What kind of Switcher is this?

[Anonymous]

hello,

I am into model trains, and I have been curious for a while what kind of locomotive that is in a sawmill that my Dad works at.

http://www.geocities.com/puffie40/Switcher.html

can you tell me what kind of engine this is?

It is possible that a model might be advalible in HO?

Thanks!
Chris

[Anonymous]

Hello there.
Congratulations on your very first post[:p][^]. Wish you many more.
I am not the best person to answer this question, but my guess is thats a GE 50 ton. Looks like a GE, anyway.
Have a nice day now.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

It's a DT-2. About a dozen of these were built by CLC for Canadian Pacific around 1950. CLC was the licensee for Fairbanks-Morse at the time but these locomotives are not FM designs.

[Anonymous]

CLC also was a licensee for Baldwin and I believe that this is a Whitcomb design locomotive. Whitcomb was a division of Baldwin.

[Anonymous]

Wcleome to the forum, Chris! Have fun and post away! It's always great to see another Canadian on here.

The switcher clearly once belonged to CP because it stll has CP's old maroon and grey colours, but is now lettered for it's new owner. I wouldn't mind finding out more about the history of this engine and why it appears to be sitting on top of a gravel pile. It looks like it hasn't been used in years. If it's just being left to sit there and rust, it ought to be donated to a railroad museum. My dad works at a mine that used to use a switcher like this, plus 2 smaller ones, although they were gone before I was born. I don't know what ever happened to them.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sask_Tinplater

Wcleome to the forum, Chris! Have fun and post away! It's always great to see another Canadian on here.

The switcher clearly once belonged to CP because it stll has CP's old maroon and grey colours, but is now lettered for it's new owner. I wouldn't mind finding out more about the history of this engine and why it appears to be sitting on top of a gravel pile. It looks like it hasn't been used in years. If it's just being left to sit there and rust, it ought to be donated to a railroad museum. My dad works at a mine that used to use a switcher like this, plus 2 smaller ones, although they were gone before I was born. I don't know what ever happened to them.

Thanks for the welcome!! [:D] Great to be here to talk about trains!

The loco is at a sawmill in a small town called Canel Flats. The sawmill supposidly relied on railways to transport them. However, CP Rail started raising prices to haul them because they wanted to haul Commodites, such as grain, Gravel, ect. (I was told this and I am not sure if i'm right) The sawmill soon found it was cheaper to haul the logs and lumber by truck than by rail. How or why it got abandoned there I do not know. The gravel pile probably got there by snowplows during the winter.

Notice the yellow thing on one of the hoods? I bet that's a part of the train!

The pic was taken in 1995, when me and dad went down there to overlook the installation of some sawmill equipment. I was 8 at the time (I'm 16 now, and that's me on the train)[:I]

I took a look at a GE 45 tonner on the 'net, at it does bear some resemblence.

Thanks for the ID!

Chris

[Anonymous]

I'm young too (I'm 17 right now). There are quite a few other teenagers on here as well. Some of us here on the forums e-mail each other and chat on MSN. Feel free to e-mail me.

I'm from Saskatchewan, but I've been to B.C. 4 times before. I looked in a Canadian Road Atlas for Canal Flats and couldn't find it, so it must be small. What part of B.C. is it in? It always upsets me to see pieces of railroad equipment just left to rust. The saw mill obviously has no use for it. There must be a railroad museum somewhere nearby that would take it. Hey, if your dad works there, maybe even you could get and put in your back yard (Ha Ha).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sask_Tinplater

I'm young too (I'm 17 right now). There are quite a few other teenagers on here as well. Some of us here on the forums e-mail each other and chat on MSN. Feel free to e-mail me.

I'm from Saskatchewan, but I've been to B.C. 4 times before. I looked in a Canadian Road Atlas for Canal Flats and couldn't find it, so it must be small. What part of B.C. is it in? It always upsets me to see pieces of railroad equipment just left to rust. The saw mill obviously has no use for it. There must be a railroad museum somewhere nearby that would take it. Hey, if your dad works there, maybe even you could get and put in your back yard (Ha Ha).

Wish I could [:D]

Hey, glad to hear that there's people my age talking in this group.

I updated the page with another dt-2 this time in a small village called elko. It is in remarkibly better shape mainly because it's not in the middle of the lumberyard like the one in Canal flats is.

As for finding canel flats, try mapquest.com.

Chris

[Anonymous]

there was an old whitcomd switcher in us up to the 1940's at the old Tahawus mines in the adirondaks. it was a side rod engine just like this one. it came from canada sometime around 1942.not much but it might be a clue.

