Tinted Windows

[potlatcher]

One thing I've noticed about modern diesels (C-44-9W's, SD-80's, etc . . .) is that all the cabs seem to be equipped with tinted windows. I'm sure this provides some additional comfort for crews from glare and/or heat from the sun. The same reasons folks have tinted windows on their cars. But I wonder what negative impact these windows might have in two different respects.

First, is it possible that tinted windows might affect crew safety? There have been incidents in the past of vandals throwing rocks (or worse) at trains as they pass. Certainly, some of these types don't care who or what they hurt. But there are others who might refrain if they are aware that there are human beings in the locomotive - humans who might be injured by their actions, or at least who might turn them in to the authorities. On the other hand, maybe crews feel safer behind the tinted glass?

The second area is in terms of public relations. For over a century and a half, a friendly wave between bystanders and the crew of a passing train has exemplified the public face of railroading. Generations of kids have grown up wanting to be just like the engineer who waved back, or even better, gave them a friendly toot on the whistle or horn. Nowadays, when I encourage my kids to wave at the engineer, how can they know if he is waving back from behind the tinted glass? And perhaps annoyed motorists at a grade crossing will stop to realize that the crew is just doing their job and trying to clear the crossing as soon as they can, if they can see them in the cab?

I think the railroads would recognize some real (but difficult to measure) benefits from replacing the tinted glass with clear. But, I'm not on the front lines, so I would be interested to see some input from train crews who can say how they feel about these issues.

[Bergie]

Interesting... I thought for sure one of your negative impacts would be worsened vision (out the side windows, of course) at night. I guess we've got three now.

Erik

[AltonFan]

A lot of times when I watch a train go by, the side windows are open, and the crew is visible.

[cabforward]

been a while since i was here (YA-W-W-W-N)..

it's been so long since i repeated something i said previously, i wanted to get back into the thick of it..

***
potlatcher,

r.rs. are kept on many short leashes.. there is fra, state govt. & union rules resulting from collective bargaining agreements....

r.rs. dont do anything unless they have to.. 99% of what they do in r.r. ops. results from edicts out of the 3 orgs. named above..

crew safety & tinted glass.. maybe a recent slackening of rules & laws governing visibility reqs.. the unions probably want them; the r.rs. probably dont, and the fra decided some tinting was appropriate.. so, the tint is there because crews have likely been laboring for it for many years..

public relations.. a concept which is virtually non-existent with r.r. mgmt.. many r.r. fans have positive experiences w/ crews, from waving, to sounding the horn, to inviting people to sit in the engineer's chair for a few minutes, at some risk to everyone in the crew, but anyway..

r.r. 'suits' could not care less about what people think of r.rs.. many people will disagree, and it's their right.. they will say r.rs. have spent $$ for a worthy local cause; the president attended our luncheon and made a speech.. r.rs. support the 'santa special' in appalachia.. these are good things, but these are also very public things, and these are also very anecdotal things..

historically, freight-hauling r.rs. have been very reluctant to respond to issues that fans feel strongly about, as photographing trains near r.r. property, esp. in areas where pilfering is a serious issue, or deaths are frequent..

crews are nervous about people standing near the r-o-w where heavy objects are heaved at the loco cab, so r.r police visit the area and run people off no matter who they are..

citizens get exercised about crossing safety and r.rs. seem to drag their feet for upgrading crossing controls..

r.r. mgmt. wants to attract the public when they sponsor special events such as opening a museum, an old station-***-gift shop, retirement of a favored piece of eqpt.. r.r. mgmt invites crowds of people to public events (opening of new/extended lines, facilities, christening of new eqpt.)..

r.rs. will never welcome casual passers-by to inspect trains that run in their neighborhood, walk along r-o-w while en route to fishing or hunting or as a short cut to a friend's house..

people have always wanted to do these things and r.rs. have always discouraged these practices..

the point is, r.rs welcome crowds to public events where there is a celebration going on and the r.r. can pick up good p.r..

r.rs. will never welcome or appreciate individual interest in their operations.. this attitude pre-dates 9/11 since the 'best friend of charleston' took its first run..

it is common to interpret this set of regards as unfriendly from the public viewpoint.. the r.rs. merely look at it as 'our property, our right to use it as we wish'..

the nature of r.r.-ing has always been, and always will be, an attractive nuisance to the curious, the railfan, common trespasser..

as far as building p.r. by allowing bystanders to see the crew, to wave at them and hope for a reuturn wave, that is an aspect of sight-seeing which is passing into history, like old-time trolley cars, the super chief, firemen, cabooses, etc..

r.rs. have a strict set of those whom they must please in order to continue their operations:
banks (lending & credit rating);
insurers (of r.r. prop, cargo);
stockholders;
shippers;
fed govt;
state govt;
unions..

the list is not conclusive nor is it the order preferred by r.rs..

when the issue comes to what would the r.rs. do to offer some enjoyment to people & fans generally, the r.rs. would say, visit our website and buy something with our name on it.. or they might say, buy a professionally-packaged set of photos; buy a model train or wall calendar with our name on it..

