Homeland Security or Orwell's "Big Brother"

[JoeKoh]

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57

Oh no, now Mookie has steamed dan![;)] Where is the choclate cake? That will make everything all better!

Rudy- I haven't been hassled, thankfully, and since I obey the rules I don't really expect to be hassled in the future. I guess my argument lies mostly in the principle of the idea. I would rather see our country live to its fullest rather than what we are doing now, which is "living not to die". Kinda like playing to win vs. playing not to lose if that makes any sense.

Finally, for JoeKoh- Glad to hear you vote, too. Lets vote for Ed and Mookie as a write-ins! [:D] I agree about the kids saying the curse words. If I'd had said something like that as a kid I'd tasted Irish Spring for hours. And, thanks, its always nice to get back home to Indy. I know I'll have a good time!

Talk to you all later and Mookie, save a piece of cake for me!

Mike

Mike - nice try - but Mookie was an only child and she doesn't have to share!

[;)]

[techguy57]

Oh no, now Mookie has steamed dan![;)] Where is the choclate cake? That will make everything all better!

Rudy- I haven't been hassled, thankfully, and since I obey the rules I don't really expect to be hassled in the future. I guess my argument lies mostly in the principle of the idea. I would rather see our country live to its fullest rather than what we are doing now, which is "living not to die". Kinda like playing to win vs. playing not to lose if that makes any sense.

Finally, for JoeKoh- Glad to hear you vote, too. Lets vote for Ed and Mookie as a write-ins! [:D] I agree about the kids saying the curse words. If I'd had said something like that as a kid I'd tasted Irish Spring for hours. And, thanks, its always nice to get back home to Indy. I know I'll have a good time!

Talk to you all later and Mookie, save a piece of cake for me!

Mike

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie
[br
And how much of this tightened airport security has prevented a tragedy? Seems to me they have collected a lot of fingernail files. Barry Switzer was caught before 911 when screening worked just fine, thank you.

Mookie

You get absolutely no points with me by mentioning me and Barry in the same response[:(!][;)]

Mookie's humble apologies to Dan for that ! It was hard even to type the name! [V]

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Let me add a few more thoughts to what I posted last night. For the most part there are no laws that I know of to forbid anyone from photographing trains from public property. The only exceptions that I know of are if identifiable military facilities, strategic defense plants, or nuclear power plants are in the background. Normally the police won't hassle you for photographing trains from public property unless you are in a place whee your presence creates a hazard to yourself or others such as on a heavily trafficked road bridge over railroad tracks that doesn't have pedestrian walkways.

For example If the railroads or the FRA wants to inhibit railroad photography then they should lean on he city fathers of Rochelle, IL, Cresson, PA, Manchester, GA to close their railroad parks

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie
[br
And how much of this tightened airport security has prevented a tragedy? Seems to me they have collected a lot of fingernail files. Barry Switzer was caught before 911 when screening worked just fine, thank you.

Mookie

You get absolutely no points with me by mentioning me and Barry in the same response[:(!][;)]

[JoeKoh]

First of all Mookies common sense platform is what we need.
Second I do vote
Third whats with four and five year olds saying four letter words?hmmmm
fourth Mike have fun in indy!
stay safe
Joe

[techguy57]

Wow, there really has been a lot of excellent conversation here in the last couple of days. See, I guess this is what goes on when I have a "Honey-do" list longer than my arm.

First of all, for Da Mook-I guess Steam Glory wasn't all that got you steamed![:)]

Truthfully I couldn't agree with you all more. I got paddled as a kid and I like to think I turned out okay. Unfortunately like everything else there are those people who will abuse it and there lies the problem. It forces the authorities of one persuasion or another, to get involved. But like Ed was saying, who is keeping the authorities from abusing their power? I mean, it';s more than airport screenings and having to take my shoes off to get on a plane. It';s the fact that now they are listening more than ever to our phone conversations, reading our emails to each other, and spying on what we say in forums like these that I find of concern. Actually, I';d be surprised if this thread hasn't already been red-flagged by DHS. So be sure to say hi to the nice person monitoring this![:D]

Really, for the most part I will say that I have the utmost respect for those in authority, be it law enforcement, emergency services, military, or what have you (there are of course always one or two who are a little big for their britches wherever you are) , because they are doing a tough job, usually for not that much money, and that means that I can do something that appeals more to my personality. They all work to keep us free, and for that I AM very grateful. Along with Ed I will stand up and get loud until I can't any more so that their service is not in vain.

