will be broadcast in the morning local time to better accommdate live broadcasts in the evening hours in the USA. Finally, NBC plans to use MSNBC, CNBC, USA Network, and Bravo channel to do live broadcasts also.
Poppa_Zit wrote: I'd hope it comes here for one very good reason -- I've grown tired of NBC's Dick Ebersol insisting on showing 99 percent of the (last few) Olympics on a tape-delay basis, even from halfway around the world. Would I set an alarm for 4 a.m. to watch the U.S. hockey team play the Russians for a medal LIVE? Or the U.S. women's softball team go for the gold? You bet! Knowing the results ahead of time knocks all the glitter off the games for me.
I'd hope it comes here for one very good reason -- I've grown tired of NBC's Dick Ebersol insisting on showing 99 percent of the (last few) Olympics on a tape-delay basis, even from halfway around the world. Would I set an alarm for 4 a.m. to watch the U.S. hockey team play the Russians for a medal LIVE? Or the U.S. women's softball team go for the gold? You bet! Knowing the results ahead of time knocks all the glitter off the games for me.
If you have a broadband connection, NBC announced that they plan to show as many events from Beijing as possible live using streaming video; there could be as many as 30+ live streaming feeds available. Also, they've reached an agreement with the Olympic committee in Beijing that many events will be broadcast in the morning local time to better accommdate live broadcasts in the evening hours in the USA. Finally, NBC plans to use MSNBC, CNBC, USA Network, and Bravo channel to do live broadcasts also.
To be sure, Chicago needs a Huge investment in transportation improvements Without the Games. What Chicago don't need is more hotel rooms, & more sprawl. For the "summer games", wonder how far they'd go to outsource events? Hope nobody paddles on the Chicago River!
To make this happen, can you see Da Mayor in Washington with tin cup in hand. He better hope the Dems get a President to get them plenty of dough. Get Rosty back on Ways & Means to be sure da new High Tax go to Chicago, not New York. Could be a deal to put Obama at the top of the ticket.
The High Speed Rail folks have had a plan to do HSR with Chicago as a hub. No reason why Detroit-Indy-St Louis-Milwaukee etc can't be suburbs of Chicago. He may even want to build a Peotone Airport if he can't do O'Hare & Midway over?
CShaveRR wrote: When it comes to incoming passengers/sightseers, I suspect that the Games couldn't even use that kind of transportation. There won't be enough room for large audiences, and those that can afford to get in will not be traveling by something as mundane as commuter rail (I hope they have enough limousine parking planned for Marquette Park and the lakefront!).I haven't seen details of the "package" Chicago offered, but suspect that transportation ranked pretty low among the things offered and considered, so far. Keep in mind that this was just the American competition--Chicago has merely become the venue that the U.S. Olympic Committee is now throwing out to the rest of the universe. We have 2.5 years to wait until the decision is made. At that point, if transportation is required, perhaps Federal monies can be leveraged for projects that will have a lasting impact.I don't think CREATE will do anything for the 2016 Games if they land here. The ironic thing is that if it were necessary, commuter service could be established between the Lakefront area and western and southwestern suburbs using BNSF, UP West, and RI lines with little difficulty, and possibly other western and northern lines if the CN through route is built according to plan. But that would have to be done over the St. Charles Air Line, which "Hizzoner Da Mare" has been pushing to have torn up.So, PZ, am I right in speculating that the only transportation infrastructure refinements Chicago will need are whatever it takes to keep the media from harping on the horrendous problems they had in moving from place to place?
When it comes to incoming passengers/sightseers, I suspect that the Games couldn't even use that kind of transportation. There won't be enough room for large audiences, and those that can afford to get in will not be traveling by something as mundane as commuter rail (I hope they have enough limousine parking planned for Marquette Park and the lakefront!).
I haven't seen details of the "package" Chicago offered, but suspect that transportation ranked pretty low among the things offered and considered, so far. Keep in mind that this was just the American competition--Chicago has merely become the venue that the U.S. Olympic Committee is now throwing out to the rest of the universe. We have 2.5 years to wait until the decision is made. At that point, if transportation is required, perhaps Federal monies can be leveraged for projects that will have a lasting impact.
I don't think CREATE will do anything for the 2016 Games if they land here. The ironic thing is that if it were necessary, commuter service could be established between the Lakefront area and western and southwestern suburbs using BNSF, UP West, and RI lines with little difficulty, and possibly other western and northern lines if the CN through route is built according to plan. But that would have to be done over the St. Charles Air Line, which "Hizzoner Da Mare" has been pushing to have torn up.
