Hello everone,
I need some help. I am looking for specific information on Illinois Central Passenger trains. The two I am interested in the most is the "City of New Orleans" and the "Panama Limited".
Thanks in advance
icmr
Happy Railroading.
OK, here's a tidbit.
In the "Final Days" of private railroad passenger service the IC beat Amtrak to the punch and tried to turn the Panama Limited into a mixed train. The Panama ran overnight between Chicago and New Orleans.
The idea was to put a flexi-van flat on the train carrying premium priced freight. The freight would have left its origin in the afternoon and been delivered the next morning.
A tarriff was filed and preperations were made. Not one load was shipped. Pretty much proving that there was no market for overnight truckload freight service between Chicago and New Orleans.
But you don't know unless you try.
greyhounds,
Did the Panama handle any mail at that time?
greyhounds wrote: In the "Final Days" of private railroad passenger service the IC beat Amtrak to the punch and tried to turn the Panama Limited into a mixed train. The Panama ran overnight between Chicago and New Orleans. The idea was to put a flexi-van flat on the train carrying premium priced freight. The freight would have left its origin in the afternoon and been delivered the next morning. A tarriff was filed and preperations were made. Not one load was shipped. Pretty much proving that there was no market for overnight truckload freight service between Chicago and New Orleans.
Great idea, alright, but the I.C. may have had a different agenda. By adding one or more FREIGHT cars to The Panama Limited, the train and engine crews would have qualified for freight rate pay wherein 100-miles, not 150-miles, worked constitutes a basic day. This change would have driven the labor costs assigned to this train upwards, undoubtedly pushing its balance sheet further into the red. Increased operating costs would have made a future train off petition easier to justify before an I.C.C. examiner.
But, then, my argument does beg one question. Decades ago I remember seeing plenty of Flexi-Van flats equipped with pass-through steam pipes. Am I correct in assuming that these flats would have qualified as passenger train equipment?
jclass wrote: greyhounds, Did the Panama handle any mail at that time?
I don't know. The story was told to me by Al Watkins who was then Director of Intermodal Pricing at the ICG.
Al had worked intermodal on the North Shore, helped set it up on the Erie and came to the IC when the Mop took over the C&EI. Mail didn't come up in our conversation.
Thanks for the info. To be more specific I am looking for info around the 1960's when the Green diamond logo was used and the info Im looking for is equipment used on specific dates. Any dates in the green diamond era will be fine.
Thanks again.
Victor
Happy Railroading
OK, I rode both trains during the period 1967-1970. The City of New Orleans looked like an all-lightweight streamliner, from its E-units (2, usually) up front to the round-end observation that was used at least at the beginning of my riding, but possible dropped toward the end. But if I remember correctly the dining car was a much rebuilt older car, rebuilt to match the lightweights but still on 6-wheel trucks. The train did run solid from Chicago to New Orleans, except cars were added southbound and subtracted northbound for St. Louis, then this became a change-trains connection, and then a bus. Possibly in 1969, the train was discontiniued, and coaches were added to the Panama with a separate train name, "The Magnolia Star." On occasion, then two diners were used, but also on occasion just one. And sometimes three E's were on the point. I think there was a combination baggage-RPO car up front and sometimes additional head end equipment, sometimes spoiling the all-streamlined appearance, during the years that the City ran.
The Panama's diner was similar, and the rest of the train was pretty much lighweight sleepers, up to the change noted above. An exception was from Chicago to Carbondale and return, when a parlor-observation with an interior made to represent the New Orleans French Quarter handled the passengers from Chicago to Chamapaign-Urbana and to Carbondale. This was a blunt-end observation, switched-out southbound and added northbound, a much-rebuilt heavyweight on 6-wheel trucks.. Through cars to St. Louis ran from New Orleans, and there were drop sleepers from Chicago for Memphis and even one for Jackson, MS, addedd northbound. Not after the Magnolia Star was established, when the connection was a separate train or bus. I think the Panama also had a baggage-RPO until the mail was switched to trucks in 1968 or 1969.
I think most of the sleepers were ten and sixes. I don't remember any but smooth-sides cars used on these trains, no Budd stainless or fluted sides.
Correction. I rode these trains 1957-1970, not 1967-1970!
