Triple Crown-can't say they aren't trying

[Modelcar]

....It is just about due south of the Mall and McGalliard. If you approach Muncie from the north on Rt. 3...continue into Muncie on that old route that becomes Broadway...and that passes N-S on the east side of the Mall....Continue on downtown and right after you cross the NS tracks and the Cardinal Trail...look to your right front and you can turn in to the right to enter the Cardinal Trail parking lot and right to the Depot...I think anyone with railroad interests...will really like what they see. The building is on the historic register and had to be restored back to it's origianal appearance...and it sure does look nice.

[rrnut282]

Is it on the S side of McGalliard W of the mall?

[Modelcar]

....2-8-2: Your post is interesting....and you are thinking correct, the Cardinal Greenway Trail is on the former line...Cincinnatti to Chicago. If you get to Muncie you must take a look at the brick depot that served that line here in Muncie as it has been totally restored to it's original outside appearance...Including the newly installed roof dormers and clay tile roof. They are finishing up the inside of it now. It is really great looking now. It will be the Trail Head for the Greenway Trail offices and in addition will have some railroad artifacts on display. All new mechanicals have been insalled in it and it has lights displayed on the building now at night...Really great.

[rrnut282]

I know I'm jumping in late, but I was "out " when most of this discussion took place.
MC The N-S NS line was an old NKP branch from the NKP Chicago main in Fort Wayne and it goes down to New Castle (hence the New Castle District) where it swings onto an old PRR line through Richmond IN and over to Butler OH where it briefly joins CSX double track main into Cincinnatti or crosses over to its own line a few miles down the way. The E-W NS line is also ex NKP. Most of its traffic goes W to Alexandria and then goes up the NYC to Elkhart on the Water Level Route and on to Chicago. Some goes on to Frankfort. Not much goes W of Frankfort. At Muncie, this line goes more NE up to Portland IN and Celina OH and eventually Bellvue OH.

It was my understanding the the Cardinal Trail was on the old C&O Cincinnatti -Chicago line.

Someone mentioned a former narrow gage line. That would be the former Clover Leaf Line (also a part of NKP). In its hey-day it ran from Toledo to St. Louis. In these parts it ran NE from Frankfort, crossed the New Castle District at Bluffton, and also joined the other NKP line in Ohio to run to Bellvue.

TAG It's not that unusual for NS to hold up a train here or there to let a Triple Crown get by. I heard the Dispatcher do it just this morning. If you saw it happen on the W side of Fort Wayne by the 'Hugo' interlocking, my guess is that the Triple Crown yard was waiting for this train. Three miles up the track at 'Mike Tower' Triple Crown trains diverge onto the old PRR line to Piqua Yard which is the main Triple Crown facility for NS. One TC used to run E on the old PRR out of Fort Wayne, but it has since been re-routed. Check out this site for more information: http://www.trainweb.org/fwarailfan/fortwayne_ops.htm TC trains are in a light blue color and it is updated as needed. I hope this helps.

[oltmannd]

Slack is generally a bad thing the RRs couldn't live without in the steam era/friction bearing era and is still a necessary evil as long as hump yards are around.

Slack comes from slop between the coupler parts and from the draft gear (think of it as a large stiff, highly damped spring that attaches the coupler to the car - most are made of rubber pads these days). The slop is never desirable, but the motion allowed by the draft gear can be.

Steam engines, by their nature, didn't develop much starting tractive effort (pulling force). This is why some steam engines had "boosters" on the trailing truck or tender truck. Friction bearings on the freight cars take about double the force to get them turning than they do to keep them moving. So, the only way a steam locomotive could start a train was one car at time. The engineer would take slack and then start forward, getting each car moving one at a time.

Diesels, by contrast, have tremendous starting tractive effort and roller bearings are have much lower friction threshhold to get turning, so trains can be started with the slack stretched - all cars start rolling at the same time.