So, PZ, am I right in speculating that the only transportation infrastructure refinements Chicago will need are whatever it takes to keep the media from harping on the horrendous problems they had in moving from place to place?
You got it. The international media has the potential to be the biggest bunch of complainers, even over a free lunch. For some unknown reason the media feels that the general public has a need to know about a few writers' and broadcasters' logistics problems. Go figure.
The transportation systems in place 114 years ago wouldn't be apt for an Olympics, should it actually come here. That's because the Columbian Exposition was static, occupying some 1500 acres proximal to each other. The Olympic venues will be spread out from north to south, and if certain greedy aldermen (is that redundant?) get their way the slices of pie will be everywhere. The potential for graft with this type of mega-project would be untold. The Mayor's construction buddies are drooling over the prospects, and so is anyone related to a Chicago politician.
The "expressways" (for lack of a more truthful name) would need expansion and updating. It will be interesting to see where Da Mayor goes fishing for the funds. The state of Illinois is broke. And I can't remember the last time King Richard brought in a project on time and at budget. Millennium Park? A $200 million cost overrun --- that's $400 million for a park!
I shall keep the confetti and the noisemakers stored away. People seem to forget we ain't won nuthin' yet. And if you think big dough has been spent getting this far, wait until you see the price tag for wooing the international panel that will make the final decision. (Maybe Da Mayor could send his bagmen to visit each person with a vote, and buy the election. That would be The Chicago Way, eh?
Right now, though, I feel the same as I did waiting for that pop foul to return to earth along the third base line when the Cubs were -- what? -- five outs away from the World Series?
PZ
After $3 gazillion spent on improving transportation capacity in time for the Olympics, here are the recommendations for travel to and from events.
1. Leave yesterday.
2. Make no early dinner plans.
3. Stop whining. The thing will be over in a couple of weeks.
When it comes to incoming passengers/sightseers, I suspect that the Games couldn't even use that kind of transportation. There won't be enough room for large audiences, and those that can afford to get in will not be traveling by something as mundane as commuter rail (I hope they have enough limousine parking planned for Washington Park and the lakefront!).
Regarding the 1893 Columbian Exposition (World's Fair) in Chicago:
The railroads played a huge part in getting customers to the site, which was along the lake front at about 57th street and extended west along the Midway Plaisance (through what is now the University of Chicago's expanded campus). In the months it was open the World's Fair drew 27.5 million people; the admission was 50 cents ($10.82 in today's dollars). The biggest attraction was the world's first Ferris Wheel -- 250 feet in height ... and a new food item known as the "hot dog."
The South Side Rapid Transit line (aka "the Alley L") was built just in time to run fairgoers from the Downtown area to the exposition. It had not yet been converted to electric, so the 4-4-0 Baldwin-built Forneys were kept very busy. (photo below) There was no facility to turn the locomotives around at either end of the line. When one train arrived, the passenger cars were uncoupled from the locomotive. Then the locomotive that brought in the previous train came off a special crossover track and hooked up to the rear of the newly arrived train and pulled it tender first to the other end of the line, where the process was repeated. As soon as a train pulled out, the original locomotive ran onto the crossover arrangement and awaited the next arriving train. South Side Rapid Transit Line trains stopped for exactly 15 seconds at each station along the line, which usually eliminated the need for signals (they were later added when the technology was perfected). However, flagmen along the tracks were employed in case of heavy fog. They would tell the engineer how long (in minutes) the previous train had passed.
The Illinois Central RR also did its part -- building a huge on-site station with maybe a dozen platforms in a horsetail arrangement that was adjacent to the Expo Train Station built for the elevated train (electric) that shuttled folks around the expo grounds -- it was in a rough "C" configuration with a turnaround loop at each end. At the beginning they charged a dime ($2.16 today) per rider -- in those days a princely sum -- which kept passenger numbers low until a few weeks into the event. Then suddenly, ridership jumped to huge numbers.
Between the Alley L and the IC, over 1,000 trains a day arrived at the site. Passengers en route to the expo were loaded into cars so tightly they couldn't even turn around. I remember reading that on a designated "Chicago Day" at the expo the Illinois Central shuttles ran like precision clockwork and delivered something like 250,000 people to the grounds in a single day! The total attendance that day exceeded 700,000!
The interesting part is that the Columbian Exposition was originally slated for 1892, to coincide with the 400th anniversary of Columbus discovering America (now a hot topic for debate). But building the infrastructure took so much time (nearly three years), the entire event was pushed back a full year. The on-site elevated electric (third rail) system (including stations) was erected in less than a couple months. Trains traveled between stations at 12 miles per hour, and a complete 3-mile trip took 20 minutes.