I also considered IC passenger service excellent. At the start of the era, near perfect, almost up to AT&SF standards, and still pretty good toward Amtrak.
daveklepper wrote: OK, I rode both trains during the period 1967-1970. The City of New Orleans looked like an all-lightweight streamliner, from its E-units (2, usually) up front to the round-end observation that was used at least at the beginning of my riding, but possible dropped toward the end. But if I remember correctly the dining car was a much rebuilt older car, rebuilt to match the lightweights but still on 6-wheel trucks. The train did run solid from Chicago to New Orleans, except cars were added southbound and subtracted northbound for St. Louis, then this became a change-trains connection, and then a bus. Possibly in 1969, the train was discontiniued, and coaches were added to the Panama with a separate train name, "The Magnolia Star." On occasion, then two diners were used, but also on occasion just one. And sometimes three E's were on the point. I think there was a combination baggage-RPO car up front and sometimes additional head end equipment, sometimes spoiling the all-streamlined appearance, during the years that the City ran. The Panama's diner was similar, and the rest of the train was pretty much lighweight sleepers, up to the change noted above. An exception was from Chicago to Carbondale and return, when a parlor-observation with an interior made to represent the New Orleans French Quarter handled the passengers from Chicago to Chamapaign-Urbana and to Carbondale. This was a blunt-end observation, switched-out southbound and added northbound, a much-rebuilt heavyweight on 6-wheel trucks.. Through cars to St. Louis ran from New Orleans, and there were drop sleepers from Chicago for Memphis and even one for Jackson, MS, addedd northbound. Not after the Magnolia Star was established, when the connection was a separate train or bus. I think the Panama also had a baggage-RPO until the mail was switched to trucks in 1968 or 1969. I think most of the sleepers were ten and sixes. I don't remember any but smooth-sides cars used on these trains, no Budd stainless or fluted sides.
"The City" was a day operation, day accomodations, from Chicago south to Carbondale, where it was customary to drop off the cars going on thru to St. Louis, and picked up the returning connection on the northbound leg. "The Panama" was originally the night train, all Pullman. Left NOLA in the evening, stop in Memphis around midnight and then into Chicago about morning. Some 600+- miles in a time of about 13/14 hours. The food onboard both trains, was always a treat, and frequent travelers got to know the crew members, and vice-versa. A good tipper would own the service!
A number of years ago, a model company,American Beauty, put out an excelent set of cars that could be modeled into about any IC pasenger train, and Hobbytown made some cast metal E-units that would pull as many cars as one wanted to run behind them.
These trains, The City of New Orlans and Panama Ltd. operated on what was a really well maitained and fast road. It was double, and in some places triple tracked, to create a fast operation, especially for the passenger trains.. Most of the line was operated at a speed only achieved on the NEC by Amtrak, today.
Corection to above, the through cars to and from St. Lousi were from and to New Orleans. Otherwise, yes, the Panama was the overnighter, all-Pullman and then just all-1st Class sleeper until the City of New Orleans was discontinued and its coaches added to the Panama as the Magnolia Star. And the City of New Orleans was the all day dawn to dusk train. I rode both a many times, not only on through trips on the Panama from New Orleans to Chicago, but also just down to Chapaign-Urbana and Carbondale, to and from Memphis, Memphis to Chapaign-Urbana, to and from Jackson, New Orleand to Jackson after a connection across the platform from the overnight TP-MP Houston - New Orleans train. Except for the Super Chief and El Cap, one could not find better food, smoother rides, better service, all around excellence on any trains in the USA at the time. Sure, the Merchants Limited was the equal but not any better! (But the track was never as smooth, only in spots.) The Pennsy was just as fast in the Corridor, but could not compair on other accounts. The Broadway and the Centry were fine also, but again the track wasn't as smooth. Well, yes maybe also the UP City of Los Angeles in the dome diner days, but the food was even better on the IC, and track was rougher on either the Northwestern or later the Milwaukee east of Omaha.
The IC provide a good Chicago - St. Louis service, separately, by the Green Diamond and an overnight train, but the Alton - Gulf Mobile and Ohio route was the bigger carrier, including through equipment to Texas via the MP.
Info from 1954 Official Guide.
