MichaelSol wrote: Ironically, one of the largest surviving 1500 vDC systems outside of Holland is in ... France, which retains nearly 6,000 miles of 1500 vDC line, compared to Holland's 2061 miles. Spain, Switzerland, and a few other countries retain some 1500 volt systems. Serbia retains the title, however, with 6,082 miles.While urging everyone else to convert on the basis of economics ... France found little economic justification at home, even as Great Britain was furiously dismantling its 1500 v systems.
Ironically, one of the largest surviving 1500 vDC systems outside of Holland is in ... France, which retains nearly 6,000 miles of 1500 vDC line, compared to Holland's 2061 miles. Spain, Switzerland, and a few other countries retain some 1500 volt systems. Serbia retains the title, however, with 6,082 miles.
While urging everyone else to convert on the basis of economics ... France found little economic justification at home, even as Great Britain was furiously dismantling its 1500 v systems.
The UK didn't 'furiously dismantle' it's 1500V DC system - there was never very much to start with, just:
London (Liverpool Street) to Shenfield (about 35 miles of quadruple track mainline electrified in 1949) which was converted to 6.25kV 50Hz in 1962 and eventually to 25kV over the next 20 years or so - the justification for this was extension of the electrification by another 50 miles at 25kV 50Hz,
Manchester - Sheffield - Wath (about 60 miles of double track electrified in 1954) which remained 1500V DC until abandonment in 1981 of most of the route - the remainder was converted to 25kV 50Hz,
Manchester - Altrincham (about 9 miles of double track electrified in 1931) which was converted to 25kV 50Hz in 1971 when the equipment needed replacement.
There is actually still some 1500V DC overhead electrification in the UK - the Tyne & Wear Metro system uses it, and some of the track is shared with the national rail system.
There were much bigger plans for 1500V DC electrification in the 1940's/1950's e.g the East and West coast mainlines, but by the time the money became available it had already been decided that 25kV 50Hz was the way forward.
Tony
Erie Lackawanna wrote: I saw all of that, but the P5A and E2B. Great stuff. I remember being in Metropark on a freezing cold morning, no one else around, the air crystal clear... and the rails and catenary starting to sing -- announcing a freight with GG1s, E44s or if you were really lucky, the rare E33s. Man those were all powerful brutes.
I saw all of that, but the P5A and E2B. Great stuff. I remember being in Metropark on a freezing cold morning, no one else around, the air crystal clear... and the rails and catenary starting to sing -- announcing a freight with GG1s, E44s or if you were really lucky, the rare E33s. Man those were all powerful brutes.
Yes, the sounds of electrics. The singing of the wire, the roar of the blowers, the grind of the traction motors (expecially the old 25 cycle AC motors), and the popping of the pantograph when it momentarily loses contact. And if you were on one of the old PRR owl eyes or a Reading pre Silverliner MU the intermittent thumping of the compressor.
Those P5Am motors sure were ugly. I liked the looks of the straight P5A much better, but I know the crews liked the "m"s better in case there was a collision.
JonathanS wrote: bakupolo wrote: Without diesels, I would not be a railfan! Electric trains are ok to ride on, but they suck as spectator events. There is absolutely NOTHING soul-stirring about a pure electric train. Obviously you have never stood trackside when a GG1 roared past at 90+ with a 20 car Florida train in tow. Nor have you been trackside when a Trio of Bricks (E44s) pulled an ore train out of Greenwich Yard. And it appears you never saw a Screamer (E2B) and a P5Am MUed pulling a time freight up the low grade toward Lancaster at no more than a walking pace. The blowers on the Screamer living up to thier name, and the motors on the P5 straining so hard that they shake the ground. Nor have you seen an Amtrak E60 rounding the curve at the lower end of New Brunswick at 80+ and fishtailing so violently that you wonder whether to take the photo or to run. Even watching the parade of MU cars on the PRR or Reading during a snow storm was a treat, pantographs arcing where the ice and snow accumulated on the wire.
bakupolo wrote: Without diesels, I would not be a railfan! Electric trains are ok to ride on, but they suck as spectator events. There is absolutely NOTHING soul-stirring about a pure electric train.
Without diesels, I would not be a railfan! Electric trains are ok to ride on, but they suck as spectator events. There is absolutely NOTHING soul-stirring about a pure electric train.
