the disappearing telegraph poles

[Kozzie]

Over the next ten years some RRs will replace their radio system with either a new radio system that carries TCP/IP, or they will run fiber-optic cable to carry the TCP/IP. Why the need to carry TCP/IP? .....because this will become the new communications standard for RR....everyone else is using it, and it allows for easier integration with existing systems that also use TCP/IP as the network protocol.

http://www.switch.com/wayside/microlok_tcpip.html

 

Hey Cray Diamond - intersting that you mention fibre optics.  Downunder here in Queensland, Queensland Rail are using fibre optics on some of their rights-of-way, and offering spare capacity on the fibre optic cable to the telcoms - nice little earner!

Dave

[Anonymous]

Hi again,

Sorry to use the term "contractual obligation".  When you described the installation of the pole lines, you used the noun "renewal" so I thought there was some paper obligation that existed for the RRs to keep using the pole lines, whether they wanted to or not.  Also, when you cited the years, it sounded like they had to keep the lines over, let's say, a 10-year period of time before they could be replaced, which sounds like a contractual obligation.

I understand your logic about reduction of maintenance costs.  In the way you describe it, though, it sounds like individual pole lines could be adversely effected by the weather or individual wire thieves (i.e., a wire thief probably wouldn't go to the trouble of stealing ALL the wire from a long group of lines) could target individual poles.  So, would it be worth the trouble to take ALL of the upper arms down, for example?  On this same topic, with the advanced technologies you cite, aren't there certain individuals who would or could try to tap into these systems as well, just to PO the railroads?  I'm not at all familiar with how secure these technologies are, so pardon me in advance if this sounds like a silly question....

Riprap

Since the railway owns the pole line, the "contractual obligation" you mention doesn't exist.  The railway has freedom to do whatever it wants with its physical plant (just like you can choose to dispose or preserve your own possessions) unless that portion of the physical plant is encumbered by liens, or as restricted by ordnance or law.  In general local government bodies are happy to see the pole lines disappear as they consider them an eyesore and a hazard.

The reluctance to remove pole lines you inferred as "contractual obligation" is actually that there's a limit to how much money railways can invest in modernizing and improving their physical plant.  Money for improvement is always scarce and it's invested where it will create the maximum return.  Signaling systems get prioritized for renewal based on unreliability, availability of parts, maintenance costs, changes in operating patterns, changes in traffic density, availability of someone else's money (e.g., government investment in a line for use by commuter trains), and a route's long-term potential.  Thus you can see pole lines persisting on some very heavily used routes and even undergoing programmed renewal, because, for example, the traffic patterns are stable and projected traffic growth won't exceed the capacity of the signaling system, maintenance costs are not excessive, and -- most important -- there are more urgent demands for the railway's dollars elsewhere.

Probably within 20 years pole lines will be about as rare as cabooses are now.

S. Hadid

[Anonymous]

Hi again,

Sorry to use the term "contractual obligation".  When you described the installation of the pole lines, you used the noun "renewal" so I thought there was some paper obligation that existed for the RRs to keep using the pole lines, whether they wanted to or not.  Also, when you cited the years, it sounded like they had to keep the lines over, let's say, a 10-year period of time before they could be replaced, which sounds like a contractual obligation.

I understand your logic about reduction of maintenance costs.  In the way you describe it, though, it sounds like individual pole lines could be adversely effected by the weather or individual wire thieves (i.e., a wire thief probably wouldn't go to the trouble of stealing ALL the wire from a long group of lines) could target individual poles.  So, would it be worth the trouble to take ALL of the upper arms down, for example?  On this same topic, with the advanced technologies you cite, aren't there certain individuals who would or could try to tap into these systems as well, just to PO the railroads?  I'm not at all familiar with how secure these technologies are, so pardon me in advance if this sounds like a silly question....

Riprap

[Anonymous]

Hi again, 1435--

Thanks again!! Yes, all of which you write sounds quite logical.  Just one last thing:  before UP took over SP's line down to Eugene, SP had taken the step of removing two of the three "arms" from the pole lines, but retaining the one last arm. (I know, I'm weird for noticing, eh?)  Then, a few years after UP took over SP, they completely removed all traces of the pole lines.  How would those developments fit in with your contractual obligation (or would they?)

Riprap

Not sure what "contractual obligation" means. 

Removing crossarms and wires is very common.  What's usually removed is the obsolete voice circuits dating from when the railroad provided its own telephone network.  What remains is just the two ABS wires and sometimes (but not always) two power wires for the signalling system.  The wire is removed to reduce maintenance costs (and to get it before the wire thieves do).  If you don't remove the old wires, you have to maintain them, because when they break under stress of wind or ice they can and will take out or ground out the wires you want to keep.  Likewise, removing the superfluous crossarms keeps them from falling off onto the lines you want to keep, and breaking them.

S. Hadid

[Anonymous]

Hi again, 1435--

Thanks again!! Yes, all of which you write sounds quite logical.  Just one last thing:  before UP took over SP's line down to Eugene, SP had taken the step of removing two of the three "arms" from the pole lines, but retaining the one last arm. (I know, I'm weird for noticing, eh?)  Then, a few years after UP took over SP, they completely removed all traces of the pole lines.  How would those developments fit in with your contractual obligation (or would they?)

Riprap

[eolafan]

Whenever I see an old passenger car sitting alone or in groups, such as those used as dining areas at "theme" restaurants, I find myself always wondering about the people who rode in those cars over the years they were in regular service on their respective roads and the very many human interest stories that could have been seen or heard on them over the years. Likewise, when I see unused and dormant lineside telegraph poles along the ROW I often wonder about what messages might have been sent over them over the years.

