"Grow UP??"

[Bergie]

I had forgotten about this too. Sorry I was cranky, Kev.

I've locked this so we can all forget about it.

Erik

[Anonymous]

He's just trying to get more posts, thats all...nothing wrong with that.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by traingeek087

What's up with him, why's he so mad?

Whos him?

And if I'm Him, Yes i was Fairly..... well, distrought After recieveing a rather unnescesary repremand from the Chief.

But.. that was.. 1...2...3...4..5.... 5+ months ago, And I had forgotten all about what i was even upset about.

So, i'll try and forget again.

[traingeek087]

What's up with him, why's he so mad?

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CliqueofOne

It isn't as simple as a private company renaming the railway I've spent 33+ years with. This is one of the many symptoms of a railway that is now dieing of a cancer that has started since the 'Canadian National Railways' became a foreign owned company. The employees are very badly treated to the point of criminal activity. Once the older workers are gone the younger ones will be the ones to carry on. Fortunately the ones on the Signal Department are well educated.They have previous experience in other jobs become joining the department. They will not put up with the garbage that the older workers in most cases do. They got the smarts and H.H. knows it. And this bothers him. He knows or cares little of the department but he does realise that we do have the power to keep those trains running. He has shown nothing but contempt for not only the Signal Department but for every Canadian on the CNR. It really hurt when last falls issue of Trains magazine wrote such a glowing report on H.H. and the CNR while completely ignoring the ones who actually do the work. Any fool can cut employees along with tracks and allow deferred maintenance and show a profit. But that will go on for only so long. On the inside looking out. Gene B.

Gene - I am sorry I am not as up to speed as I should be - I knew there was some things going on up North - but just read past it, I guess. Didn't CN merge with WC? So that brings them more into the US. Am I right so far?

So is CN now a US company residing in Canada?

I DO understand the management policy - only too well. If that is the case, this will come to no good end, but only after years of suffering under the regime. And by then, the infrastructure will have been destroyed and there won't be much left. That is plain stupidity...you can't run something to death without repair/replace and good employees and expect it to remain competitive.

Unfortunately it is going exactly that way in too many industries in this day and age!

Jen

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

It appears my spelling becomes either worse, or more confrintational every day...I didn't know it was that bad! And apparently it takes some people 2 to 3 times to actually understand what i am really saying.. I really didn't know it WAS that bad, So, instead of being my usual self and saying my most common phrase "too bad" There must be a solution to this problem.

And i will find it, i'm glad someone pointed out t that this could be one of the major argument insentives, I should defenately consider improving then!

So, i'll take some extra time to edit my posts.

Kevin

Sorry, i really didn't know my English sucked to such an extent.

It would be like me hitting lefthanded.I can do it its just more difficult.Glad you stayed
stay safe[:D]
Joe

[Anonymous]

It appears my spelling becomes either worse, or more confrintational every day...I didn't know it was that bad! And apparently it takes some people 2 to 3 times to actually understand what i am really saying.. I really didn't know it WAS that bad, So, instead of being my usual self and saying my most common phrase "too bad" There must be a solution to this problem.

And i will find it, i'm glad someone pointed out t that this could be one of the major argument insentives, I should defenately consider improving then!

So, i'll take some extra time to edit my posts.

Kevin

Sorry, i really didn't know my English sucked to such an extent.

[CliqueofOne]

It isn't as simple as a private company renaming the railway I've spent 33+ years with. This is one of the many symptoms of a railway that is now dieing of a cancer that has started since the 'Canadian National Railways' became a foreign owned company. The employees are very badly treated to the point of criminal activity. Once the older workers are gone the younger ones will be the ones to carry on. Fortunately the ones on the Signal Department are well educated.They have previous experience in other jobs become joining the department. They will not put up with the garbage that the older workers in most cases do. They got the smarts and H.H. knows it. And this bothers him. He knows or cares little of the department but he does realise that we do have the power to keep those trains running. He has shown nothing but contempt for not only the Signal Department but for every Canadian on the CNR. It really hurt when last falls issue of Trains magazine wrote such a glowing report on H.H. and the CNR while completely ignoring the ones who actually do the work. Any fool can cut employees along with tracks and allow deferred maintenance and show a profit. But that will go on for only so long. On the inside looking out. Gene B.

[Bergie]

Now that I'm back in the office, I just want to make some quick points.