Obviously you have never stood trackside when a GG1 roared past at 90+ with a 20 car Florida train in tow. Nor have you been trackside when a Trio of Bricks (E44s) pulled an ore train out of Greenwich Yard. And it appears you never saw a Screamer (E2B) and a P5Am MUed pulling a time freight up the low grade toward Lancaster at no more than a walking pace. The blowers on the Screamer living up to thier name, and the motors on the P5 straining so hard that they shake the ground. Nor have you seen an Amtrak E60 rounding the curve at the lower end of New Brunswick at 80+ and fishtailing so violently that you wonder whether to take the photo or to run. Even watching the parade of MU cars on the PRR or Reading during a snow storm was a treat, pantographs arcing where the ice and snow accumulated on the wire.
I rode in an E60 once on a NYP to Phila clocker. Only locomotive I ever rode where the cab seat armrests were a REQUIREMENT. But, they could pull those long clockers at 90 mph, no sweat.
Even those little Swedish meatballs can be pretty awe-inspiring, too. They'll give you a steady push in the back all the way up to 100 mph. You can actually feel the engineer throttle back at track speed.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
wallyworld wrote:My favorite ride under catenary was on the CNS&M. After trundling through Green Bay Junction, the motorman would wind out to balancing speed at 80 mph. No air conditioning...windows open...sometimes end doors. When you passed a train bulleting in another direction, the combined speed of the two was felt through an open window....as a jet blast of air..horn blaring for gate crossings, the doppler effect of crossing bells...catenary supports a blur...a feast for the senses...
Sounds great -- we had very similar feeling east coast rides... speedy open window electric cars I got to ride include the Reading Bluebirds, Pennsy MP-54s, Erie Lackawanna whickerliners (actually commuted regurlarly on those), and of course, my favorite, the Bullets and Stafford cars on the Norristown High Speed Line.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Randy Stahl wrote:100 miles an hour ... What .. you want to watch it go through a slow order !?!?!?!
AND THE AWARD FOR BEST LINE OF THE DAY GOES TO RANDY STAHL!
I record engine numbers (easy to do with a digital, i just shoot off some pics that will get tossed, but back then, with a pen and a pad of paper). With the GG1s, if a train had more than two units, forget it. There was no way to get the numbers. They flew.
adrianspeeder wrote: bakupolo wrote:. I sometime's think I was born in the wrong generation as I'd love to see a GG1 roarin' by at 100, or gettin a 40+ mail train rollin' on a hill.
bakupolo wrote:.
I sometime's think I was born in the wrong generation as I'd love to see a GG1 roarin' by at 100, or gettin a 40+ mail train rollin' on a hill.
bakupolo wrote:There is absolutely NOTHING soul-stirring about a pure electric train.
With the current revamp of the Harrisburg - Philly line, the GE oilburners have been replaced with electrics and I'm impressed. Even saw an E60 when I was younger and went wow.
Even though i'm a die hard black smokin' oilburnin' diesel fan, straight up elecric power amazes me and why I'm an Electrical Engineerin' major.
Adrianspeeder
USAF TSgt C-17 Aircraft Maintenance Flying Crew Chief & Flightline Avionics Craftsman
MichaelSol wrote: owlsroost wrote: I think the French decision to develop 50Hz electrification was only partly political (France suffers badly from the 'not-invented-here' syndrome, probably more so than the US).By the 1950's France had a considerable amount of 1.5kV DC electrification (the 1955 rail speed record runs used 1.5kV DC locomotives), but the limitations of the system were becoming apparent in high-power applications (thick and/or double contact wires to handle the high currents, closely spaced feeder stations etc) making it expensive to install.Ironically, one of the largest surviving 1500 vDC systems outside of Holland is in ... France, which retains nearly 6,000 miles of 1500 vDC line, compared to Holland's 2061 miles. Spain, Switzerland, and a few other countries retain some 1500 volt systems. Serbia retains the title, however, with 6,082 miles.While urging everyone else to convert on the basis of economics ... France found little economic justification at home, even as Great Britain was furiously dismantling its 1500 v systems.
owlsroost wrote: I think the French decision to develop 50Hz electrification was only partly political (France suffers badly from the 'not-invented-here' syndrome, probably more so than the US).By the 1950's France had a considerable amount of 1.5kV DC electrification (the 1955 rail speed record runs used 1.5kV DC locomotives), but the limitations of the system were becoming apparent in high-power applications (thick and/or double contact wires to handle the high currents, closely spaced feeder stations etc) making it expensive to install.