[Anonymous]

Here's a great link with pictures of these engines, some of which are in the CP paint scheme the one at Canal Flats was:

www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel116.html

Also, at his link there's a "live steam" type model of one, but with a $7000 price tag, I don't think it would be the kind of thing within your budget:

www.carrslocomotives.com/DT2.htm

[Anonymous]

The 2 switchers that you are talking about are owned by Tembec Lumber.
They are for sale.I had a look at them they are not running and in very poor shape.
You would have to haul them out of there by truck and not to may groups would
want to spend that type of money.They have not ran for about 15 years.
Canal Flats is about 1 hour north of Cranbrook BC.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigedd

The 2 switchers that you are talking about are owned by Tembec Lumber.
They are for sale.I had a look at them they are not running and in very poor shape.
You would have to haul them out of there by truck and not to may groups would
want to spend that type of money.They have not ran for about 15 years.
Canal Flats is about 1 hour north of Cranbrook BC.

Whoa... How'd you know that? I did'nt know they were for sale!
My dad thought Tembec was holding them for the Cranbrook Railway Museum.

Actually, my dad says when we moved here in 1989, the switchers where already in disrepair. His guess is that they stopped moving in the early 80's

The sawmill in Canal flats used to be called Crestbrook Forest Industries (CFI for short.) Hence the name on the switcher. They have a main HQ in Cranbrook, where my dad works.

The sawmill in Elko used to be run by a lumber company in Crowsnest past before CFI (Now called Tembec) took it over. I forgot the name, but that's why there's a different logo on that one.

[Grinandbearit]

Puffie40
The engines in the pictures are CLC (Canadian Locomotive Co.) DTC-2 Yard Switchers. They were built for CPR in 1960. A full discription is contained in the book by Don McQueen and Bill Thompson called " Constructed in Kingston". If you want more details e-mail me at [e-mail]. I have never seen a model of them but you never know.

[Anonymous]

I found a small database on the DT-2 locomotives at CP Rail. Here it is.

(Link) http://www.geocities.com/sdf-5/cpbloco.htm

 44 Ton D-T-C Diesel Hydraulic Switcher 

  Builder  CLC       CLC       CLC       CLC

  Built    Mar 1957  Jan 1958  May 1959  Apr 1960

  Class    HS-5a     HS-5b     HS-5c     HS-5d

  Numbers  10-11     12-16     17-18     19-23

When I looked at the one in elko, I noticed a painted over number "25"

The loco is powered by two D337 Cat engines.

Does anyone have an idea where the "Hydralic Power" comes in?

Chris

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

They might have a torque-converter drive instead of traction motors, similar to the various Krauss-Maffei imports on D&RGW and SP and the Alco C643H's on SP.

[kenneo]

Almost all diesel units in Europe are Diesel Hydrolics. Hydrolic power transmission instead of electric. Unusual for America.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

They might have a torque-converter drive instead of traction motors, similar to the various Krauss-Maffei imports on D&RGW and SP and the Alco C643H's on SP.

Yeah.. that makes sence [:I]

Hey guys! look what I found on the net! :

QUOTE: At 11:38 PM 03/01/2002 -0800, you wrote:
Does anybody know what happened to diesel hydraulic switcher #15.
Apparently it ran for a short time during the 1960's then was sold. Where
can I find out more about it.

CP 15 was a HS5b class diesel hydraulic engine built by CLC (builder's
#2993 built 1/58). It was a model DTC, DT2 or 44H44A1, I have seen all
three references to the models. It worked here around the mid-1960's then
went elsewhere to work. It was retired 9/69 and sold to Vennard &
Elithorpe the same month as their 15. It was then sold 1/78 to Crestbrook
Forest Industries as their 25 and is derelict there.

[Anonymous]

I have a black & white photo of that exact switcher that my father took many years ago.
It appears that it was #14. The switcher appears to be in pretty good shape in the photo - probably still operating. I don't know what year the photo was taken - probably in the 70's.
I don't have a scanner (yet) but I do have a digital camera so I could post a "photo of the photo" if anybody is interested.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kemarch001

I have a black & white photo of that exact switcher that my father took many years ago.

I don't have a scanner (yet) but I do have a digital camera so I could post a "photo of the photo" if anybody is interested.

Please do. I have a couple of pics of CPR DTC #15. Supposedly, they weren't very popular with the crews.. it was akin to switching with an RDC.