I DO VOTE. I try to make sure that I know where each candidate stands, and make the best decision based on which one I think best represents my own views. I will vote again next year as well. One problem is that the current electoral system can be manipulated so that it isn't truly representative of the populations views, not to mention that its awfully damn confusing. Just look at the 2000 election if you want to know what I mean. The other problem with the system is that it seems there are fewer and fewer politicians who remember what this country is all about. It is becoming more and more a media driven circus than anything, look at California if you don't believe that. Honestly I think that's why there aren't more people my age (20-25) out there voting. I think a lot of us grew up with Bush Sr. lying to us about no new taxes, Clinton lying to us about not inhaling or having sexual relations, and Dubya, well, just being himself. But come this time next year, I'll go to the poles all the same and pick the one who in my eye is the lesser of the two evils. You can say what you want about Arnold and Jessie Ventura but at least AT ONE POINT they gave people something to be excited about. Can you honestly say the same thing about Bush or Gore? Ventura's biggest problem was being a independent and not being able to get enough support, and Arnold hasn't had time to prove he can do anything except show up on Leno. The greatest country in the world needs a leader who isn't about saving face, who is generally concerned with the people, and wants MORE than just a nice haircut and a hummer from his interns. The problem is, Ed is busy![:)]

I'll climb down off the soapbox now. I got to get prepared for railfanning in Indy![:D]

From the greatest country in the world, this is techguy signing off.


Ed in 2004

[tree68]

I got a forwarded email from a friend the other day - topic: "Soft Targets". The general gist was - there are targets out there and people willing to hit them. As most of the posts have already said, and as I replied to the email - If they want us, they got us. An all-American boy blew up Murrah - not some kook from Whatsistan. I can travel from coast to coast, and if I don't get a speeding ticket or use a credit card, nobody will know! Some security.

There are those who insist that we knew about Pearl Harbor well before it happened. The same has been said about WTC/Petagon. In both cases it's been said that the attacks were allowed to happen so as to galvanize an otherwise complacent (from the eyes of the leadership) American people. We may never know for sure, but it's costing us a lot in terms of our daily peace of mind not knowing who the enemy really is.

[vsmith]

What really has me steamed hot under the collar is that me and Mr and Mrs America is being told to cough up 87 BILLION dollars to rebuild a country that will become a haven for radical nutjobs, all while my country continues to fall apart, and on top of this , the REAL enemy of America, Osama-bin-F***ing-Laden is STILL FREE !!!

Al-queda just this morning blew up part of Istanbul.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Ummm..let's see where to start.

I was going to write a short tirade about ....
1) those of us that serve have an understanding of the risks and possible outcomes..
2) you think being stripped searched at the airport is ugly, then maybe you ought to see what someone blown up looks like
and....
3) My personal feelings about the legality or wisdom of the TSA and DHS are not open for discussion given my current employer. If you feel strongly about it VOTE. I DO.

But instead, I will say this, as a railfan, you know what railfans look like and what they do. If you come across something that don't look or smell right, call it in. You might just save someone. The worst you are going to do is cause an inconvenience. I have been shot at enough in my life....I prefer inconvenience.

Dan - I don't have a problem with security per se. What I have a problem with is they are subjecting the tax-paying public to rigorous searches and security laws, but ignoring the other things around them. Why would an airport search only every 3rd person and not everyone! (I know why, but it is ludicrous to only do a half way job of screening!) But that same airport will leave a gate unsecured for people who have not been screened to go in and out!

I listen to a police scanner several hours at nite. You know what our local police are being called out to do? Not catch bad guys. They are going to a ladies house that called in because her 5 year old is out of control! At first I thought what a maroon, but then I remember that you can't correct your children because you will be arrested for child abuse! So you call the police to come and do your parenting duties, because laws have made it so you can't.

I grew up during a time of civility. Dad used a yardstick and I didn't suffer child abuse. I want to protect children as much as anyone - children and animals should not suffer at the hands of any human. But do I think we should ban hunting or correcting a child - no - do it properly and humanely!

But this not being able to swat a child on the place God provided in the grocery store for fear the whole store will call the police on you, has got to stop! The act of traveling from one place to another with out close scrutiny when terrorists can travel freely and w/o fear of deportation, even tho their green card has expired...this has got to stop!

We are strangling the God-fearing, tax-paying citizens in red tape and the terrorists and weirdos out there are getting all the benefits we used to enjoy!

And how much of this tightened airport security has prevented a tragedy? Seems to me they have collected a lot of fingernail files. Barry Switzer was caught before 911 when screening worked just fine, thank you.