I think the French decision to develop 50Hz electrification was only partly political (France suffers badly from the 'not-invented-here' syndrome, probably more so than the US).
By the 1950's France had a considerable amount of 1.5kV DC electrification (the 1955 rail speed record runs used 1.5kV DC locomotives), but the limitations of the system were becoming apparent in high-power applications (thick and/or double contact wires to handle the high currents, closely spaced feeder stations etc) making it expensive to install.
There is no 1500V DC in the former Yugoslavia. Slovenia has 3000 V DC, plus a little piece of 15kV AC near the Austrian border, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Hercegovinia, and Macedonia are 25kV AC. The Swiss and Spanish 1500V DC are narrow-gauge lines. France is set to lose a small piece of 1500 V DC near Geneva, Switzerland as the Swiss government is contributing money to upgrade the connection. With the exception of some lines in the area of Switzerland and possibly the line to Italy via the Frejus Tunnel, I think the 1500 V DC is safe for years to come. SNCF has very little interest in investing in anything other than the LGVs (Ligne Grande Vitesse - High-Speed Lines).
JonathanS wrote: Even watching the parade of MU cars on the PRR or Reading during a snow storm was a treat, pantographs arcing where the ice and snow accumulated on the wire.
Arcing of 3,400 vDC on the Milwaukee. Ice on the contact wire on St. Paul Pass. Both pantographs of Little Joe E-70 are up. It was quite a show.
Take a look at most Canadian trackage areas- Try electrifying that.
The costs are astronomical, and we're having enough electricity problems anyway. There's the lack of versatility too.
Fuel cells and hybrids are the future, in my opinion.
-Tim
CrazyDiamond wrote:Eventually many lines in North America will have no choice but to go to electrics. As the world runs out of 'easy to get' fuel, fuel costs will continue to rise. As the world develops lower cost solar, wind, hydro, tidal generation, the RRs will financially forced to convert from diesel to electric grid. The risk is, since we are so short-term focused, and do not believe in long term investment we risk waiting too long, then it will be too late in the sense that the costs to convert will be even more expensive, and our overseas competitors will already be enjoying an electric system that has already paid for itself many times over. When my son starts school it won't be French langauge he will be learning as a second language, I will be getting him taught Chinese....because 20 years from now China will rule the world and or economy will be broken. They will be driving the energy efficient hybrids and we will be riding the bicycles. Our cheap energy ride is over and the 'harsh reality' is just starting to begin. This is why USA and Canada are resisiting Kyoto Protocol. We believe it will cost us too much money money to convert from a fossil fuel driven economy to one that uses less fossil fuel. Other nations aroudn the world have already completed their obligations becase they were already less dependant on fossil fuels then we are.
Eventually many lines in North America will have no choice but to go to electrics. As the world runs out of 'easy to get' fuel, fuel costs will continue to rise. As the world develops lower cost solar, wind, hydro, tidal generation, the RRs will financially forced to convert from diesel to electric grid. The risk is, since we are so short-term focused, and do not believe in long term investment we risk waiting too long, then it will be too late in the sense that the costs to convert will be even more expensive, and our overseas competitors will already be enjoying an electric system that has already paid for itself many times over. When my son starts school it won't be French langauge he will be learning as a second language, I will be getting him taught Chinese....because 20 years from now China will rule the world and or economy will be broken. They will be driving the energy efficient hybrids and we will be riding the bicycles. Our cheap energy ride is over and the 'harsh reality' is just starting to begin. This is why USA and Canada are resisiting Kyoto Protocol. We believe it will cost us too much money money to convert from a fossil fuel driven economy to one that uses less fossil fuel. Other nations aroudn the world have already completed their obligations becase they were already less dependant on fossil fuels then we are.
Hi guys.
Maybe you're right and railroads will have to go to electrics - in the long term. But my bet for the short term is this: spot electrification and dual (maybe converted) locomotives.