Chris-> I'm a big FM/CLC fan and back in the mid-80's, a friend and I looked into what it would take to kitbash a DTC. Heavily reworking a GE 60 tonner looked feasible, the hardest part was modeling the wheels. In reality, only one axle was driven, and the side rods transferred the energy to the other axle. Figuring out how to scratch build the counter weights on the wheels seemed to be tricky part for which we couldn't come up with a solution. Possibly cutting out and shaping pieces of styrene..?? For the side rods, we contemplated making them actually work like they did on the real thing. Either way, I chickened out as I had my hands full super-detailing old AHM C-Liner shells into CPR prototypes.

Here's a couple of b&w pics taken in Victoria, BC in 1958 by Gordon Hulford:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp-hs15bgh.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp-hs15agh.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp-hs15cgh.jpg

Good luck! If you decide to accept the challenge (insert "Mission Impossible" theme here [:D]) take lots of pictures along the way and submit it to Canadian Railway Modeller Magazine. It's sure to be published!

[daveklepper]

Correction: Most SWITCHER diesels in Europe are diesel-hydraulics, but most ROAD diesels are diesel-electrics. These are locomotives. There are also many diesel-mechanical railcars, some mu, and also many diesel-electric railcars. Dave Klepper

[Anonymous]

I was doing some more searching and info-finding. Here are my findings:

The Elko DT-2 is CPRail #15
The Canal Flats DT-2 is CPRail #14
Both appear to be soon headed to the Fort Steele museum to be restored.

It looks like 23 were made (EDIT: I found a site with a roster. They were numbered from 10 to 23. That means that there was 13 made) ,

I would be interested in ANY INFORMATION ON THE LOCATION OF ANY DT-2'S!

Here's some info on what I learned

#23: Scrapped in 1985 [:(]
#22: Used by South Simco Railway,in Ontario (Thanks KVR Fan!)
#21: N/A
#20: N/A
#19: In Champion Park, Okotoks, A.B.
#18: Scrapped In 1977 [:(]
#17: Parts Machine for #22 at South Simco Railway in Ontario
#16: N/A
#15: In Elko, B.C.
#14: In Canal Flats, B.C.
#13: Location N/A. Last owned by "Skibstead"?
#12: Privately owned in Thunder Bay
#11: N/A
#10: N/A

(Just a Note about this: I used the ownership database to record some of the Numbers. It does not give me anything about the location, and it does not have B.C. on the list, so it is incomplete.)

A pic of the switcher in Canal Flats is also in a Book Called "Critters, Dinkys And Centercabs"

Ownership Reports of switchers
http://www.railways.incanada.net/industrials/industrials.html

Fort Steele Railyard Pictoral & Info
http://www.geocities.com/fortsteelesteam/First.html

A DT-2 Roster. No info on it, except for the loco numbers
http://www.trainweb.org/galt-stn/cproster/locomotive/0010s/0010.htm

"The Comprehencive guide to Industrial Locomotives", "Critters, Dinkys, and Centercabs", Along with the locations of switchers.
http://www.sonic.net/~jayreed/

Thanks for the Pics of #15. About the model: I am Thinking "If you want somthing done right, you gotta do it yourself" So I'll see what I can do! [:D]

Keep those Pictures coming! [8D]

Chris

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the info, Chris! There is a rare book that came out in the early 80's called "Canadian Pacific Diesel Locomotives" that contains a wealth of info on the DTC's and their original destination and disposition. Many were scrapped from what I heard.

#22 was obtained by South Simco Railway and still retains its original colours and number. I have a pic of it taken in 1998. It's a tourist railway in Ontario.

http://www.steamtrain.com/

[Anonymous]

Would It happen to be this one?

http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Island/1284/ss22.jpg

I talked to a guy who works for the Fort Steele Railyard. The 2 DT-2's are going to be hauled over this may so one could be used as a Back-up locomotive! I'm happy to hear that!! [:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Having operated a D-T-C switcher (specifically ex-CPR #22) I can give you more details on these beasts. They are powered by two completely duplicated powertrains. The front powerplant powers the rear truck, and the rear one powers the front truck. The two powertrains cross over under the cab. The large access panels on the cab sides below the windows are how you get at the transmissions.

Each powerplant is a Caterpillar D337 diesel engine, with a TwinDisc clutch, torque converter, and two-speed reversing gearbox. This powertrain leads through a universal shaft to a final drive gearbox on the innermost axle of the truck.

[Anonymous]

WoW! Thanks for the information on they are powered! That was very interesting!

How many speeds did it have, and how fast could it go?

I'm hoping to get some more pics on one of them, and do some mesuring. I would like my model to be pretty close [:D]

I will redisign the "switcher Page" with all the information I have aquired. I'll keep you posted.

Chris

[Anonymous]

The gearbox was a two-speed reversing affair. Low and High range, forward and backward. The unit was designated for a top speed of 35 M.P.H. in high range, and you were supposed to change from low up to high range at around 12 M.P.H.