First, to Kevin's "...contratry to Eriks point, it is perfectly human to have little agruments." I don't care if there are constructive arguements in this forum. In fact, I'd say 10% of the content within this forum is one person's opionion versus another's, and they usually lead to arguements. I'm fine with that, until the digress into name calling and personal attacks. That's what aggrevated me, and others, about the thread I deleted last week (and prompted my Grow Up thread). When I get phone calls and e-mails from other people telling me there's a problem in the forum, I try to act quickly. When the best I can do to act quickly is to address it four hours later (after I finally arrived at my destination) and then have to connect via a hotel dial-up connection, my level of patience for what I encounter after that is pretty low. Once I saw personal attacks, I deleted it. It wasn't because of the disagreements or arguments, it was the name-calling.

You know what my biggest fear is about these name-calling episodes? Someday, two users who have had it out in the past will cross paths and something unconscionable will happen. Bottom line, you never know when you're ticking off the wrong guy.

And finally, to mplsstreetrwy's point about Kalmbach doing a better job of policing what happens here. First let me say that we intend our forums to be a place where enthusiasts can come together and share their love of the hobby, pasttime, etc. We simply don't have the manpower to watch every single post. (The only solution to better control what is said here is more staffing. The only way to do that is to charge a fee for using the site. I doubt any of you want to go there.) And frankly, it wouldn't be much of a forum if everyone felt they couldn't speak their mind. Just think about what I let happen around here. Didn't like the October issue. You can say so here and I don't delete it. Where else can you find a consumer product that lets you state your opinion about the topic one the product's own Web site?

Everyone just needs to use common sense before posting. Before hitting the Post New Reply button, step away from you computer. Take a deep breath. If you think what you're posting might be inappropriate, it probably is.

Like I've said to a few of you in e-mails, it kills me to have to be the guy that has to come in and drop the hammer. But it's my job to do so, and I'll continue to do it in the future if anything inappropriate takes place. Hopefully you'll all get a chance to meet me someday so you'll find out first hand that I'm not the bad guy.

Thanks,
Erik

[dharmon]

It would appear that CN has joined the UP/North Korea/Iran axis of evil. See I told you we need to invade N. Korea now.

[Mookie]

The topic wasn't the problem. Some of the rhetoric was.

But all has calmed down now and we are having a very civilized disagreement.

I may have missed something, but ....if the railroad is private, they should be allowed to name it anything they want. It may not set well with the Canadians and a lot of the US citizens - but who owns the name?

Someone clue me in ....I am open for a thinking adjustment, if needed.

Mookie

[CliqueofOne]

Has anyone else given any thought that the topic in question was closed because it was of an extremely sensitive subject. So sensitive in fact that to many it wasn't enough just ignore the subject but they wanted the whole topic canned. I agree that it got out of hand but why was it allowed to go to the extent that the topic was closed? What better way to eradicate a troublesome topic than let it degrade to the point of no return. Yes the moderator has the right to control these forums but to only allow opinions that he deems fit kind of makes this forum a one sided affair. And that doesn't sit right with this poster. Just my opinion. Gene B. Canadian National Railways.

[Mookie]

And Mookie has a voice.

Thank you Ed for sticking up for the rest of us.

Dave, my opinion is that you are being too ridgid. I come to this forum because I want to learn things about a subject I dearly love. But I also want to to know a little more about the people that are behind these postings. I don't want to have an in-depth get acquainted with them - just a couple of sentences about them so I can put a posting with an image of some sorts. If I wanted a dry discussion, I would read a textbook.

I enjoy the banter that goes back and forth. It starts my work day out with a smile. Besides, you draw out more people with a personal statement to them - makes them feel a little more like a part of a group than just a sidelines observer. Look how we drew you out! 99% of us don't fight and argue - we tease and have fun and learn a lot!

I live in the real midwest and don't understand all the postings on all the trains on the east coast. Some people are crazy about Amtrak or certain engines that run only back east. I don't get a lot out of those discussions - they aren't what interest me. I don't see them here in Lincoln - I see EMD's and Dash 9's, coal and freight. My interests lie there and with learning about grades and traction motors. Trying to make heads or tails out of how an engine operates or doesn't operate. I didn't take engineering and physics was very hard for me. I am ka-duh in those areas. But these people have been very patient with me in their explanations and I know a little more than I did a couple of years ago.

