Not Again!

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

KENNEO:

Rockwells GPS "LARS" system will work to keep trains positively separated end-to-end, but is useless in a siding. Until there are HARM stations all over the place so that the system has survey grade accuracy, the system can't tell the difference between fouling and safely passing in a siding 15 feet parallel to the other track. I addition trees, bridges and tunnels render the system useless. GE tracks locomotives to +/- 500 feet for maintenance purposes, but not for collision avoidance telemetry.

Factor into this that most people do not understand GPS and do not know the difference between GPS and GIS. Maybe we'd be better off making Missouri, Seattle and the clones wear a GPS collar and instead of Amber Alerts, post Quack Proxcimity Alerts (!) that would force them underground where they belong...

MC

Just read your post here. A little slow getting around to things, I guess.

YES, a QPA system would certainly be a plus!!!!!! (That is good - I like it. Where is Mookie when you need her!)

I haven't been active in 4'8.5" to the foot railroading since the SP dumbsized a bunch of us BRAC/TCU folks just after the UP flooded the market with the dumbsizing all of their agreement clerks and agents. That's 10 years, now. So, what I had in mind was a GPS version of Automatic Train Stop. Which is a different sort than the type they have been using at Carrolls (physical contact activation).

Where the collisions have occurred is a control point consisting of two crossovers between a double track main. Simply put, if the light is red, the train stops. Accuracy within 500 feet should be adequit for this. I realizethat I am oversimplyfying this, but my knowledge is not what I would like on this subject.

The irony of it is that after the 1995 Carrolls headon that killed all 5 crew members, this M type got the FRA, WaDOT, the BN and UP to fund and operate trials and development of a GPS "operated" ATS system over this very section of the Portland-Seattle main line. Never heard about it again.

In 1995, a NB UP was going to crossover and a SB BN was to wait for the UP and then operate straight rail. UP had not gotten to the signal, and the BN ran a double red, straightened the switch and then head-on into the UP. Peasoup Fog. Closing speed was pushing 100 MPH

In 2003, the BN (SB) was 2/3 through the X when the NB UP ran the signal and into their side. Rain.

Both times, cars and containers came through the trees between the tracks and I-5 and blocked I-5. In '95, both directions.

The railroad is double track, signaled both ways, from the Steel Bridge (Portland)(bridge is at south end of Union Station) to Interbay Yard (ex GN yard in Seattle north of King Street Station (Amtrak) about 2 or 3 miles. Except at King Street and King Street Coach Yard, all mainline switches are CTC even within yard limits - ABS, of course, between the control points.

Stay warm. Stay dry.

The GPS system currently inplace is designed to give civil users a lesser degree of accuracy than the military customers for obvious reasons. That 15 feet of seperation may not be achievable under existing rules, however for most civil applications (surveying not really being one of them, but hunting, fishing etc,) 15' is good enough.

[bnsfkline]

Lawyers sueing railroads...The railroads would play them like a Lion plays with a Zebra. Lawyers know **** about railroad operations or the the technology.....I was doing a report on Railroad Safety in my sphmore year....and I cam across this site that said

"...Railroads are a industry of the past....if you or a relative have been hurt by a train....let us know and we will get you a settlement. Whistles, Grade Crossing gates, Bells are more than 100 years old....and the technology is shitty..."

Lets just say me and the AOL board members e-mailed them with EXTREAMLY HARSH letters. They even got their friends to E-mail them.....With in a week...the site was Closed. It may have re-opened...but if it has....All of us should E-mail them.....Have the Railroads Sue them, have the FRA sue them, and of course....Us Railfans sue them. Trying to get money from being injured at a grade crossing.....I wonder how many people actually WON their cass....its their own god damn fault for TRESSPASSING in the first place. And these lawers are in CHICAGO.

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

KENNEO:

Rockwells GPS "LARS" system will work to keep trains positively separated end-to-end, but is useless in a siding. Until there are HARM stations all over the place so that the system has survey grade accuracy, the system can't tell the difference between fouling and safely passing in a siding 15 feet parallel to the other track. I addition trees, bridges and tunnels render the system useless. GE tracks locomotives to +/- 500 feet for maintenance purposes, but not for collision avoidance telemetry.

Factor into this that most people do not understand GPS and do not know the difference between GPS and GIS. Maybe we'd be better off making Missouri, Seattle and the clones wear a GPS collar and instead of Amber Alerts, post Quack Proxcimity Alerts (!) that would force them underground where they belong...

MC

Just read your post here. A little slow getting around to things, I guess.

YES, a QPA system would certainly be a plus!!!!!! (That is good - I like it. Where is Mookie when you need her!)