The draft gear is needed at hump yards, to cushion the collison between the cars, so cars that are never humped don't need draft gear. This was (is) the theory behind the articulated intermodal cars. ATSF had as many as 10 platforms with slackless connectons since there was no need to protect for humping. Early stack trains made entirely from 5 well double stack cars had very little slack. There was a demo where an entire dining room table was set in rear container of a Seattle to NY stack train and when the train arrived in NY, all the dishes and silverware were still in place.

[wabash1]

The cushion underframe cars produce so much slack that it makes it almost impossible to keep it streched at all times, but the thing you must remeber is that the slack action and forces are multiplyed by these cars. it is better to stretch brake anytime you stop ( to keep people from cutting your train for one) so you dont haft to strecth your train and go its already done you just go.

As far as triple crown goes the trailers suspension is of no use as it is not being used. the boggies are used and the springs it has. no special train handling is needed as if you have no slack to run in and jar you or run out there is no way you can damage the goods.

[techguy57]

Okay, so I understand how the back ends of the TCs rest on the bogies and are secured, and I understand how they are coupled. I see how there is hardly any slack, but what I don't get is how less slack is a good thing for the freight. The trailers suspension must help somewhat, especially keeping things from bouncing up and down and side to side, but how about when starting stopping. Does the engineer just have to ride the throttle and braking controls?
And is there any difference in the braking system or how the engineer applies the brakes?

[Modelcar]

....No, just using that old common sense that Jen and I have batted around, but thanks for the comment.

[Anonymous]

You are a pretty sharp dude, that's what I use. I keep a couple in the bottom of my grip just in case. If they are rotary couplers they are easier. You can hold the knuckle in position with one hand and pull up on the pin lifter with your right. The pin lifter is built different on a rotary drawbar. The lever that hangs off of the side of the car is not connected to the drawbar.
Ken

[Modelcar]

.....Any possible chance of using a "bungy cord" to hold up the lever, if that is what is involved...to hold it in the up position while one works on the replacement....Something one could carry in your personal stuff when you board for work.

[Anonymous]

Its not that bad. Don't get me wrong, I would rather not do it. I think they weigh around 80lbs. The hardest part is getting the pin lifter to stay up (it keeps the pin up, if it falls the knuckle won't go into the drawhead) once you have gotten that accomplished, you've got her whipped.
Ken

[Modelcar]

....Wow, doing that knuckle replacement process of loading it up to move it back to the break sounds pretty neat. I always wonder when I see conversations about replacing knuckles......how much do they weigh..? Sounds like you are replacing it by yourself so it must be a pretty trying job to do....

[Anonymous]

Only one problem with having the salck bunched then pulling on them hard to give the engine a little advantage. I have to take a long walk! You can pull one in two like this. The engine takes off and the rear of the train wants to stay stopped. Psssssssst, got a knuckle. That's why the old heads used to stretch brake. It is against fuel conservation rules now, but, they used to put the 6lb slide to em to keep them stretched. If you have a junk train that is made up crappy, you really want to employ some train handling skills. Loads on the head end empties in the middle and loads on the rear. We do have certain trains that are exempt of train make up rules due to their origin, they are restricted to 45mph for this reason. Getting a knuckle isn't so bad if the hogger will drop a knuckle off for you. How it is done is you walk back to the break, close the angle ****, secure the second portion of the train. Tell the hogg if it is an E or F, he will drop the appropriate knuckle on the ground and mark it with a fusee if it is pitch black out. You pull ahead and pick up the knuckle and shove back to the break. Put it back together, and walk back to the head end and hope that it doesn't happen again.
Ken

[Modelcar]

....Thanks Ken, I can see it's a complicated subject. I've read reports of crew in the cabose being slamed around and injured from slack running one way or the other. I can understand if one has a loaded and high tonnage such as a coal train and in hilly terrain...it seems it would be an advantage to run the slack all "in" and perhaps give the engine a little advantage of getting the loads started simply by having less load at the point the engine starts to move and then picking up more and more as the slack runs "out"....