Mookie

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Puckdropper

There's security, like having a locked door on an airplane. The pilots should need nothing from the crew, and the passengers need nothing from the pilots.

Then there's paranoia... that's like arresting a person for taking a picture of their friend on their first plane ride.

Too much paranoia, and in 2004 I will do my part and vote. Hey Mookie... Can we get your common sense to run for president?

I don't have time - it will cut into my forum time! [}:)]

Mook!

[dharmon]

Ummm..let's see where to start.

I was going to write a short tirade about ....
1) those of us that serve have an understanding of the risks and possible outcomes..
2) you think being stripped searched at the airport is ugly, then maybe you ought to see what someone blown up looks like
and....
3) My personal feelings about the legality or wisdom of the TSA and DHS are not open for discussion given my current employer. If you feel strongly about it VOTE. I DO.

But instead, I will say this, as a railfan, you know what railfans look like and what they do. If you come across something that don't look or smell right, call it in. You might just save someone. The worst you are going to do is cause an inconvenience. I have been shot at enough in my life....I prefer inconvenience.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Let me reply from a railfan's perspective. I have yet to be hassled for photographing trains since September 11, 2003, but having said that, this concern is nothing new. A similar paranoia briefly occurred during the first few months of the Korean conflict, but it quickly went away; this too will pass.

The point is, if terrorists or others want information about almost any structure in this country, it is readily available from many different sources so forbidding photographs of the bridges in New York City, for example, makes little, if any sense.

[Puckdropper]

There's security, like having a locked door on an airplane. The pilots should need nothing from the crew, and the passengers need nothing from the pilots.

Then there's paranoia... that's like arresting a person for taking a picture of their friend on their first plane ride.

Too much paranoia, and in 2004 I will do my part and vote. Hey Mookie... Can we get your common sense to run for president?

[Anonymous]

The bottom line about Fatherland - I mean Homeland - security is that it was never needed at all except for the bit about getting the various intel and law enforcement agencies to communicate better. Every time some major crime happens, the government tries to get legislation passed to subvert our rights in the name of security. One reason is that law enforcement and intel types will always put security above freedom. It has to do with the kind of borderline paranoids that go into these kinds of jobs. Also, when something like 9/11 happens people want something done right now. Another problem is that good police work takes time, effort and careful thinking. Unfortunately, most cops are the kind of people that want to act first and think later.

I'm rambling a bit I think (I'm on pain killers 'cause I messed up my back weightlifting). The bottom line the USA Patriot Act and the Department of Fatherland - I mean Homeland - Security weren't needed. Instead we need to accept the fact that there is no way to completely stop terrorists who are willing to do suicide missions. However, good police and intel work done by agencies that communicate effectively with each other can maximize the likelyhood of catching the bad guys before they hurt anyone. I think that we also need to do what 12-steppers call a "searching and fearless moral inventory" of our foreign policy and give our enemies less ammunition to use against us.

Keep Safe!

[edblysard]

England can close their borders, and enforce strict security measures that work, because they are a island.
America happens to be part of a huge land mass, and there is no way, short of creating another Army just for this purpose, that we could close our borders.
I live in a state where illegal immigrants can, and do, just walk across the border.

For those of you old enough to remember the rounding up and internment of American citizens of japanse descent in WWII, the idea or confining or even finding 5th columinst should ring every alarm you have.

It didnt work then, and couldnt work now.

As for keeping a eye on my fellow Americans, not this guy.

Yes, I do check out railfans around the property, but I know most of them by sight, and the new ones that show up are obviously real fans, they get way to excited to be anything but fans.

And its ironic, that my Dad served in the Navy so long, helping to keep America
a open society, instead of a closed one, where reporting your neighbor was rewarded.

And, if you think about it, there really is no way to prevent them from repeating Sept 11th again, we already know the "security" measures at airports dont work.

If they are here, and are going to do something like that again, they will.

If preventing this from happening again means all of us have to give up the real American way of life, where you dont have to hide from your own goverment,
where American citizens dont spy on American citizens, everything my fathers generation fought so hard to preserve, all of their sacrifices and all of their deaths, everything Scottydog did when he was a bubblehead, the death of his son in Beriut, and everything Dan is doing now, it was all in vain?

Uh uh, not on my watch!

If we allow big brother to become a real and officaly reconized part of our goverment, then shame on us for keeping quite.

Often, the best intentions go wrong.

All evil needs to triumph is for good men to keep quite.

Get loud!