CITY of NO - All coach train - Lv Chi 7:50am - Ar NO 12:15am (15min past midnight) - 921 miles - Ave speed 56mph - 22 intermediate stops - Car switching at both Carbondale & Memphis
Consist - Coaches Chi-NO, Coaches St.L-NO (in No.'s 201 & 202 Carbondale St.L), Diner Chi-NO (sometimes two depending on passenger load), Tavern/Lounge/Obs Chi-NO
PANAMA LIMITED - All Pullman train - Lv Chi 5:00pm - Ar NO 9:30am - Ave speed 56mph - 17 intermediate stops - Car switching at Carbondale, Memphis & Jackson
Consist - Slpr Chi-NO (6 Sec, 6 Rmt, 4 DBr), Slpr Chi-NO (10 Rmt, 5 DBr), Slpr Chi-NO (11 Dbr), Slpr Chi-NO (DR, 4 Comp, 4 DBr), Slpr Chi-NO (10 Rmt, 6DBr), Slpr/Obs Chi-NO (DBr, DR, Comp), Slpr* St.L-NO (10 Rmt, 6 DBr), Slpr* St.L-NO (6 Sec, 6 Rmt, 4 DBr), Slpr Chi-Jackson, MS (10 Rmt, 6DBr), Slpr Mem-NO (6 Sec, 6 Rmt, 4 DBr), Parlor Car Chi-Carbondale, Parlor Car Mem-NO, Twin Unit Diner Chi-NO, Buffet/Lounge* StL-NO
*Carried in No's 205 & 16 Carbondale-St.L
Other Lightweight IC Streamliners at the time were: The City of Miami - Chi & St.L - Florida (every 3rd Day) The Daylight & The Green Diamond Chi-StL, The Land o'Corn Chi-Waterloo, IA
Heavyweight Named Trains Were: The Louisiane Chi-NO, The Southern Express Chi-NO, The Creole NO-Chi, The Chickasaw StL-Mem, The Seminole Chi-Jacksonville, The Night Diamond, Chi-StL, The Hawkeye, Chi-Sioux City, The Irwin S. Cobb, Louisville-Fulton, The Delta Express Mem-Greenville, The Southwestern/Northeastern Limited Shreveport-Meridian
Additionally 5 Big Four (NYC) Chi-Cincy passenger trains including the streamlined James Whitcomb Riley were operated by the IC between Chi-Kankakee (54 miles)
Mark
A couple of more tidbits about ICRR passenger service. The City of NO in the late 40's and 1950s typically was a 15 car train but would carry up to 20 cars at peak travel times. Also in this time frame both it and the Panama carried only one head end car, a baggage car, no mail or express.
Trains magazine used to publish an annual listing of the fastest trains in the US. For several years after its inauguration the CNO topped the list with IIRC a 114 mph start to stop SCHEDULED speed for the 71 miles between Champaign and Effingham. This was a section of the road thad had in-cab signalling and predated ICC mandated speed limits. The CNO had a speedometer in its observation car and and I have personally seen it pegged at 120mph over this stretch.
Until outlawed in the 1960's IC coach passengers, like those on all other southern railroads, were racially segregated from Kentucky southward. At Central Station in Chicago the IC employed Passenger Service Reps ostensibly to assist boarding passengers. One of their duties was to direct passengers to various cars based on their destination. Blacks going to points in Kentucky and other southern states were directed to the head end coaches and whites to the rear coaches. Intrastate Illinois passengers could sit anywhere on the train. From Kentucky southward black passengers were not allowed in the observation lounge cars. Dining cars typically had two tables for black diners (across the aisle from each other and closest to the kitchen) which were partioned off from the rest of the seating area.
Mark:That is an interesting comment about the segregation on the IC. In my advanced adult years, I have often wondered if the IC trains were Jim Crow type operations. With so much of their business being Mississippi/Tennesee to Chicago African American business one would have thought the IC would have catered to that business. Of course the realities of the times probably dictated a policy.
In looking at the Official Guides of the 50's it is interesting to note the trains' services, mainly station stops deep in the South. It would be interesting to know how much of IC's African American business was handled on the Panama Ltd and City of New Orleans vs other trains.
ed
Very few Blacks rode the Panama Limited probably because it was pretty pricey what with the cost of a first class rail ticket plus the charge for Pullman accomodations. Ridership was largely business travelers and the more affluent passengers. In the 1960's and prior there were relatively few Blacks in the southern states served by the Panama that fit into either category. On the other hand I'd estimate ridership on the City of NO was about 40% Black north of Carbondale gradually shifting to 60% Black from Memphis southward.