[Anonymous]

The draftgear in the end of the cars (between the drawbar and the center sill) is a springloaded mechanism designed to buffer the car and its contents from being slammed around. Some cars also have end of car cushioning devices. Mostly boxcars, auto racks and some flats. The end of car cus. device allows the draft arm to slide in and out with spring resistance to further isolate the car from shock. These cars change how the slack action of a train reacts. You would have to ask Waba***o get into the nuts and bolts of this. I am not a hog.
Ken

[Modelcar]

....In ref. to above conversation about slack....Why is it really, that slack action is built into railroad car couplers...or is it just the fact that the parts have that much clearance and the complete train adds up to quite a bit of movement...?

[wabash1]

70 mph I didnt know we had any engines that would get over 61mph. slack action oh yea that is what i use to adjust the conductors posture. they sit right up when that happens. serouisly now over here it is 60 mph because of signals ( crossing at grade ) are set for 60. there is no slack and as far as hitting nose to rear of trailer in a turnout wont happen .

[Anonymous]

Yeah, that too. Never felt any run in/out. The hogger liked it.

[Modelcar]

....How about no slack...at least theoretically, isn't that a plus for the Engineer....?

[Anonymous]

Wabash, we run them at 70 as long as there are no empty TCSZ trailers in the consist. If there are it is 60. I cought my first one this week. I like 'em! No setouts or pickups. Hotbox....oops.....call the car toads to fix it. Sweeeeet!
Ken

[Modelcar]

Thanks Nora for the conformation of running through Pennsylvania....and Wabash, understand pretty much all you have related. T C still sounds attractive...Especially with so much less weight to pull over the distance. When they roll through Muncie here they sure are running quiet for the most part....I have seen two engines on some of them but usually it is one rather new N S engine. Of course the good continous rail through here on that line helps make them quiet but the train just gives the impression it is rolling rather easy as it passes. Not much fuss to it.

One thing I wonder about is the close coupled cars and whether they have any restrictions on moving through sharp curves into sidings, etc...Looks like making a sharp curve might cause interference with the trailer corners.

[wabash1]

Just a chance to clear up a few lose ends here.

1) speed a triple crown is allowed a max speed of 60 mph. they haft to abide to all slow orders and speed restrictions on curves. and there is several places on the east side of this country that is open land and the wind does affect these trains only as far as drag goes. these triple crown trains are just one big articulate car and thus means it takes power to move it and keep it moving . its not uncommon to have a triple crown in the 4000-4500. ton range

2) to build one of these is done by a truck bringing the load in stops dollies down then leaves a hoist picks it up puts it iin position and is secured to the first trailer and rest on the bogies pined and then they go to the next one and so on. not rocket science.

3) the owner of triple crown is the ns railroad it was originally was hauled with north american now it is all triple crown and truckers lease to triple crown to haul loads from terminal to consignee. what do they haul 40% auto parts and the rest is like any other company what ever they can put on a van. The only reason why i can say why they let a triple crown in front of a stack train is either the hog law was about to get the stack train or the triple crown was late and needed to make up time. the stack train may not have been able to keep track speed and hence let triple crown around. but i have seen triple crown not be able to keep track speed also .

4) the major reason for triple crown was that freight would be moved by rail and highway in such that a train would pull up to the nearest crossing to destination stop unhook and then let a trucker take off with the load the labor unions didnt like this and stopped this in its tracks.( this was when they had bogies built onto the trailers) now the triple crown operates like any other intermodel train just less weight and less exspense to do it. no railcar needed just couple and go. the tires and wear on bearings brakes and so on with the trailers are minimum as most all miles are by rail.

I hope this helps in answering some of your questions.

[Nora]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

I believe Triple Crown runs across Pennsylvania east and west on the old Pennsylvania R R route too...If anyone knows any different would you bring us up to speed on that...