Ed

[vsmith]

In the middle of WWII, at the hieght of the war, somebody derailed and wrecked the City of San Francisco in the middle of the desert. They sabatoged the tracks by misaligning a rail but they connected the two rails with a cable so the signaling system wouldnt trigger a break in the circuit and issue a "stop train" red light. This all happened at the hieght of the war, when everyone and their brother were looking for "5th columnists". The authorities never solved the case, no one ever claimed responsibility, and it remains unsolved to this day. It was in all likelyhood an ex-railroad worker who knew how everything worked and knew how to beat the safety systems. Why? who knows, disgruntled with an axe to grind?

My point: He planned, prepared, and carried out a heinous act of violence at the height of national security. If a terrorist is going to plan an attack, we will probably never notice them. Most of the suspect people were rounded up after 9-11.

The only thing the Patriot Act and Homeland Security are designed to do now is to KEEP YOU SCARED so you wont question how they run the country or the economy!

Sorry, folks, but thats their purpose. Read the act, it reads like something straight out of Germany 1935. Spy on anyone you dont know, every with a camera is suspect, every action is subject to question. SCARY. In Patriot II all you need to have your citizenship stripped, and your butt shipped of to Rhurra Pente is to have the President or the Attorney General label you a terrorist and boom, your outta here . So that could mean that ANYONE (political foes, publishers, activists, joe-schmoe) who publically calls the president a dirty so and so, could be labeled a terrorist making threats and whosh, he's never seen again. He becomes one of the vanished.

Just like in those third world dictatorships. I am NOT paranoid or making this up. READ IT.

When hard-core Republican in the House and Senate say publically that this legislation scares them, its time to really start paying attention to what they are trying to push down our throats.

[Mookie]

This subject is a burr in Mook's fur. I don't like to go into detailed political discussions, but just briefly - this Homeland outfit is nonsense. I don't think we need a presidential appointment for this! They are taking John Q Public apart at the local airport, while other gates aren't even looked at. People come and go freely while citizens are being subjected to practically undressing at the gate!

I don't have a clue how you are going to keep someone from mailing anthrax or any other powdered item thru the mails. Or for that matter - anything in a package. Do they x-ray each package? I think not - I mailed one the other day and all the lady at the counter did was ask me some questions. Boy, that was some security! What did that prove - that I was lying? Or that I wasn't?

So far all Homeland security has done is upset the population. It is just like the new $20 bill - they spent an obnoxious amount on change and advertising only to find out it can be counterfeited just like the old ones. So why the change?

If a terrorist or a nitwit is going to sabatoge a railroad, a plane, a building, whatever - the good ones are going to get the job done with or w/o Homeland security. The usual stupid criminals will be handled by our local police force or security already in place!

And that's all I'm gonna say on that!

Mookie

[ironhorseman]

Well, there go any hopes of getting the details on a prototypical model railroad precise. And there go any chances of getting any award winning pictures.

Actually, I get the feeling that this security paranoia is heightened more on the coasts and particularly in the north east than anywhere else. Anywhere there is a port or a waterfront there's heightened awarness. I guess living here in Kansas we're all relaxed, except in Wichita. Let me relate a couple of funny stories. Long before the events of September 11 someone left behind, on accident, a first aid kit at the gates of the zoo. It was black and had no markings. Someone got all excited and the zoo was shut down as well as the streets around it and the bomb squad came in and blew up the first aid kit. Then there was the incident of local running club that was using either powdered sugar to mark their routes (because it's biodegradable). Well, needless to say, someone thought it was anthrax and the whole downtown was shut down and every city government office was searched. They found out later in the lab it was just a food substance. This has happened more than once. All this years before September 11. Then the events of September 11 took place and we had nuts out there thinking 100% for sure Wichita was next. Between Boeing and the universities it was hard to tell which one was the next target. Well, nothing's happened in Wichita but they still put public service annoncements on TV warning of the threat.

But here's the clincher: of all the safety precautions they want people to take they don't give a rat's rear what happens to the railroad. They just want the railroad to disappear. People over there in Wichita hate the railroad "because it makes them late to work." They won't tell you there are pleanty of over- and under-passes to use. And the local model railroad club told me they were kicked out of town "because [the former mayor] hates trains and wouldn't let them stay in a city building regardless of their ability to pay rent." or something like that.

I'm glad I don't live over there anymore, besides, there are more trains where I live now that come by in an hour than that go through Wichita all day in. Besides, the water tatses funny over there.

[techguy57]

Dave -Thanks for the info, I figured the railroads already were taking precautions.

