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Wind Powered Transit Line

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:48 PM
    I thought they looked more "Iowish" to me.  The ones over the line in Minnesota have a single,tubular stem-like the ones in Larry's photo.  Near New Holland, Minnesota there are 100+, built on rolling hills and verdant green pastures.  I don't see how anybody could dislike the look of them: awe-inspiring, majestic, and whimsical, all at once.

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Posted by spokyone on Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:18 PM

This is an eye opener. Go Greenies

Iowa has nearly 900 wind turbines capable of producing 836 megawatts of electricity, enough to power about 226,000 average homes, according to the American Wind Energy Association. Planned projects -- besides the Franklin County farm -- would add 120 turbines capable of generating an additional 249 megawatts of electricity, the group said.

Texas leads the nation with 2,400 megawatts of wind energy installed and California has 2,323 megawatts.

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Posted by spokyone on Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:35 PM

Murph. Along Hiway 3 between Cherokee and Pocahatas is the northern edge of the area. When returning along US 20, that is the southern edge. The farm has been there for a while, but in 2005 we saw them erecting more. I can not remember exactly where. I will find out more. The sound they make is a hypnotizing swish, swish, swish. The mic was picking up to much wind noise.

Edit: there must be over 100, maybe 250

Another edit: They were building along US 18, which would be the northern edge of the farm. It is called, "The Algona Project"

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:30 PM

These are what's in an existing wind farm near me:

I think they may have come from Viet Nam.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:20 PM
 spokyone wrote:

While traveling to South Dakota recently, I shot this video with a cheap digital camera.Take a peek. Oh yeah. This is my first attempt
http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/spokybob/?action=view&current=MVI_1536.flv

  Are those in S.D.?, or just accross the line in Minnesota?

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Posted by Modelcar on Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:06 PM

....Spokyone:  I find nothing disturbing about those in your video knowing they are producing power for someone here in America with the power of the wind....Not far east oil...!

The ones I'm familiar with back in my home area in Pennsylvania are supported on a 200' round metal tube with a housing about the size of a school bus at the top for the generator and it's equipment and the blades of the unit about 95' each in length.  Everything painted white.

I believe they were made in Scandinavia.

Quentin

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Posted by Datafever on Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:27 PM

Words of encouragement are a-heading your way, spokyone.  Catch them quickly!!!  Thumbs Up [tup]

Thanks for sharing. 

"I'm sittin' in a railway station, Got a ticket for my destination..."
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Posted by spokyone on Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:59 PM
 Modelcar wrote:

 

.....I really can't fully understand why so many are against producing power from wind powered generators....

They seem harmless enough to me and I've been right to their base and witnessed their operation several times.

They make min. noise and what danger they create is lost on the way I see them.

They stand there gracefully and their blades rotate and not much else happens as they do their work of producing power to feed into a grid system.  Pollution free.

While traveling to South Dakota recently, I shot this video with a cheap digital camera.Take a peek. Oh yeah. This is my first attempt
http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/spokybob/?action=view&current=MVI_1536.flv

 

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Posted by MStLfan on Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:48 PM
 dknelson wrote:

Anyone else remember the article years ago in Model Railroad Craftsman about the rail line in Holland that carried passengers out over the dikes on a two axle flatcar with a SAIL on it?   Now that is wind powered transit ....

Dave Nelson

As a Dutchman I do not know if we ever had something like that, could have been when all the big dams, dikes and polders were made / reclaimed.

Your probably referring to the narrow gauge lines in the north of Germany, in an area called Nordfriesland. They are used to maintain small islands called Hallige and the people living on them have the right to use lorries to travel to the main land. The Hallige have no protecting dikes and homes are build on small manmade hills. Twice a day the tide covers all or part of the low lying areas.

See these websites (in German, but the first should not present to many problems):

http://www.karstenhansen.de/

http://www.halligen.de/halligen.phtml 

http://www.nordstrandischmoor.de/indexframe.htm

greetings,

Marc Immeker

 

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Posted by wallyworld on Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:31 PM
That was my poorly worded observation, in another words it would have to produce enough energy going downhill in excess of the power to drive the car uphill in order to begin a cycle.

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Posted by Modelcar on Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:22 PM

 

....Our roller coaster example from above post:  Energy {usually}, supplied by electricity propels coaster cars {weight}, to top of incline and then the cars have "potential energy"...{stored energy, if you will}, and as soon as they get the down side track that "energy" goes to work and the energy is released.  But in the first place, if the supplied energy wasn't there to do the job....the coaster cars would not move an inch.

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Posted by TH&B on Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:26 PM
OK, when I mentioned dynamic brakes I was refering to that if you can run a cable operated gravity train to bring loads down then this should be able to be done electricaly instead of cable. It would be the same principal.
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Posted by wallyworld on Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:20 PM
 Datafever wrote:

 440cuin wrote:
This isn't perpetual motion, it is gravity driven not momentum driven. 

True.  The "energy" used to drive the system is the weight of the coal loaded into the cars at the top. 

Sorry... I agree-I was referring to dynamic braking being used on a transit line to propel cars uphill...I should have been more specific. Gravity lines were also used for passenger service in rare instances. My apologies for the confusion.

Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.

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Posted by Datafever on Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:13 PM

 440cuin wrote:
This isn't perpetual motion, it is gravity driven not momentum driven. 

True.  The "energy" used to drive the system is the weight of the coal loaded into the cars at the top. 

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Posted by TH&B on Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:10 PM
This isn't perpetual motion, it is gravity driven not momentum driven. 
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Posted by wallyworld on Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:38 AM
 440cuin wrote:

Gravity railways have existed, mostly for hauling coal downhill in cable cars. The loaded coal cars would be heavy enough to bring the empties up on a cable car system. No power assiance neccessary.