r.r. crewmen may post here that they welcome and react favorably when confronting railfans, etc.. i have no problem w/that.. the opening post asked what would the r.rs. do to open communication between crewmen and bystander.. i take this to be actions endorsed/permitted by r.r. mgmt, unions, etc.. there will always be individuals who act personally to show friendliness to 'outsiders', and i guess that's o.k.. the original post asked about r.r. mgmt. support to allow fans to see the crew inside the cab to wave to, and hope for a wave from, the crew.. modifying policy to allow tinting of r.r. cabs has to be an officially-sanctioned act of the r.r., not a crewman here & there..


not being a r.r. man, but also being a free-speaker, i say the r.rs. would do nothing to enable waves, smiles or any other signals between r.r.-der and fans.. tinted glass or no..

maybe it's sad, and maybe it's a good thing that we will always miss.. but no r.r. ever made $$ from being sensitive to anyone's feelings..

financial statements have no listing for helping the public feel good about the co.. this privilege is reserved for those who are due $$ from the co. and stockholders..

and so, i will return to this post in a few days to scan replies from those who have not read, or chosen to ignore, substantial portions of this post, in order to discuss the portions which they favor or oppose, not realizing portions which they chose to skip might well contain views with which they agree..

i would only quote martha stewart, who recently said, 'not guilty!'

[edblysard]

Potlatcher,
The tint is the same stuff you have applied to your car.
And, just like your car, if the window does break, it helps hold the pieces together.
Dosnt affect visability from the inside out one bit, its not that deep a tint.
It does keep the cabs a lot cooler, and on older units, the A/C aint that great, if it exsist at all.
On new models, its just about standard issue, especially on the Wide cab, or the North American cab.

Unions had little to do with it, its just part of the new generation of locomotives.
And, for the most part, it seems that engineers alway have the window open anyway, not real sure why mine does that, he whines about the heat, but leaves the window open, with the A/C on high, no matter what.
About the only time he closes the window is when it rains, and he still leaves it open a crack.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[JoeKoh]

I have seen the windows both open and closed.with the way the track is set here tinted windows would help with glare and improve safety.
stay safe
Joe

[wabash1]

The real reason that the glass is tinted and the cabs have air conditioning has nothing to do with crew comfort or the unions or anything close to what cab forward was talking about. the just of it is that the electronics need to be kept cool. the railroad dont care if your sitting in 100+ temp as long as the electronics are cool and working is all they care about. the monitors on the engines shut down just over 100 deg. if the air conditioning is not working and your sitting in the siding you dont need it anyways and they shut down. while moving you have air moving thru the cab do to the doors being open.

[Anonymous]

It makes it a lot easier to see the computer screens during the daylight, a little glare on them and you can't hardly see them at all. We didn't have this problem nearly so bad with the old gauges. MrCNJ

[kwboehm]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MrCNJ

It makes it a lot easier to see the computer screens during the daylight, a little glare on them and you can't hardly see them at all. We didn't have this problem nearly so bad with the old gauges. MrCNJ

C'mon you all just wanted to look stylish in the new units...next come the fuzzy dice, right?[;)]

[kenneo]

I can only see one possible drawback, and that is color shifts. A real bad example of such is the Red and Yellow block signal lights on the Santa Fe. If you wear "Blue Blocker" type glasses (either yellow tinted or grey tinted) a Red looks like a Yellow. A short while after the SP started running over Cajon on the joint parts of it with Santa Fe, there was a head-on near where the Colton Cutoff leaves the ATSF where the SP crew (legal by SP rules) were wearing "Blue Blockers" because of looking at the setting sun. Thought the signal was Yellow. It really was Red. All dead.

[AltonFan]

I am told airline pilots prefer Ray-Bans.

[Anonymous]

Interesting point..... I grew up waving at the engineer and the crew in the caboose.It was fun knowing you made a connection as you watched them wave back.It saddens me to think that the connection will be gone,but in the intrest of crew comfort,safety,and keeping those eletronics cool,I think it's a good idea.Besides, we all know that in this country 99% of the railroads "STILL" have crews aboard their trains..

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lazwerg

Interesting point..... I grew up waving at the engineer and the crew in the caboose.It was fun knowing you made a connection as you watched them wave back.It saddens me to think that the connection will be gone,but in the intrest of crew comfort,safety,and keeping those eletronics cool,I think it's a good idea.Besides, we all know that in this country 99% of the railroads "STILL" have crews aboard their trains..

If you waved at the engineer in the caboose, it is no wonder they took them off trains! [}:)]

Must be Monday - the Mookie is loosie!

Moo

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by lazwerg

Interesting point..... I grew up waving at the engineer and the crew in the caboose.It was fun knowing you made a connection as you watched them wave back.It saddens me to think that the connection will be gone,but in the intrest of crew comfort,safety,and keeping those eletronics cool,I think it's a good idea.Besides, we all know that in this country 99% of the railroads "STILL" have crews aboard their trains..

If you waved at the engineer in the caboose, it is no wonder they took them off trains! [}:)]

Must be Monday - the Mookie is loosie!

Moo

You are crazy girl. I like that . you can be my conductor anytime .