Dan- I agree, the cops around here are usually fair and understanding.

Okay, I think you guys are right on. I don't take security lightly, either, be it in my home or at work. And, if I'm railfanning and I get asked to leave, even if I'm in a public place I imagine that I'd probably just go quietly. I'm not one to pick fights.

What it really boils down to is this: I think it just sucks that I have to even worry about my taking pictures of trains being thought of as "unusual" or "suspicious." I understand why, but that doesn't make it suck any less. For me it would be like going someplace for vacation and not being able to take pictures of the landmarks. I take pictures of things because I'm interested in them and want to remember my experiences. Trains fall into this category.
I guess like everyone else I just want to have enjoyable experiences. You can't tell me it wouldn't bother you to have your favorite hobby or pasttime taken away from you. I just hope that day never happens for anyone, railfans included.

and JoeKoh, don't worry, all I EVER leave is footprints[:)]

Thanks and keep the feedback coming!

Mike

[JoeKoh]

if you take pictures leave footprints I usually have no problems and if I see something that doesnt belong I call the cops and/or csx or ns whatever the case may be.
stay safe
Joe

[dharmon]

It is most difficult to balance the need to tighten security and to preserve the civil liberties. To many, you taking a picture of a train is suspicious. You may think that its funny that folks would sit at the end of a runway, on public property, and take pictures of airplanes..military or civil, but that is a common occurance also. If I didn't like trains, and a I saw you taking a picture of Ed switching chemical laden tank cars, with a map of the local railroads and a scanner in your car, I would probably call the cops and let them sort it out, because it is better to be safe than sorry. 99 percent of it is purely harmless. The one percent is what we should be afraid of. A fair number of events have beeb thwarted by someone calling attention to something out of the ordinary..

I don't think that if you have an ID, a believable story and no other reason to be hasseled...trespassing, firearms, outstanding tickets etc you will go to jail. Police have to respond to these calls everyday and can usually tell who's BSing about what they're doing.

[dehusman]

Actually similar instructions are out on the railroads.

While y'all might take security lightly, the railroads do not.

Dave H.

[Puckdropper]

I think it's putting too much power in to too few hands the way you described it. If you're definately under the bridge photographing its underside, then more power to law enforement. If you take a picture of a couple of GPs and a load of cars (that's what runs through here in Ft Wayne mainly) going across a bridge, then they should do nothing except ask to see the picture.

While good ideas, people make mistakes and accidently get too close to something or whatnot. You have to watch who is given the power...

[techguy57]

Okay, so thanks to my lovely girlfriend I got to attend a nice company party at a slightly swanky yacht club on Lake Michigan in Racine, WI. I don't often get to attend events like this so I like to have a good time and also look around and see what the people who belong to such clubs get to see all the time. While I was wandering i picked up a pamphlet from the US Coast Guard entitled:
"DO YOUR PART FOR HOMELAND SECURITY. Keep Our Waterways Safe and Secure."

Let me say, fascinating reading[:p] There were some serious and well made points, like keep 500yds away from Naval vessels (to quote: "violators face up to 6 years in prison and and a $250,000 fine, not to mention a quick and svere response") and 100 yds away from large commercial vessels. What concerned me somewhat are the following excerpts:

"Immediately report the following:
Suspicious persons conducting unusual activities such as near bridges or high security areas on or near the water...
...Unknown persons photographing or creating diagrams of such things as the underside of bridges, the area around nuclear power plants, and waterfront facilities near miltary, cruise-line, or commercial vessels...
...If you do observe dangerous behavior on or near the waterfront, contact local law enforcement immediately!"

Now, I understand what they are driving at, but I can't say that I don't find it a bit ridiculous. I mean is there a correct definition of "suspicious persons" or "unusual activities"? And if I'm taking pictures of a train along the waterfront, say I'm in Houston snapping a photo of Ed hard at work, should someone report me? Or if I'm taking a picture of a train crossing a bridge over the Mississippi, should someone call the cops? I mean really, maybe I'm exaggerating but this seems to be a little over the top for my tastes. I'm all for safety, but if I ever had to go to jail for simply taking pictures,not tresspassing, not endangering myself or others, well it seems a violation of civil rights to me.

Now the FRA does not have any similar publication listed on their website. I don't know if there is anything similar in print but if there is please correct me and let me know.

Mostly I just want to know what you all would think or how you'd feel if the Federal Railroad administration were to enact similar "precautions" , either as railfans or rail employees or both. Let me know.

Mike