We have a big age range - from the very young (7th grade) to an octegenarian and some of us in-between. I haven't heard anyone complain about our forum on a whole, except when someone doesn't use good judgement and lets their mouth overload their brain. A human trait....

I invite you to join in with us, put your ridgidity aside and give us the benefit of your train knowledge. You may even decide we are a pretty fun bunch, as well as pretty well informed.

Jen -

(Mookie)

[edblysard]

Well,
We all goof up, some more than others.

And no, I did not say "because of his lack of english skills, Kevin's postings require..."
What I wrote was, " because english is Kevin's second language.."
By editing and modifying what I wrote, you changed the entire meaning of the sentence.
Which, by the way, is my entire beef with someone editing anyones postings, the point or meaning often is altered.

The compairson of this forum to dinner was on purpose, not a "old rhetorical trap of reducing an opponents argument to the absurd".
I dont find anything absurd with dinner, only some of the conversations I have heard over it.

I do find it absurd that, in that according to your "rules of rhetoric" this entire thread should not even exsist, and your original posting should never have see the eletronic page, because it is based only on opinions, not any hard facts, and you have failed to follow the very guidlines you promote.

Bergie should have shut this thread down after my first reply.

You state that your version of the rules are generaly accepted, yet I dont find them followed by the majority of the forum users here, so your statement fails the test of being a fact, and is reduced to an opinion only, as is the "GG1 is the greatest locomotive in the world" is nothing more than a opinion.

At my home, dinner is the forum time, all of my family, my children especially, and encouraged to particapate.

Grudges, gripes and compliments are all exchanged, in front of everybody.

No punishment is issued for transgressions, but advice and opposing points of veiw often are.
In this manner, mother and I get a chance to hear a lot of things most parents may not.
Most of the time, my kids see their own mistakes as soon as the speak them out loud, or see and hear the other person reaction to their words and actions.

In almost every debate I have watched or listened to, the moderator did nothing more than keep the debaters within their alloted time frames, subject matter was not edited, and personal attacked flourished.
Of course, these were, for the most part, political debates, but then again, most issues can be reduced to political points of view, if you try hard enough.

I do belive we should follow some simple guidlines, but that the guidlines should have a great deal of flex in them, because, in my opinion, we shouldnt exclude anyone who wants to particapate.

If you feel we should restrict participation, and base that on others lack of typing skills, or command of the english language, well, thats you opinion, not a fact. But you are entitled to it, and I would defend your right to think and feel that way, as would quite a few others here.
But I think your view is in the minority, here at least.

By placing limits on verbal exchange, you place limits on the exchange of information, which may or may not include any facts.

Your "rules" would reduce this forum to nothing more that a excerise in english skills, which wouldnt be fun, or turn it into a verbal chess game, somewhat like what we are doing now, which might be fun, but only for a few.

By the way, heres two facts...
one, I am late for work, and
two, Mookie isnt a guy, so its "her yellow thingies" not "his yellow thingies"
Get your facts right.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed,

Please don't fall into that old rhetorical trap of trying to make a point by reducing an opponent's argument to the absurd. I think there's a significant difference between having folks over for dinner and conducting a forum. If I invited folks over for dinner I'd expect and encourage a lively debate on a wide range of topics. Of course I'd also expect that they'd refrain from personal attacks, stick to facts as much as possible, and express themselves as clearly as they possibly can. Remember: table manners.

However, different rules apply when you're participating in a public forum such as this. In conducting a public forum, the host, in this case Kalmbach, has the right to decide what subjects will be talked about in these forums. In the case of this forum, talk is limited to "all aspects of railroading, from the freight railroads to Amtrak to museums and tourist lines. Post questions about the railfan hobby, comments on recent train trips, or anything else about railroading." That's a rule here. If you want to talk about something else, go to another forum.

In any event, the purpose of any forum is not to see how many participants can be attracted to the discussion. Rather, it is to shed additional light on some topic of mutual concern. The only requirement for participation is to accept the rules, which in any forum I'm familiar with are the ones I've mentioned: 1) no personalities; 2) stick to facts; 3) use commonly accepted patterns of language.

You say that you "dont think its possible to edit a on going conversation, but it is possible to moderate one, just as a debate has a moderator." Perhaps we agree on this point, if by moderate you mean seeing that the minimal rules I've stated above are adhered to. And I would add that the responsibility for moderating a forum is the responsibility of the one who's hosting it, in this case Kalmbach.