I think you are right, I usually see a few of these every day around where we live & that is a former PRR line.

--Nora

[Modelcar]

....Tireman, that does sound interesting...wouldn't mind having a look at the train building. I was impressed with the way the bogies are installed under the trailers by seeing that situation on the website..re: Using the air suspension to raise the trailer and simply placing the trailer over the bogie...That is really neat and sure should be easy to sell to new areas...since no expensive equipment is needed to build the train, just a good space to maneuver the trailers into place over the rails.

I believe Triple Crown runs across Pennsylvania east and west on the old Pennsylvania R R route too...If anyone knows any different would you bring us up to speed on that...Johnstown, Altoona and Horseshoe Curve are in my home area and I'm familiar somewhat with that route through the Allegheny's. The total consept of carrying the trailers such as T C on the rails with minimum expense seems to be such a good method of moving goods...Wonder why it really hasn't caught on with more widespread appeal. Carrying freight without a truck driver [over the long haul], and truck [tractor], and also without a railcar seems to have quite a few pluses going for it. Plus the fact the complete tonnage is dramatically reduced allowing less power on the head end to do the job.

[Anonymous]

MC - if you ever get a chance, you will have to go to Fort Wayne and watch a train being built. It is simply amazing. 2 workers can build a 100 unit train in about 30 minutes.
You might also check out http://www.wabashnational.com/products/roadrailer. Under the operations manual link, there is an interesting video ( albeit a marketing one) that gives more information on how the trailer connects to the bogie and how a train is built.

[Modelcar]

....Tech...yes you're correct on the line to Newcastle and the one to Frankfort...and the line is as you called it...a trail. It is a trail in the making. It's name is Cardnal Greenway Trail and we now have 10 miles each way out of Muncie paved real smooth...It is really great. The rails were picked up about 1994...The trail will eventually reach Richmond and north to Marion and perhaps beyond. Our CSX Depot here in Muncie is being renovated totally into a Trail Head...to the tune of over $800,000...!! It is about a month away from completion. Will be very, very nice...even has the original real tile roof and dormers now.

Indian Creek RR must run through Anderson...

Tireman: Since we have a daily T C train running through here I must get up to the site with my trusty zoom lens and take a good close pic of that bogie design and then I can have a good look at it...Perticularly of the pins you mention. Thanks for the info.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie
I didn't realize Triple Crown is a company - and also saw how those trailers go from road to track! Very interesting - not sure I will ever see a real one, but if not - at least I have seen pictues!

Thanx

Mookie

A wholly owned subsidiary of NS, I believe

[mudchicken]

Tech Dude:

NKP Newcastle to Connersville is very much alive, now Wabash Central (WOHO), formerly Indiana Hi Rail (IHRC), related to JoeKoh's Maumee & Western... the Rushville leg, also taken over by IHRC, has been truncated and fallen victim to the NITU trails folly. Used to be home of IHRC's Alco RS-1m #167. What's left is Honey Creek RR and that is dying (Kaput since mid-2002?). Indian Creek runs from Anderson to the NW on the old PRR Richmond Branch...

[techguy57]

Mookie- Don't worry I was as lost as you. Haven't seen any TC trains up here, TOFC is getting to be a rarity more and more too.

Model Car- The NS line to Fort Wayne is the New Castle District sub right?
Then there is a sub that runs to Frankfort(Home of the Frankfort HotDogs[:D]. There was also a line to Cincy (is that the trail now). Does the Indian Creek RR line that runs up to Elkhart go through Muncie or is that Anderson? I was thinking it used to spur off the old Conrail line but I can't remember where. No matter how hard I try to remember I'm still forgetting things about my Hoosier homeland.

Oh, Close Encounters is a good flick. Older Spielberg movie with Richard Dreyfus among others. If you get a minute I recommend givig it a chance.

Mike