The migration of Blacks from the South in those times resulted in an imbalance of passenger traffic on the IC. This necessitated running one more train north than ran south, The Creole, which ran only northbound. The Creole's equipment was deadheaded back south and not open to revenue passengers on the Southern Express which was a one coach only mail and express local making all stops from southern Illinois to New Orleans.
When the Creole arrived in Champaign it was largely filled with Black riders from the south. Its early evening departure made it a popular train for Champaign passengers and several coaches and a diner were added there for the trip to Chicago. As a Uof I student in the mid 50's I often rode the Creole home to Homewood on Friday nights. That old heavyweight diner put out some truly great food. I didn't always eat a full meal but never failed to have their specialty, hot apple pie which was the best I ever ate topped with either a scoop of vanilla ice cream or a big slice of cheddar cheese. Those pies were baked on the diner in a coal fired stove prior to departing Champaign.
Mark:
I remember looking at OGs and noticing there was an imbalance of passenger trains. Thanks for the info on why.
While I rode one IC train as a youth, I dont remember it. My aunt lived in Mattoon and her husband worked for the IC there. Thus she had a pass to ride all IC passenger trains at no charge and all others at half price. Her stories of riding the passenger train in the 60's probably contributed to my interest in trains. She would ride to Chicago every Wed morning with her best friend for lunch and shopping. That was her day off and she would take advantage of pass. Imagine the stories she told me, particularly about the Christmas lights on Michigan Avenue. I would have loved to have gone with her just once.
Your Aunt probably rode the Seminole which left Mattoon at 7:35 in the morning and put her in Central Station at 10:40 in plenty of time for a lunch in Chicago. Return was likely on either the Seminole leaving Chi at 5:10 or possibly the Louisiane which left at 7:45 but didn't get into Mattoon until the rather late hour of 11:10. Another possibility was the Illini which ran between Chicago and Carbondale. It had been discontinued prior to the 1954 date of my oldest OG. The Illini at one time was a popular train with passengers from southern and central Illinois going to and from Chicago and carried both an IC parlor car and a cafe lounge car though these were probably dropped in the latter years of its operation. For the life of me I can't remember its schedule but seem to recall it ran north to Chicago in the morning and back to Carbondale in the evening.
Somewhere I recall noting that you live in Valpariso. I remember the days when the PRR ran one or possibly two commuter trains from Valpo to Union Station in the morning and back at night. Also as a boy in the 1940's we'd often take Sunday afternoon trips over that way and I was always thrilled to see a train headed by one of the Pennsy's T-1 4-4-4-4's as we drove down old 4-lane super highway (at the time) US 30 east of Valpo. Recollections such as that will give you a clue to my age which was 74 as of last September.
While obviously not passenger trains, because of their many similarities I don't think its totally inappropriate to mention the strawberry trains which the IC ran until sometime in the 1950's. Each spring at the start and tail end of the season the IC carried one or two carloads of strawberries daily from south Louisiana to Chicago as part of the consist of either the Louisiane or the Creole. However at the height of the harvest the IC ran daily special trains consisting of up to 10 cars of strawberries carried in wood sided Railway Express reefers. These would be dispatched as passenger extras from Hammond, LA in the late afternoon arriving in Chicago mid morning the next day. They covered the 867 miles in 16+ hours which rivaled the schedules of both the Panama Limited and City of NO. When I remember them they were headed by one of the IC's high stepping 1100 series 4-6-2 passenger engines and stopped enroute only for crew and engine changes. Try as hard as I can, I can't remember whether they carried a coach or a caboose on the tail end for the conductor and rear brakeman to ride in. The much balloyhooed perishables express service which the BNSF/CSX inauguarated this past October from California to the east coast (5 days transit time at an average speed of 23 mph) couldn't hold a candle to the IC's stawberry specials of 50-60 years ago behind steam at that.
I think if you will check the very last timetable for IC passenger service, you will find that I am correct that the City of New Orleans was discontinued before the Amtrak startup. Unless for some reason the discontinuence that I experienced and that interfered with travel plans was some temporary matter due to trackwork or whatever. I'd be interested in someone checking this matter with the last IC timetable or if the suspension that I experienced was temporary, what was the reason?