Spot electrification would be done in places where most trains go full throttle or full dynamic brakes (such as steep grades or yard/station approaches). Line voltage would be handled directly by locomotive inverters (3.0 - 4.0 kV DC maybe) thus no heavy on board equipment required.
Conversion would only be possible for AC locomotives beacuse standard DC locomotives may not work as direct electrics. At least, a pantograph, a DC filter, a circuit breaker, extra wiring and complete re-programing of locomotive computers would be needed.
But it would be cheaper and easier than full electrification.
Is it feasible? I don't know.
Cheers.
MichaelSol wrote: To an extent, these were political decisions. German and Czech engineering went into the 15 kV AC system, which Germany proposed to make a European "standard" at the particular point in time that it was "imposing" European standards. After that particular war, France made it a national priority to impose a different standard that supported French industry. SNEC had been directed to develop an electrification standard that would break France away from the "dependence" path -- i.e. existing standards. For no other particular reason, SNEC developed the 25 kV AC system: it wasn't German and it wasn't General Electric. The French government pushed this as a European standard, naturally, and as opposed to the direct current systems as well as competing AC systems, it enjoyed loan subsidies from the French government. Small nations electrifying for the first time, rebuilding electrifications from war damage, or in the case of Great Britain under the Labour party, adopting a "European" standard had substantial political tailwind, plus the availability of cheap loans. In its time, it was viewed as a "Socialist" electrification because it was new, represented the new idea of uniform integration, and promoted by France as such.Practically speaking, it did cost about 10% less than a comparable 3 kVDC system to construct, but offered no demonstrable operating savings. Given the extent of existing DC electrification, adoption of 25 kVAC ironically slowed rail transport integration in Europe.As a model of astute engineering, the DC 3,000 volt systems are in many cases approaching 90 years old. The technology is just about a century old. It survived several generations of steam, several generations of diesel-electrics, several varieties of AC electrification, and most of the original mileage, with the original motor-generator sets, is still going so strong that economic justification cannot be found for either termination or conversion.
To an extent, these were political decisions. German and Czech engineering went into the 15 kV AC system, which Germany proposed to make a European "standard" at the particular point in time that it was "imposing" European standards.
After that particular war, France made it a national priority to impose a different standard that supported French industry. SNEC had been directed to develop an electrification standard that would break France away from the "dependence" path -- i.e. existing standards. For no other particular reason, SNEC developed the 25 kV AC system: it wasn't German and it wasn't General Electric. The French government pushed this as a European standard, naturally, and as opposed to the direct current systems as well as competing AC systems, it enjoyed loan subsidies from the French government.
Small nations electrifying for the first time, rebuilding electrifications from war damage, or in the case of Great Britain under the Labour party, adopting a "European" standard had substantial political tailwind, plus the availability of cheap loans. In its time, it was viewed as a "Socialist" electrification because it was new, represented the new idea of uniform integration, and promoted by France as such.
Practically speaking, it did cost about 10% less than a comparable 3 kVDC system to construct, but offered no demonstrable operating savings. Given the extent of existing DC electrification, adoption of 25 kVAC ironically slowed rail transport integration in Europe.
As a model of astute engineering, the DC 3,000 volt systems are in many cases approaching 90 years old. The technology is just about a century old. It survived several generations of steam, several generations of diesel-electrics, several varieties of AC electrification, and most of the original mileage, with the original motor-generator sets, is still going so strong that economic justification cannot be found for either termination or conversion.
High voltage industrial frequency (50/60Hz) AC minimises the cost of the feeder stations (just transformers and switchgear), but complicates the train equipment so it's well suited to longer distance lines with lower traffic densities. Given that by the late 1950's it was just about possible to make rectifiers usable in a high-power locomotive, the door was open to practical industrial frequency electrification - and of course France hoped to sell the idea/equipment to other countries. Low frequency, high voltage AC (e.g. 15kV 16.66Hz in Germany/Austria/Switzerland) has some of the same advantages but needs dedicated power stations or frequency converters in the feeder stations, and the on-train transformers are larger and heavier.
So technically (as well as politically) I suspect that going for 25kV 50Hz for future French electrification was the right decision at the time - even if it was prompted as much by 'NIH' considerations as much as technical need!