Look, all I'm trying to do is introduce a little civility and honesty in these postings, something I see as horribly lacking in some of them. I'm sure we can all agree that attacking people is out of line (despite what they do on talk radio and on the Sunday morning talk shows.) And I think some of us can agree that we have to get beyond the intellectual falsehood of having to agree with and respect as gospel everything a person says just because it's their opinion. That's nonsense!

If you want to say that orange is your favorite color, go ahead. That's a fact. If you want to say the GG-1 is your favorite electric locomotive, go ahead. That's a fact, too. But when you say orange is the best color or the GG-1 is the best electric locomotive ever built, offer facts and sound logic with your point or, as admiralh said in a posting on this subject awhile back, "it is perfectly acceptable and necessary to challenge folks on their conclusions if they don't back up what they say with facts." Don't expect the right to be taken at your word just because you said it, but expect to be challenged on your point. That's what a forum is all about.

As for language, I hope my point would be self-evident. How can we ever hope to communicate unless we agree to the meaning of the symbols we use to communicate (words) and the way we use them (grammar)? I don't agree with you at all when you say that "Nor do I think the Kings English is a requirement to convey ones point of view." I think it is. Otherwise, what you said about Kevin's posting is true:
"Often, because of his lack of english skills, Kevins posting require a lot of thought on the readers part to see what he was trying to say." It is the writer's responsibility to express themselves as clearly as possible, clearly enough so that the reader doesn't have to use "a lot of thought...to see what he was trying to say." It's downright aggravating, not fun, to take what a writer has written several ways, not knowing which way is the way they intended.

(Let me hasten to add here that I'm not putting anyone down for any lack of competency with the language they may have. I'm sure each of us, Kevin included, do the best we can at everything we do, including language. However, it is my hope that we can all see that the better we use the language,the better we can be understood. If we think we're being consistently misunderstood, perhaps that's a sign to improve our language skills a tad bit.)

This does not mean that Mookie can't do his "yellow thingies" postings, Jim can't do his funny postings, and Quinton his dry humor and comments. It just means they have to be free of personal attack, on subject, and expressed well enough to be understood by the average reader. I really don't think that's too much to ask.

Thanks for letting me share.

[Modelcar]

....Hi Ed, good reading, all of it....I've not had time to do any posting as we have visiters from the east and I've been on here today just a short time....But we do try to read many of the new daily postings.

[Anonymous]

Hello All,
Hope everyone had a good weekend. I just wanted to chime in and say that if anyone needs an example of how a civilized discussion is conducted, they need look no further than the last few posts exchanged by Ed and mplsstreetrwy.
I commend both of you in the way you conducted yourselves while discussing the issue.
That's they way it should be done, folks. No cencorship required, and everbody can have an enjoyable reading experience, while maybe even learning something.
Again, great job Ed and mplsstreetrwy. Thank you both for sharing your point of views.

Admiral

[edblysard]

[:D]Hi Jenny, Hi Quinton,
Sounds like your common sense sperad, and Dan got a large dose of it!
Couldnt agree more, we do have a choice.
Thats one of the differences between a internet forum thats free, and a book or magazine that you pay for.
You are purchasing a product,(information) and have the right to expect the goods to be valid.
Here, all you invest is your own time, and at no user fee so...
What does it cost you?
Nothing.

We still have to police ourselves, if for no other reason than the employees of Kalambach just flat dont have the time to read every single post.

Besides, they are not selling us the contents of this forum, they are, after all, our words and thoughts, not theirs.

What they are providing, in the hopes we purchase their magazines, books, railroadania, and that of the sponsers, is a place to talk, cuss and discuss and debate the eternal issue of GE vs. EMD, and cup cakes vs the whole chocolate cake.

Do some of us need a time out, or Dan's yellow card?

Maybe, but we are the ones who should issue it, via the e-mail function provided.

Of course, if they are a missouri twin, and have no e-mail, then its Erik and Davids turn.

I have noted a core group, and no, I am not going to try to name them all, because I would leave someone out and hurt their feelings, but they are there, none the less, that visits here daily, post quite a few threads and posting, and, when things do get out of hand, try to calm it down.

This group varies in size, but not in class or character, they all enjoy this forum, and the regulars here.

We do make allowences for each other, I know I can come off as a smart aleck, and most of you cut me some slack for it.

I cut Kevin slack, because I know english is his second language, so what may sound insulting isnt, its just him trying to write in a language thats backwards from what he speaks daily!