However, sustained running below 20 M.P.H. is difficult in high range, as the engine RPMs are low enough that you have trouble keeping the air compressors running fast enough to make up the air you are using (control system, horn, air brake trainline supply). You sometimes need to switch to low range just to keep th e RPMs up.

The really odd feature of the design was the torque converter. It used diesel fuel oil as its hydraulic transmission fluid -- from the main fuel tank! Once used in the torque converter as transmission oil, it is returned to the main fuel tank. In this way, the fuel tank (400 imp. gal.) acts as a very large transmission oil cooler!

The dual powertrain is a chronic problem in these units. Because of the two fully independent drives, if the two powerplants are not kept exactly synchronized, one always tends to lead, or pull, the other, which drags. In effect, the slightly faster powertrain pulls the unit along the rail, and the rail pulls on the other powertrain's clutch. This very quickly causes premature clutch wear, and we are always repairing/replacing clutches!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: The really odd feature of the design was the torque converter. It used diesel fuel oil as its hydraulic transmission fluid -- from the main fuel tank!

I heard that the Cat D9 of the same era used the same technique.

How easy is the switcher to drive?


I just revisited #14 in Canal Flats. It's in really poor shape. An interesting thing is that you can actually see where "Canadian Pacific" was painted over! [:D]

You know the yellow thing on the rear hood? That is a Cat torque converter. The rear of the engine under that hood is in pieces. Knowing what brakeman136 said about the drivetrain, the clutch probably gave out and they took it out for repairs.

Does anyone have information on #14? All I know is that CFI Bought it in 1968.

I'm not sure if I said this: #15 in elko was owned by Crowsnest Lumber before CFI bought the mill in 1978. I think it was remumbered from 25 to 651 before it was abandoned.

If anyone is interested in detailed pictures of both #14 and #15, send me an email. I have 6.75 Mb of pics on both of them.

Another interesting thing is that CLC made the gearbox that drives the wheels!

I also made a website on the dt-2:

http://www.geocities.com/puffie40/CLC_DT-2_Switcher.html

[Anonymous]

I recived word from my dad that #15 is going to be moved this monday (June 14) with #14 being moved the next day (June 15) (Interesting coincidence, eh?)
to Fort Steele. I'll see if I can get some pics of one being moved.

Chris

[Anonymous]

Dear Sir,


Here is a Link to a Newspaper Clipping of Two Cranes Unloading Ex CP 15 from Elko at Fort Steele, B.C. Ex CP 14 from Canal Flats was moved down, too.

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/cdnlococo/detail?.tok=phFGfUBBzngEkVxn&.dir=/Mail+Attachments&.dnm=d4a1.jpg&.src=ph


When Built, both Units had Two Diesel Engines, one on each side of Cab on an Angle with the Drive Shafts passing beneath the Cab Floor and Driving the Opposite Axle nearest the Cab.


Drive Shafts Off Set to Pass each other beneath Cab to Differentials on Inboard Axles.


The Two Outside Axles were Driven by Connecting Rods Outside the Truck Frames from Two Powered Axles Next to Cab similar to Connecting Rods on Steam Locomotives. Wheels inside Truck Frames.


The 'Front' of the Locomotive was Marked by an "F" and was the End that put the Engineer on the Right Hand Side.


Throttle Shown in one of the Photos was similar to that used on some CN Full Size CLC/FM Opposed Piston Diesel Electric Locomotives. The Throttle Lever Horizontal Slot is "U"-Shaped with Forward using one Slot, Reverse using the Other Slot, with Neutral in the Front Center of the Slots



These Units were purchased by CPR to be Under 44 Tons so they would not require a Fireman.


The Engineers Hated the Units, as they were rather small and could not Start and, especially, not STOP Heavy Cuts of Cars not on Air Brakes.


Another reason they were disliked was that the Engineer had to work the whole Shift alone, rather than change off with the Fireman, then Eat and Snooze.


Cunning Engineers would abuse these Units and female dog and Whine and Snivel until they got a Baldwin, Alco or MLW Series AND a Fireman.


Several of these Diesel Hydraulics wound up working their last days for CP in the Main Shops at Ogden in Calgary and Weston in Winnipeg.


CP 14 Arrived at Canal Flats in 1968 and operated there until c. 1980. Track Lifted and Unit isolated. ( It replaced a Home Built Critter made from a Small CP Steam Locomotive Tender on Arch Bar Trucks that had a GM Diesel Engine CHAIN Driving one Axle beneath the Tender.