I haven't been active in 4'8.5" to the foot railroading since the SP dumbsized a bunch of us BRAC/TCU folks just after the UP flooded the market with the dumbsizing all of their agreement clerks and agents. That's 10 years, now. So, what I had in mind was a GPS version of Automatic Train Stop. Which is a different sort than the type they have been using at Carrolls (physical contact activation).

Where the collisions have occurred is a control point consisting of two crossovers between a double track main. Simply put, if the light is red, the train stops. Accuracy within 500 feet should be adequit for this. I realizethat I am oversimplyfying this, but my knowledge is not what I would like on this subject.

The irony of it is that after the 1995 Carrolls headon that killed all 5 crew members, this M type got the FRA, WaDOT, the BN and UP to fund and operate trials and development of a GPS "operated" ATS system over this very section of the Portland-Seattle main line. Never heard about it again.

In 1995, a NB UP was going to crossover and a SB BN was to wait for the UP and then operate straight rail. UP had not gotten to the signal, and the BN ran a double red, straightened the switch and then head-on into the UP. Peasoup Fog. Closing speed was pushing 100 MPH

In 2003, the BN (SB) was 2/3 through the X when the NB UP ran the signal and into their side. Rain.

Both times, cars and containers came through the trees between the tracks and I-5 and blocked I-5. In '95, both directions.

The railroad is double track, signaled both ways, from the Steel Bridge (Portland)(bridge is at south end of Union Station) to Interbay Yard (ex GN yard in Seattle north of King Street Station (Amtrak) about 2 or 3 miles. Except at King Street and King Street Coach Yard, all mainline switches are CTC even within yard limits - ABS, of course, between the control points.

Stay warm. Stay dry.

[mudchicken]

KENNEO:

Rockwells GPS "LARS" system will work to keep trains positively separated end-to-end, but is useless in a siding. Until there are HARM stations all over the place so that the system has survey grade accuracy, the system can't tell the difference between fouling and safely passing in a siding 15 feet parallel to the other track. I addition trees, bridges and tunnels render the system useless. GE tracks locomotives to +/- 500 feet for maintenance purposes, but not for collision avoidance telemetry.

Factor into this that most people do not understand GPS and do not know the difference between GPS and GIS. Maybe we'd be better off making Missouri, Seattle and the clones wear a GPS collar and instead of Amber Alerts, post Quack Proxcimity Alerts (!) that would force them underground where they belong...

MC

[vsmith]

Be real interesting to see how Uncle Pete's train crew drug tests come back.

[wabash1]

Hommie

Not to bust your bubble but the abs territory is also recorded. as to what the signals displayed.

[kenneo]

The UP crew went through a double red at 49 MPH.

There is a lawyer in Seattle that was involved in getting millions from the other wreck at Carrolls 8 years ago. He was on TV yelling about sueing BN and closing down the railroad until they installed GPS and computer controlled auto train stop that the crew can not override. Missouri is not unique. He has clones. He has clones, folks.

Not that such a device would be bad. In fact, it would have prevented this accident, and as mentioned above, nail the hotrods. But this M word person is just out to line his own pockets. And that sort of greed just irritates me to no end.

[wabash1]

It seems to me that all the train wrecks have been where there is ctc . now in my opinion it has to do with the way the speed is set up. the rule on a aproach is procede to next signal prepared to stop not exceeding 30 mph ( i am leaving some of the defination off on perpose) this is what most do. in abs territory when i take a approach i must reduce to meduim speed not exceeding 30 mph and prepare to stop at next signal. the differance is that in ctc they can run faster til they see the signal in abs you are prepared for the stop much sooner. by the rules In otherwords if you have a hotrod for a engineer he will run right on it in ctc territory and in abs there is no room for hotrods.

[JoeKoh]

Time will tell.Thank God no one was killed.
stay safe
Joe

[Anonymous]

Well...it happened again on my RR at Longview JCT. Another derailment, 75' from where a plack was erected to the dead crew members from another huge and deadly derailment 8 yrs. ago! Same circumstances. A southbound BN going through a crossover from Main2 to Main1. Luckily 2/3 of the BN was through the crossover when a northbound UP on Main2 either 'blew' a block or whatever and hit the rear portion of the BN. The UP personel will survive thank god. The BN crew probably did'nt know what happened. They just lost their air and thought maybe a bad air-hose or whatever. When circumstances like this occur, the dispatchers and the signal dept. will 'circle the wagons' and be very tight lipped. This was in CTC, so there should be a recording of the signal aspect in question. This will be very interesting to see how it all shakes out again...Hommie