Is there a level, or set of standards we should follow?

I think we already do, this core group does anyway.

All in all, I find this one of the best forums I have visited, if only because it is different in its willingness not to follow ironclad rules of writing and speech.

I belive most of the core group dosnt feel like they have to impress anyone else, they are comfortable with what they read and write here, and with who they are, and what they know.

Take wabash1, I would bet hes a lot smarter than anyone of us thinks.

Does he come off pretentious or all knowing?
Nope, his posting, when you read them through a few times, and figure out what he is saying, make perfect sense, he has answered a lot of tough, little know questions, with several years of knowledge and experience.

Should we be willing to lose that knowledge, or the fun he creates, because he dosnt use the Kings English, or punctuation?

I, for one, would think it a great and terrible thing for him to leave, especially because of a set of writting rules that would slow him down.
I know what he does for a living, and I know time is limited for him here.
Why worry because he missed a comma, if I understand what he wrote.

So if thats all we really need to worry about, how someone writes, or what they write about, then we have way too much time on our hands!
Stay frosty,[:D]
Ed

[dharmon]

I have to side with Ed (the perpetual voice of reason) on this issue. When Eric or David has to intervene, then we the users have failed in our portion of the contract. When we joined this forum, we agreed to abide by a certain set of guidelines. The notions of free speech and right of expression are still there, as long as they fall within those guidelines, because they, the sponsor, own this site and are responsible for it's contents. If we can't play well in the sandbox, then shame on us.

Healthy and spirited debate should be supported and encouraged. But when it degrades into outright personal attacks and ugly name calling, the spirit and letter have been breached. Okay, well some would say...."So who are you to tell me what I can and what I can't post. If you don't like it, don't read it..." My response would be you are absolutely correct, I don't have that right, other than being one of the many users of this forum. And I can choose not to read the posts. But at some point, if I find that I can't read any of the posts, because all they contain is folks blasting one another, then I guess I leave and go somewhere else. I have that choice. But the posts here reflect on the forum and sponsor, so if nothing else, have some respect for the forum and sponsors.

I myself have pretty thick skin. In my particular line of work it is required. But the yard stick I use for most things, particularly in the off duty world is my illiterate, overprotected kids. For those that don't have kids, you would be surprised what they know and what they pick up on. It is alot easier for me to explain a sexual innuendo than to explain why folks are blasting each other over non-life or death issues. Limited Clear's FRED ...easy, 1000 years of hate and discontent in the Balkans ....no so much

I am in no way for censorship, editing or impinging upon the opinions expressed here. And I don't want folks leaving because they feel that their voice isn't welcome. However, I am not opposed to giving folks a warning or yellow card, like in soccer. I can't think of a sport, that does not eject players for misconduct....although I'm sure someone will correct me. Unfotunately that burden would have to fall on the sponsors. But who better to have the final say. Sorry guys, I know that you are busy enough already.


Unitl someone posts empirical data on why EMD is better that GE or vice versa, debate will and should continue freely in addition to all of the other posts of humor, information and whatever.

This is just one man's opinion. I'll take my yellow card and play on.

Dan

[Mookie]

Thanks Scottydog - I was thinking the same thing myself. Sounds like it would be more of a school than a forum and the Mook doesn't want to be lectured all the time. I have trouble enough with the details, without having a whole forum of details. Gotta have some interaction between people and keep it on a light note occasionally.

Jen

[Anonymous]

I state a fact and you know it is a true fact but my interpretation of that fact is different from yours. This is called opinion. It's the same in any forum be it this one or government. This is what makes us all unique individuals This is what makes these forums work. You can't just say this subject is all we will discuss with no deviation, there would be no point then to visit, it would be too boring.

[edblysard]

Up to a point.
But, imagine having guest over, and then, just before dinner, announcing that the topic at the dinner table is about trains, and only trains, and nothing but trains.
How would your guest feel?
Would they come back again?
What if the didnt know a thing about trains, and were trying to learn, but felt they shouldnt ask because of your disclaimer.
Doubt they would return.
And once you limit the content to a very narrow set of topics, you narrow the number of, and type of people who you would join in your conversation.
I dont think its possible to edit a on going conversation, but it is possible to moderate one, just as a debate has a moderator.
I stll dont think you can argue a fact, but I think you can argue an opinion, one thas based on facts, or your imterpatation of facts as you know them.
Which is what open debates are all about, the exchange of opinions, in a attempt to sway the other person or persons to your position or point of view.