This Critter was moved South to the then-new Crestbrook Pulp Mill at Skookumchuck, B.C. in 1968. Operated thru 1973. Replaced by Whiting Trackmoble. Cut Up May 1974. )


Canal Flats once had a Canal joining the Kootenay and Columbia Rivers. With all the Water, it is one of the Mosquito Capitals of the Kootenay Central.

We legally obtained the HS5 Class Plate from 14 around 1990, the CLC Diamond Builder's Plates, the other Class Plate and the Bell missing.

CP 15 was used at Elko until the early eighties, then used as a End-of-Track Buffer, ultimately getting shoved off the End of Steel by Switching Crews.


The CNI ( Crows Nest Industries ) Spur at Elko was Constructed in the late Sixties to access the Elko Saw Mill. The Spur was about 2 Miles long and was interesting in that it paralled a portion of the route of the 1937-Abandoned Great Northern Railway from Rexford, Montana which was Constructed into Canada in 1902 and ultimately reached the Coal Mine and Coke Ovens at Michel, B.C.


This Spur passed thru a Large Steel Corrigated Tube beneath the Main Drag in the City of Elko and was the location of many Derailments once 6-Axle Power came into use.


While on the Subject. I was of the impression that CP 15 at Elko came from the Shell Oil Sulphur Plant at Pecten/Drywood on the Pecten Subdivision South off the CPR Crowsnest Sub at Brocket, Alta., about 100 Miles East of Elko.


There were TWO 2 other DT2s at Coleman, Alta., at Coleman Collieries in the Seventies. One in Operation, and CP 23??? on it's side, for Parts. The Colliery also had a 4-Wheel GE? 25 Ton Loco. They Shipped 100 Cars of Coal a day, starting with the Coleman-Port Moody Coal Trains c. 1966, the First CP "Unit Trains."


Sulphur moved in "Unit Trains" too ex Brocket.

[Anonymous]

WOW! thanks for ALL of that info! [:D]

QUOTE: There were TWO 2 other DT2s at Coleman, Alta., at Coleman Collieries in the Seventies. One in Operation, and CP 23??? on it's side, for Parts.

I would think the other DT-2 that worked in Coleman is the one that is in Champion Park at Oaktoks (That's #19) #23 (I think #23 was eventually scrapped) was a parts machine as you said (As is #14 going to be for #15)

QUOTE: CP 15 was used at Elko until the early eighties, then used as a End-of-Track Buffer, ultimately getting shoved off the End of Steel by Switching Crews.

That would explain why the step ladders on the rear end was bashed in...

QUOTE: We legally obtained the HS5 Class Plate from 14 around 1990, the CLC Diamond Builder's Plates, the other Class Plate and the Bell are missing.

You know, if you give Fort Steele a pic of those plates (I would be curious as well! [:D] ) then maybe they could make some decals to replace those!

I guess a bell makes a nice novelty, so it could have been the first to get nicked...

QUOTE: The 'Front' of the Locomotive was Marked by an "F" and was the End that put the Engineer on the Right Hand Side.

...and decals in the cab to tell you the front and back

QUOTE: While on the Subject. I was of the impression that CP 15 at Elko came from the Shell Oil Sulphur Plant at Pecten/Drywood on the Pecten Subdivision South off the CPR Crowsnest Sub at Brocket, Alta., about 100 Miles East of Elko.

Crowsnest industries was under the ownership of Shell Canada before the mill was bought by Crestbrook.

QUOTE: CP 14 Arrived at Canal Flats in 1968 and operated there until c. 1980. Track Lifted and Unit isolated. ( It replaced a Home Built Critter made from a Small CP Steam Locomotive Tender on Arch Bar Trucks that had a GM Diesel Engine CHAIN Driving one Axle beneath the Tender.

Now a pic of that would be interesting!

There is still a Rail line running through the mill. It is "Condemed" right now, and cars that are used for loading are attached to a forklift or a log loader and pulled in and out.

I heard from a guy in Fort Steele that #14, when it was last running, was having problems with pulling cars, and had to had a forklift help it out.

QUOTE: The Engineers Hated the Units, as they were rather small and could not Start and, especially, not STOP Heavy Cuts of Cars not on Air Brakes.

Another reason they were disliked was that the Engineer had to work the whole Shift alone, rather than change off with the Fireman, then Eat and Snooze.

Cunning Engineers would abuse these Units and female dog and Whine and Snivel until they got a Baldwin, Alco or MLW Series AND a Fireman.

(That could explain all the cans of starting either around #15 [:S])

So you could say the DT-2's were high maintenace, underpowered and disliked by the lazy! :D Those poor things... [V]