The 1954 list shows the buffet lounge going through to New Orleans. At some point when I started riding, this car ran only Chicago - Carbondale, possibly starting around 1962.
KCSfan wrote: The migration of Blacks from the South in those times resulted in an imbalance of passenger traffic on the IC. This necessitated running one more train north than ran south, The Creole, which ran only northbound. The Creole's equipment was deadheaded back south and not open to revenue passengers on the Southern Express which was a one coach only mail and express local making all stops from southern Illinois to New Orleans.
Is it possible that the City of NO was dropped and then restored because of protests? Or did I encounter something unusual and what was it?
KCS,
One of my Dad's friends was a produce broker who did business through the Water St. produce market in Chicago. He would comment about how fast and reliable the IC was with strawberry shipments from Hammond, LA. He'd place his orders with the growers there, and the berries were delivered in Chicago the next day like clockwork.
daveklepper wrote: Is it possible that the City of NO was dropped and then restored because of protests? Or did I encounter something unusual and what was it?
I don't think so. I went to school in Champaign during the transistion to Amtrak. I don't recall the CNO being a "train off". I remember it rolling south of Champaign with an A-B-B E unit lash up. Sure was pretty. I also remember the IC's first intermodal trains behind those E's. An equally pleasing site.
The first Amtrak passenger fatalities came on the CNO. IIRC it was just a few days after Amtrak took over and the CNO was getting up near the century mark south of Champaign when an axle locked up on one of the E's. Six passengers died.
I was still at the U of I then, but I latter went to work for the ICG. A VP told me he was there when the VP Operations of the ICG was told of the wreck. The VPO's face literally went totally white. That surely must be a terrible thing to hear, that a passenger train you're responsible for has wrecked while running nearly 100 MPH.
A couple years ago I was having lunch with that same former VP who had told me the tale. In the conversation he referred to "The Lattest Wreck of the City of New Orleans". There was one passenger fatality in that one. Some things, unfortunately, do not change.
I'll go on. I met my X working at the ICG, so she knew the railroad. She was in bed asleep and I was watching TV when the news of the Kankakee wreck came over the tube. They showed pictures from a helicopter. We had long since left the railroad.
I went in and woke her up. I told her: "The City's wrecked and it's bad". She wasn't even mad that I woke her up. That train was the Soul of the Illinois Central. Somebody even wrote a song about it.
greyhounds wrote: daveklepper wrote: Is it possible that the City of NO was dropped and then restored because of protests? Or did I encounter something unusual and what was it? I don't think so. I went to school in Champaign during the transistion to Amtrak. I don't recall the CNO being a "train off". I remember it rolling south of Champaign with an A-B-B E unit lash up. Sure was pretty. I also remember the IC's first intermodal trains behind those E's. An equally pleasing site. The first Amtrak passenger fatalities came on the CNO. IIRC it was just a few days after Amtrak took over and the CNO was getting up near the century mark south of Champaign when an axle locked up on one of the E's. Six passengers died. I was still at the U of I then, but I latter went to work for the ICG. A VP told me he was there when the VP Operations of the ICG was told of the wreck. The VPO's face literally went totally white. That surely must be a terrible thing to hear, that a passenger train you're responsible for has wrecked while running nearly 100 MPH. A couple years ago I was having lunch with that same former VP who had told me the tale. In the conversation he referred to "The Lattest Wreck of the City of New Orleans". There was one passenger fatality in that one. Some things, unfortunately, do not change. I'll go on. I met my X working at the ICG, so she knew the railroad. She was in bed asleep and I was watching TV when the news of the Kankakee wreck came over the tube. They showed pictures from a helicopter. We had long since left the railroad. I went in and woke her up. I told her: "The City's wrecked and it's bad". She wasn't even mad that I woke her up. That train was the Soul of the Illinois Central. Somebody even wrote a song about it.
It may be an "Urban Ledgend" but I seem to recall that when the Steve Goodman/Arlo Guthrie song " City of New Orleans" was put forward in the Memphis, Tn. newspapers as a reason for the reinstatement of the name of the former IC train (nee-AMTRAK). At least in the 1970's it seemed to enjoy a resergence of ridership that was attributed strictly to the train? Can anoyone shed any light on this?
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