What happened to Mitchells posting is a shame, not only because it go out of hand quickly, but because the attacks became personal real quick, and the original question, which was a very good subject, got lost, and the young man didnt get a answer or hear any debate based on his question.
Not to mention, a lot of adults acted like pre school kids.

As for grammer, spelling or un necessary wordiness, well, some of us have english, both written and spoken, as a second language.
I speak two languages, English, and bad english.
Nor do I think the Kings English is a requirement to convey ones point of view.
Often, because of his lack of english skills, Kevins posting require a lot of thought on the readers part to see what he was trying to say.
Which can be fun, as you can take what he has written several ways.
Frankly, I like Mookies "yellow thingies" postings, Jim's(planes) funny postings, and Quintons dry humor and comments.

I think if we start applying too many limitations, we will start losing people, good, funny, open and honest people, who have made this a fun forum to particapate in.
I did vist some of the "serious" railroad forums, and after reading a rather childish, but heated debate on how many rungs are on the ladder on the b end of a ACF three bay covered hopper, and how really boring it was, well, form a guy who climbs on one of these every day, it really dosnt make a bit of difference how many rungs there are, just that they are all there.
Posted that, and got some really nasty replys about how this was a serious forum, and they were having a discussion about real railroading, and didnt need an amature butting in.
Yeah, I think this forum, with all its faults, is a lot more fun.
Should the attacks stop?
Sure, but I dont think Erik, or anyone else has the power to stop tham, just moderate them.
Shutting down a topic should be the last resort, limiting peoples access should be the exception, instead of the norm.
Censorship dosnt compel open discussions and exchange of ideas, it just limits the people who particapate, as would spelling and grammer requirements.
THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION
Of coures, we could debate that forever, couldnt we?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed,

Thanks for the response to my posting. It's giving me an opportunity to clarify what I'm trying to say.

I agree with you that a forum is a public place or medium for open discussion. However, this particular forum is limited to "all aspects of railroading, from the freight railroads to Amtrak to museums and tourist lines. Post questions about the railfan hobby, comments on recent train trips, or anything else about railroading." Which by definition makes some of what is shared here off subject and irrelevant.

Now, in any forum there is bound to be disagreement. The question then becomes, how do you handle the inevitable disagreement so that light, not heat, is shed on the subject.

First of all, you keep personalities out of it. By that I mean no attacks against persons are allowed, period. For example, no one is stupid, lazy, etc. They may have their facts wrong, their logic on a certain point may have seen better days, but there is no room for personal attacks in a forum.

Secondly, you deal with facts, not opinions. As admiralh pointed out, you cannot argue opinions. I like blue, you like orange. How do you resolve that? You don't; and what's the point anyway?

Now we can have a lively discussion on what is the best electric locomotive. We can agree on a definition of "best", defining that term by agreeing on objective criteria (horsepower, tractive effort, maintenance record, etc) and then comparing electric locomotives to those objective criteria. (Little Joe, for example has a certain tractive effort, the GG-1 has a certain tractive effort. Which one's tractive effort is best? Same for the other objective criteria. Leave unobjective criteria like styling and color out of it; those issues can't be resolved. Yes, you can say that you prefer the styling and color of the GG-1 over any other electric locomotive, but you cannot say that the GG-1's styling and color are the best.

Facts are what make the discussion go, not opinions. As admiralh said, it is perfectly acceptable and necessary to challenge folks on their conclusions if they don't back up what they say with facts.

And I can't emphasize enough the importance of using the King's English correctly. You should no more dress your thoughts in error-laden grammar, spelling, and punctuation than you would go out in the world dressed inappropriately. Language, words, are to ideas what clothes are to us.

There's a difference between a forum and a bull-session, and it's a pretty clear line.
A forum has a moderator and rules, a bull session does not. And if Kalmbach wants a credible forum, not a bull session, they're going to have to step up to the plate and take responsibility for it. If they don't, they're going to continually get what they're getting now: a bull session.

As for Kalmbach being the thought police. I don't think it's out of order to block posts that are personal attacks, just mere unfounded opinions, or couched in language that has spelling and grammatical errors. This doesn't mean that Kalmbach has to check the facts, just to see that there's something there to keep an assertion from being an opinion.

Thanks for letting me share!

[edblysard]

It appears here because thats exactly what this forum is all about, opinions.

