France's Railroads

[zardoz]

In the Trains newswire of 9/23/03, there was an item about the nation's railroad's plan to modernize it's radio communication system on the country's 9000 miles of track! Either that is a typo, or the French have an incredibly interconnected rail system. 9000 miles of track in that small country! And we know how efficient the French rail system is, with their high-speed trains.

Amazing how a government operated railroad can be so well-run, modern, fast, efficient, and useful. And then there's AMTRAK, which could be so much more if was just given the opportunity.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

SNCF is primarily a passenger-oriented operation. Distances are relatively short and most operations are by way of Paris. I'm not sure what the restrictions are on highway competition (buses) but gasoline is heavily taxed so gas prices are appreciably higher than in the USA. Air competition is constrained by the short distances involved, so the time advantage for flying is minimal.
The engineering on the TGV lines is oriented to very-high-speed passenger trains exclusively. Grades are steeper than otherwise expected since trains are short and relatively overpowered.
There is also nothing in Europe with a distance between terminals comparable to our Chicago-West Coast trains (over 2000 miles between terminals).

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

SNCF is primarily a passenger-oriented operation. Distances are relatively short and most operations are by way of Paris. I'm not sure what the restrictions are on highway competition (buses) but gasoline is heavily taxed so gas prices are appreciably higher than in the USA. Air competition is constrained by the short distances involved, so the time advantage for flying is minimal.
The engineering on the TGV lines is oriented to very-high-speed passenger trains exclusively. Grades are steeper than otherwise expected since trains are short and relatively overpowered.
There is also nothing in Europe with a distance between terminals comparable to our Chicago-West Coast trains (over 2000 miles between terminals).

All of the above is true. It is much more convenient and economical to travel by rail for the short trips in Europe. The rail system is modern, well supported and efficient. A big factor though is nearly all of the railroads in Europe are state run, not just the passenger business. If in the US there was one railroad (the UP jokes aside), to handle both passenger (as a primary mode of travel) and freight it would be more efficient also. Don't confuse government run passenger service over privately owned rails with government controlled railroads. Two seperate things.

[dharmon]

Who am I kidding...we're talking about France....they should just be happy then trains runs and the station signs aren't in German.

[dehusman]

A friend of mine was involved in some engineering work involving some of their high speed equipment. From his observations, the concept of the French technical superiority were, as are many concepts of French superiority, mostly in the minds of the French. He said the windows on the TGV leaked like sieve, the engineering drawings weren't current with the designs actually being made, etc, etc.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

A friend of mine was involved in some engineering work involving some of their high speed equipment. From his observations, the concept of the French technical superiority were, as are many concepts of French superiority, mostly in the minds of the French. He said the windows on the TGV leaked like sieve, the engineering drawings weren't current with the designs actually being made, etc, etc.

I just believe it. French railroads are not efficient, but fast and impressive.
The SNCF is heavily overstaffed and many standards (like clearances) are obsolete. Even freight services lose money in there.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Most of my experience with the French railroads has been either with the TGV or the Eurostar, and both are impressive. Ifd there were only some way of going from london to say Geneva or Marseille without having to change stations in Paris it would be great. I understand the AVE trains are based on the TGV designs.

However, it is a mistake to compare the passenger rail service in Europe with the passenger rail service here in the US because of major differences in population densities between the US and most of the European countries

[PNWRMNM]

THE FAST SPEEDS AND MODERN TRAINS RELFECT THE KIND OF GOVERNMENT INVESTMENT IN RAILROADS THAT WE HAVE PUT INTO THE INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM. THE US GOVERNMENT IS NOT, AND HAS NOT BEEN SINCE TEDDY ROOSEVELT, A FRIEND OF THE RAILROAD INDUSTRY.

MAC

[FJ and G]

Mac,

Easy on the uppercases--you are absolutely correct; we have not invested in our railroads since Teddy. This year, the French spent about 3 billion to upgrade some bridges and realign some track to make speeds even faster. For a country that size (that is about to default on their debts and get in trouble with the EU) they sure spend some big bucks on their trains.

Change of topic:
Incidentally, during WWI, the French had thousands of miles of narrow gauge track. It was used to ferry supplies and troops to the warfront. The US supplied the French with a lot of railway equipment and engineering support. During WWII, the front was too fluid (maneuver warfare) to rebuild the narrow-gauge.

[jsanchez]

SNCF, does run a lot of freight also, I believe they have one of the highest market shares of any European system, I remember reading they had a target goal of freight trains averaging 60 mph , some of their freight is in the 100 mph range,I think the USA is in the 20 mph range. They have done a lot to advance freight railroading also. I don't think we here much about it since, it is not as glamourous as the TGV's or Chunnel trains( these haul freight also)

[Anonymous]

Obviously European passenger railways are a lot and A LOT more successful than trains in the USA. There's no need to comfort yourself by saying how much money they spend and how good your interstate highways are.

Take Germany for example. The Deutsche Bahn is punctual, convinient, fast, and reliable. And the German Autobahn is at least 10 times easier to drive on than American highways. How do I know? I've ridden both Amtrak and DB, and I've been on the highways of the USA and Germany.

So, face the facts. There are many things the United States is good at, but passenger rail is definitely not one of them.

[kenneo]

The comments about distances in Europe are functionally correct. The skys are "empty" in Europe except around the international airports. In fact, the trains (even NON-HighSpeed) generally beat the airplane city center to city center, and the train usually beats the highway on the "main lines". I have been back and forth to Europe from the US ever since I lived there in the late 1960's, and the LOCAL train between Frankfurt and Karlsruhe (my normal base in Europe) is faster that the Autobahn - and that includes the subway trip to Frankfurt HBF from Rhein-Main and the train change delay. 1:03 Min for the ICE, 1:13 for the regular, 1:30 for the local and 1:45 for the Autobahn. Last air service between Karlsruhe and R/M was pushing two hours downtown to downtown Krh-Fkf.