Others came to the expo on Chicago's extensive streetcar system.
It was probably divine intervention that so many people rode the convenient public transportation and that mass-produced automobiles were to come years later. The biggest money maker at the expo was the sale of ice-cold beer in multitudinous stands and bierstubes everywhere one looked. And most of the beer halls were sponsored by brewerys that sold the cold suds in huge one-quart schooners at cost or less -- which translates into an army of grossly-oversold drunks staggering (and crawling) home every evening.
Many men went to the expo several days each week -- another big attraction were the foreign pavilions depicting Middle Eastern nightclubs . Not because men of the day were interested in other cultures, mind you. Many featured near-nekked belly dancers (hoochie-kootchie gals) to stare at while guzzling and smoking big, black imported cigars. The most famous was Little Egypt (photo below), who did a dance number where she progressively shed her clothes until she was wearing nothing more than earrings and a smile. Her nekked-ness was allowed to slip past the PC police -- she operated under the a thin veil of legality -- claiming her dance was "art". Her performance drew standing-only crowds the entire run of the fair.
OK, that's enough. I usually get paid to write this much.
This looks like a great reason for the railroads to Specially paint more Locomotives. Who know, if the 2001 and 2002 are still around, maybe they can team up with a 2016 and 2017. Maybe?
jclass wrote: I recall reading how the IC was instrumental in the 1893 World Exposition. Much of Chicago's magnificent lakefront is a result of that time.
I recall reading how the IC was instrumental in the 1893 World Exposition. Much of Chicago's magnificent lakefront is a result of that time.
A recent book, the "Devil in the White City" by Erik Larson is about the incredible problems and the incredible efforts to overcome them -- including by the railroads -- to get the Exposition put together.
One of my kids recently read the book, and mentioned it to me. I kind of looked at him because for years he had slept about 10 feet from an enormous collection of photo albums about the 1893 World Exposition, put together by the Milwaukee Road. Nineteen volumes to be exact. I asked why he was interested in the 1893 Exposition -- had he noticed the photo albums (which would have suggested a general awareness of his environment .... uncharacteristic for the time period)?
No, he had no idea they were there. No illusions shattered. Just happened to stumble on the book. So, I brought out the albums -- the "White City" was one of the most extraordinary construction efforts I am aware of. Just fabulous. A world apart.
""A thousand trains a day entered or left Chicago..."
Here's the Amazon review:
Author Erik Larson imbues the incredible events surrounding the 1893 Chicago World's Fair with such drama that readers may find themselves checking the book's categorization to be sure that The Devil in the White City is not, in fact, a highly imaginative novel. Larson tells the stories of two men: Daniel H. Burnham, the architect responsible for the fair's construction, and H.H. Holmes, a serial killer masquerading as a charming doctor. Burnham's challenge was immense. In a short period of time, he was forced to overcome the death of his partner and numerous other obstacles to construct the famous "White City" around which the fair was built. His efforts to complete the project, and the fair's incredible success, are skillfully related along with entertaining appearances by such notables as Buffalo Bill Cody, Susan B. Anthony, and Thomas Edison. The activities of the sinister Dr. Holmes, who is believed to be responsible for scores of murders around the time of the fair, are equally remarkable. He devised and erected the World's Fair Hotel, complete with crematorium and gas chamber, near the fairgrounds and used the event as well as his own charismatic personality to lure victims. Combining the stories of an architect and a killer in one book, mostly in alternating chapters, seems like an odd choice but it works. The magical appeal and horrifying dark side of 19th-century Chicago are both revealed through Larson's skillful writing.
greyhounds wrote:Expect my tax burden to increase dramatically if "The Games" come to Illinois.Let's see, they've got money for new stadiums for the Sox and Bears, a park in downtown Chicago that cost $400 million and was well over budget. But they don't have money for the teachers' pension fund.Gotta' love Illinois Government.
Expect my tax burden to increase dramatically if "The Games" come to Illinois.
Let's see, they've got money for new stadiums for the Sox and Bears, a park in downtown Chicago that cost $400 million and was well over budget. But they don't have money for the teachers' pension fund.
Gotta' love Illinois Government.
Attempting to get the Olympics, especially the summer Olympics, should be grounds for impeachment. You are depending on squeezing a lot of money out of the Feds.
Could the Olympics become an opportunity showcase for HSR and modern rail transit, and further the CREATE project?
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