It is not a internet version of the Trains magazine, its a forum, where discussion about chocolate cakes, American pride, railroad and railroading, Canadian pride and uniheads is allowed, in fact, encouraged!
We even talk about trains, the real ones, every once in a while.

Your said we should only argue about facts, how?

Once you start to argue or debate, then one persons facts becomes their opinion, because the other person wouldnt accept those facts as true, and has their own set of facts to debate, so whos "facts" are true?

Because facts, by definition, are statement of truths, know to all as such.

Facts are not debatable, opinions, and opinions about facts, are.

One of them has to have false facts, or there would be nothing to debate in the first place.

If something is a fact, wouldnt that preclude arguement in the first place?.

How do you argue if Kevinstherrman is Canadian, which is a fact?

You can argue if hes a good Canadian(opinion) or bad Canadian(again, opinion) but you cant argue the fact that he's Canadian.

And I doubt you would find anyone to argue with over weather I was or wasnt a butthead, I often am, and thats a fact!

If all this site is allowed to deal with is facts only, then it would be nothing more that a reference site, with statistical data.

Who would decide what facts take precedence over other facts?

Is the GG1 the worlds best locomotive?

Prove it!

You cant, its only a opinion.

I would bet the farm that Erik B, and David Voss, would cringe if they were required to "edit" this site.
Their job is to moderate the postings, and edit the personal attacks and foul language out, at their descretion.
The reason magazines and newspapers have editors is because they publish and sell their product, which is the contents of their paper or magazine.
Because they are selling this information, or facts reported, they are required to make every effort to insure that the facts they publish are true and correct, as much as possible.

They do this by gathering at least two independent sources to verify their facts.

But no where is it required that what they write is absolute fact or truth, just their best educated guess, based on the information they gather.

Imagine Bergie having to go and check Don Clarks figures and information about the cost of high speed rail, and then edit Don's posting if he, Bergie, decided the facts were not correct?

Imagine Bergie having to do this to every posting here, several thousand of them!

If opinions were not allowed, then we would have to submit every posting to Bergie first, so he could edit them, which defeats the very purpose of this forum in the first place.

One of the definitions of the word forum is: a public place or medium for open discussion.

If what we write here is completly edited, then what is written here would be neither public, or open, discussion, but instead, it would be Bergies version or report on what we wrote.

I doubt that anyone here wants that, or wants the job of being the though police.
Well, almost every here wouldnt want the job!

Stay Frosty,
Ed[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

I think "Opinion" and "Educated opinion based on somesort of relivence" are what is being debated here, which i can see there is a clear difference on, Look if one on this frum has a Grudge against something, It is best not said, because the exactt hing you have a grudge against, someone will Defend till they Die. The fact is, just don't spew an opinion out unless you know it's A) factual or B) based on some sort of common sense. I can see, or as many of you could, that i don't sppreciate someone badmouthing Canada, for No apparent reason, if you hav3 a FACTUAL OPINION of why Canada sucks, i'm all for it! it msut be right! why because it is based on fact.

Look, as many of you keep writing, like the person stated "What is wrong with these people?" there is NOTHING wrong with these people, Myself included. as a matter of fact, What is Right with these people? simple: out of anger, they defend what they stand by, and no one will knock them down, especually people who don't know anyhting about the opinion they just stated.

I defend my actions, and have no regrets for the way i handled the situation, but as i can see many of you do, so it is there one of twon things wrong, I could continually keep blamming the site for it's intollerence to a slight squabble

Or i can start balmming myself, because maybe it's Me thats not right for the sight.. therefore.. that being the last blow, And me handling issues that come up diferently then msot of you would, because the people above agree, therefore stating that they would "NEVER get angry at somehting that they truly stand/stood by"

Let me get my parting shot in order...

So seeing as I handle my issues in an innapropriate way.. geez imagine that.. it's not like i have a DEC in psycology or anyhting.. oh waiti do! . No one appreciated or understands the true way to problem solving, then This site isn't right for me. Thanks for your time everyone and lsitening to what i've had to say over the last 6 months, To all who i have offended by arguing my point, ohhh boooo hoo.. thats too damn bad or should i say "That, my friend, is the Cost of doing business", and to all those who ever had soemhting nice to say to me, and were kind I thank you very much, My e-mail will still work, and maybe someday i'll get to meet those people in person, hey you never know!