The 1.5kV DC electrification schemes in the UK were developed in the 1930's, but WW2 put the plans on hold until the early 1950's when they were dusted off and implemented (partly as job-creation schemes), so you could argue they were already obsolete when completed. Given that situation, moving to 25kV 50Hz for the first long-distance main line electrification in the early 1960's (London - Birmingham/Liverpool/Manchester) was probably the obvious thing to do, given that the French had already proven it could work. The existing 1.5kV DC lines were eventually either converted to 25kV 50Hz or abandoned.
BNIRRLives wrote: GLOBAL WARMING IS NOT TRUE. THE WORLD GOES IN CYCLES. Electrifying would cost millions upon millions. Besides look at the winter storms in the past four months. What if it takes out the pantogragh wire in areas of a storm. Can we really afford to lose rail service in some parts of the country for periods over three weeks due to a storm. BNIRRLives
GLOBAL WARMING IS NOT TRUE. THE WORLD GOES IN CYCLES. Electrifying would cost millions upon millions. Besides look at the winter storms in the past four months. What if it takes out the pantogragh wire in areas of a storm. Can we really afford to lose rail service in some parts of the country for periods over three weeks due to a storm.
BNIRRLives
Man, I hate when these threads get into partisan politics. I can go read this stuff at Fox News. Can we stick to trains here, no matter what your politics are, please?
That means the next ice age is just around the corner in about 3,000 years. What does global warming rants have to do with electrification? The energy to move trains has to come from somewhere. Some sources release more carbon emissions than others. Choose your poison.
Global warming is evident. Sorry to burst your bubble on that one. Whether or not this is human caused or accelerated or purely a natural cyclical phenomon may be debateable but the rise in temperatures over the last 50 years is irrefutable. Get used to it. You will be affected in ways you cannot even begin to contemplate. The millions and millions needed to electrify is insignificant to the billions and billions which will be needed to try to deal with the unimaginable costs global warming is going to impose upon our societies.
hopper wrote:I guess railroad electrification reached it's peak in the 1940's.or maybe sooner than that.Why did railroads get away from that??? During these times of global warming & green house gases,shouldnt the railroads also be looking for better ways of moving there payloads????Europe & the far east have trais runing on magnets & elctric power,it's time we get away from belching diesel locomotives and get some research started to geting some cleaner stuff on the rails.what's EMD or GE doing,anyone know???? Easter
If we are going to start pin pointing trains, then we need to look at the space shuttle and jets. GE developed the Evolution Environmentally friendly locomotive. Global Warming is not true the world goes through natural cycles.
bakupolo wrote:Without diesels, I would not be a railfan! Electric trains are ok to ride on, but they suck as spectator events. There is absolutely NOTHING soul-stirring about a pure electric train
Diesel-electric is the compromise technology. If you need diesels to be a railfan, then perhaps you should question whether you are one, because you don't want to risk being a poseur…
bakupolo wrote:Without diesels, I would not be a railfan! Electric trains are ok to ride on, but they suck as spectator events. There is absolutely NOTHING soul-stirring about a pure electric train.
I'm sure that there were some railfans who felt the same way when steam faded from general service too.
I beg to differ. Perhaps you missed the Milwaukee but I dare you to go spend a week along the Black Mesa & Lake Powell and tell me that is not a spectator event. From the moment that first pantograph of the day rises and slaps the trolley wire, bounces down and then restores contact it is all soul stirring. The machine comes alive, the auxiliaries hum to balance, the compressor rotates and pumps life into the reservoirs. The last act of the day is the dropping of the pans, the ppfffft of the air being released and the clatter of the metal nesting down onto the roof of the locomotive. The hum of the unit stops and the air in all the nooks and crannies pops, fizzes and escapes to the atmosphere it was borrowed from. Live a little here.
440cuin wrote: Germany and Sweden both use 15kv 16 2/3Hz, but Denmark wich lies in between thse two countrys with no other rail route around, recently electrified with 25kv. What gives with that? Now they only have one type of loco that can travel through, the class EG.
Germany and Sweden both use 15kv 16 2/3Hz, but Denmark wich lies in between thse two countrys with no other rail route around, recently electrified with 25kv. What gives with that? Now they only have one type of loco that can travel through, the class EG.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.