 

I would think that in modern day this could be done electricaly as long as the train going up runs at the same time or quicker then the one going down with dynamic brake all the way.

I would think this would fall under the law of conservation, akin to a perpetual motion machine or "free energy". Although, there have been positive results with using the very same idea of momentum to utilise a flywheel which assists start up from a full stop. There is a private enterprise in England who is awaiting a team of scientists to independantly evaluate their claim that they have come up with a device that puts out more energy that is put in, but I have filed it away under the same catagory as cold fusion. I'll believe it when I see it.

Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:31 AM

 440cuin wrote:
I would think that in modern day this could be done electricaly as long as the train going up runs at the same time or quicker then the one going down with dynamic brake all the way.

And it was - GN.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by TH&B on Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:24 AM

Gravity railways have existed, mostly for hauling coal downhill in cable cars. The loaded coal cars would be heavy enough to bring the empties up on a cable car system. No power assiance neccessary.

 

I would think that in modern day this could be done electricaly as long as the train going up runs at the same time or quicker then the one going down with dynamic brake all the way.

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Posted by wallyworld on Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:05 AM
 Modelcar wrote:

 

...Uh....Larry.....The roller coaster....Don't you think you better count the power source that elevates the coaster cars to the top of the incline as the "primary source of energy" to do the work of the coaster......

Gravity can assist. How about a horse as a power source? In Denver, there was a well known horse car, Cherrelyn, that was propelled uphill by a horse and on the way downhill, the horse rode on the rear platform...In Ontario, California, the horse rode on a special trailer.

Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:46 AM

 Modelcar wrote:
...Uh....Larry.....The roller coaster....Don't you think you better count the power source that elevates the coaster cars to the top of the incline as the "primary source of energy" to do the work of the coaster......

I'll grant that - to a point (and did consider it in crafting my previous post).  However, once the coaster is at the top, gravity generally does the rest of the work.  It's a rare coaster that has more than one chain.  And the chain does not, in itself, impart the speed - that's all gravity.   If friction were not a factor, you could board a coaster at its highest point - which it would reach again after running around the rest of the course.

In the context suggested, a chain would be required at each end to gain enough elevation to make the train reach the other end.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Modelcar on Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:14 AM

 

...Uh....Larry.....The roller coaster....Don't you think you better count the power source that elevates the coaster cars to the top of the incline as the "primary source of energy" to do the work of the coaster......

Quentin

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:06 AM

 jclass wrote:
I've wondered if in some situations a system could be engineered where a train with a track with an upgrade at each end would be useful that would use only gravity for "propulsion".

In a perfect world, yes.  However, friction losses would require some outside form of propulsion or the train would never make it back up the 'other' hill.

On the other hand - there are dozens, if not hundreds of rail systems that operate using gravity as a primary source of propulsion - roller coasters.  Not necessarily a good commuter option, but...

LarryWhistling
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Posted by jclass on Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:33 AM

Yes, Dave. I think I remember that article.  For some reason I was thinking it was located in Germany, but maybe that was a different article (in TRAINS?).

I've wondered if in some situations a system could be engineered where a train with a track with an upgrade at each end would be useful that would use only gravity for "propulsion".

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Posted by dknelson on Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:16 AM

Anyone else remember the article years ago in Model Railroad Craftsman about the rail line in Holland that carried passengers out over the dikes on a two axle flatcar with a SAIL on it?   Now that is wind powered transit ....

Dave Nelson

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:20 AM

 jclass wrote:
Do these people think a dead tree is visual pollution?

A dead tree is "natural" and provides habitat - as long as it doesn't interfere with my view. 

A significant number of these folks go beyond "NIMBY" (not in my back yard) to "BANANA" (build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything). 

LarryWhistling
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Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
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Come ride the rails with me!
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Posted by emmar on Thursday, February 15, 2007 12:47 AM

 jclass wrote:
Do these people think a dead tree is visual pollution?

I don't think so, but I can say that I probably can't speak for nay environmentalist who doesn't support wind generated electricity. 

Yes we call it the Dinky. Why? Well cause it's dinky! Proud to be the official train geek of Princeton University!
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Posted by jclass on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 10:22 PM
Do these people think a dead tree is visual pollution?
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Posted by emmar on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:38 PM
 Datafever wrote:

 spokyone wrote:
 Datafever wrote:
One merely needs to visit the site of a radio transmission tower (which utilizes guy lines to keep it upright) to realize that birds are already being killed by the millions.
DF  Not the same thing. The blades are visible, just like a hawk. Wires are hard to see. I have visited the wind farms in NW Iowa, walking around below them. I saw birds in the air and not a dead one anywhere. If they miss my truck, they can miss a prop. Maybe it is the motion that the birds detect.

Thanks, spokyone.  Poor job of expressing myself again.  My intent was that the bird-loving environmentalists are attacking the wrong target. 

Most of the opposition to wind farms seems to be coming from people who are ignorant of the environmental impact studies that have been done on wind farms.  I am a " bird-loving environmentalist" and a supporter of the use of wind turbines to create electricity.

It has been proven that the turbines do not pose a large danger to birds because the wind turbulence around the blades actually pushes the birds around the blades not into them.

As far as "visual pollution" I actually find the appearance of the turbines I have seen in California to be attractive and that is not even comparing them to the ugly concrete nuclear power plants, dirty smog creating coal fired power plants and the dams that have destroyed many wild rivers and pristine wildernesses in the West.

SoapBox [soapbox]

 

--Imagine fields of gleaming wind turbines gracing the hills and plains creating clean quite electricity.--

 


 

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Posted by spokyone on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 12:22 PM
I guess your original remark went over my head while I was daydreaming about Florida Keys.

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