Thers got to be another train site that might actually attempt to promote freedom of speech, and not Quash it! oh for those people still in the DARK, the post was called "CN downplaying being Canadian" and you can find it.. OH WAIT.. ERIK removed it!!!!

Gods speed everyone, Peace, and remember, contratry to Eriks point, it is perfectly human to have little agruments.
Kevin Ilaqua

See, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about in my previous posts. The writer misses the point of what's been talked about altogether. We're not saying we can't argue. We're not saying we can't disagree. It's not that we argue or have conflicts. It's how we handle those arguements, those conflicts. And the only way we can argue appropriately is to observe what I call the rules of rhetoric: make sure we're arguing about facts, not opinions; and use language that observes common rules of grammatical usage.

On these two points,Kevin's reply is unacceptable and the forum editor should never have allowed it to be published. (Can't you just see this in the pages of "Trains" magazine? If it wouldn't appear in "Trains", why does it appear here?

[Anonymous]

No one is saying we can't argue, discuss, have a constructive exchange of ideas, etc. Heck, that's what a forum is all about. Avoiding conflict isn't the answer. The question is how do we handle conflict when it occurs?

I find it useful to apply two simple rules. 1) Am I arguing over opinion or fact? and (2) what kind of language am I using to share that disagreement.

As he has in two other postings in this forum, admiralh has left us with the difference between opinion and fact. Taken from Taken from Encarta's on-line dictionaries: an opinion is a personal view, the view somebody takes about a certain issue, especially when it is based solely on personal judgment. A fact, on the other hand, is something known to be true: something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened; the truth or reality of something: the truth or actual existence of something, as opposed to the supposition of something or a belief about something.

"It would appear to me", he goes on, "that an opinion and fact are mutually exclusive. An opinion cannot be a fact, and a fact cannot be an opinion. Facts can be debated, opinions cannot."

To which I replied:

Failure to recognize the difference is not only dooming the usefulness of this forum, it is also dooming the ability to dialogue on any subject of any nature in any forum.

Yes, opinions are like anuses: everybody's got one. But just because you have one (an anus) doesn't mean you go around mooning everyone. Same with opinion: just because you have one doesn't mean it should be shared. There are laws and rules of civility that prohibit mooning. In the same way, there are rules against publishing opinions: these are known collectively as the rules of rhetoric, rules that demand opinions be backed with fact and logic before they can be shared and dressed up in decent, correct grammar when they are.

Sadly, most of what I read in these and other forums ignore commonly accepted rules of rhetoric. And, just because a person doesn't know what they are, that doesn't give them the right to violate them. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you want to share your ideas in this forum, observe the rules of rhetoric (or, if you don't know what they are, learn them) or just plain don't participate!

There are some, who unfortunately, will see my position as intellectual elitism. I assure you it is not. Just because you are entitled to an opinion doesn't mean that you are entitled to share it. You are entitled to share it when, like I said, you back it with data and logic (in which case it ceases to be an opinion and instead becomes a fact) and dress it in language that demonstrates acceptable usage.

I know the editors at the Kalmbach publications that sponsor these forums generally adhere to these principles when selecting materials to publish in print. I would appreciate it very much if they would do the same for these forums. As it stands now, these forums are loosing their credibility as a useful exchange of ideas, and not at all reflecting positively on Kalmbach Publishing. C'mon, guys; it's time to get back in the driver's seat. Just because the medium is different doesn't mean your responsibilities as editors have changed.

[wabash1]

Hey girl friend

as much as i like to ha***hings out with kevin just your light female touch to that key board. so if you do get kevin to come back because we like his personal point of view you need to be apart of the program also.in other words both of you need to come back and i wont change anything i do to kevin.

[edblysard]

Hey,
Now theres a though...
low maintainance, just chunk in a large rat or rabbit once a week, they dont bark, mess the floor, or need to be let out or walked.
And I can promise you, unwanted house guest dont stay to long.
The smallest Boas we have start at 4 feet.
So, if she cant have a dog, how about a snake?
Stay Frosty,
Ed[:D]

[Anonymous]

Girlfriend, no need to identify yourself. You give yourself away with proper spelling and grammar. That's not Kev. (just hackin' on ya bro!). C'mon Kev-unbunch your shorts and come back. I don't know what was said, but, screw them! Oh yeah, give your girlfriend the damn dog. There is a whole lot worse things that she could want. She could be asking for one of Ed's scaley reptile buddies.
Ken