Oh, and whenever I see a home abandoned while driving (such as old farm houses in WI, IL, and elsewhere) I very often find myself wondering about the lives of the families and people who lived there and  once owned the farms, etc.

I guess I am a real history facatic and have a wandering mind.

[Anonymous]

Hi, 1435--

Thanks for weighing in on this one, and I never thanked you for your very thoughtful and detailed response to one of my previous questions on the block signals.  Well taken!!

To answer a thought you had above with a possible answer, I lived in the Portland, OR metro area for several  years, and UP has taken over virtual control of all lines going out south and east.  All of the "pole lines" on the Eugene-bound line and all of the pole lines on the Graham Sub (all PDX-bound traffic from the East) have been removed.  The lines from the Kenton Sub (mostly Kalama, WA- or Seattle-bound traffic) have just recently been removed.  The one place I still see them are in the Columbia River Gorge, and perhaps all of those advanced technologies you refer to still cannot penetrate the narrow corridor through there.  It sounds like they too will meet their end.  From a safety point of view, one of the reasons I appreciated having the pole lines there was that they informed me the rail line was actually busy enough that I should probably use more caution when crossing the tracks.  Of course, if there were no pole lines before, the level of traffic was most likely neglible enough that less caution needed to be used. FWIW....

Riprap

I'm familiar with the UP through the Gorge and it's not THAT narrow.  It would be very easy to get good RF propagation there, and I expect UP already has it just to support their VHF radio.  The more plausible explanation for the continued use of a pole line in this location is that the signal system was renewed at a relatively late date and isn't yet due for another renewal.

To explain:  When a signaling system was installed de novo, historically, a pole line had to be created (or usually heavily upgraded) at that time.  Until the 1970s a pole line was pretty much an absolute requirement.  Signaling systems last a long time, and as a rule the pole line doesn't come out until the same time you upgrade the signaling system to a through-the-rail or RF system.  Any signaling system renewed after the 1970s generally went to a through-the-rail or RF system in lieu of a pole line.  The signaling systems currently being replaced are the ones dating to the 1940s and 1950s.  Those that were installed in the 1960s and 1970s are usually not the priority for replacement since they're not so obsolete and expensive to maintain as the older systems.  Having some knowledge of UP signaling installation dates stuck in my head, I recall that Troutdale-The Dalles was renewed in the 1960s or thereabouts, which would be why it hasn't been a priority for renewal like the other lines you mention.

S. Hadid

[Anonymous]

Hi, 1435--

Thanks for weighing in on this one, and I never thanked you for your very thoughtful and detailed response to one of my previous questions on the block signals.  Well taken!!

To answer a thought you had above with a possible answer, I lived in the Portland, OR metro area for several  years, and UP has taken over virtual control of all lines going out south and east.  All of the "pole lines" on the Eugene-bound line and all of the pole lines on the Graham Sub (all PDX-bound traffic from the East) have been removed.  The lines from the Kenton Sub (mostly Kalama, WA- or Seattle-bound traffic) have just recently been removed.  The one place I still see them are in the Columbia River Gorge, and perhaps all of those advanced technologies you refer to still cannot penetrate the narrow corridor through there.  It sounds like they too will meet their end.  From a safety point of view, one of the reasons I appreciated having the pole lines there was that they informed me the rail line was actually busy enough that I should probably use more caution when crossing the tracks.  Of course, if there were no pole lines before, the level of traffic was most likely neglible enough that less caution needed to be used. FWIW....

Riprap

[fuzzybroken]

My on this... a photo...
http://www.fuzzyworld3.com/pictures3/railroad/up01/fj.html

[Anonymous]

I haven't had many chances to see American railroads up close, but at least with the UP in Oregon, and the BNSF everywhere, the trend seems to be to take out all of the telegraph poles that would run on the ROW.  The explanation given me is that now all of this type of communication can be done by "radio".  My question:  Is this a national trend, or are there still certain kinds of lines or geographical conditions that allow the poles to stay where they are (I always kind of liked them, they gave a rhythm to the Amtrak riding experience)??  Just curious....

Riprap

Better to refer to them just as "poles" or the "pole line."  Telegraph is way before my career and I've been in railroading for 30 years now.  Telephone circuits were common into the 1980s but have almost completely disappeared from railroad pole lines.  The most common remaining function is to carry code (in CTC applications) and block-occupancy information (for ABS), and power for the signal system.  Electrical power remains the only application where the pole line can still be an economical solution.  (The alternative is buried cable.)  There's so far no way around having to provide utility power to installations, and even if you have cab signals you still need electrical power for switch-point indicators, slides fences, and so on. 

Through-the-rail code began the decimation of the pole lines and pure radio applications are eliminating what's left.  Peer-to-peer applications are reducing the load on the radio backhaul circuits, too.  I'm not aware of anyone using satellite (except as a back-up to radio when the radio circuits go down) due to the high cost of bandwidth for satellite.  As illustration, the cost for ONE locomotive in a communications-based train-control system, if it did all of its messaging by satellite, is over $1,000 per month.  Do that with a 100 locomotives for 10 years and you're talking real money.

I'm not aware of any geographic conditions that make pole lines advantageous over radio, but there are many geographic conditions that give you added incentive to get rid of pole lines:  places with heavy snowfall, places subject to ice storms, places with high theft rates.  In mountainous terrain where it would be expensive to install a lot of microwave towers to get good RF propagation the pole line might have more lasting power.

I'm a bit wistful about seeing pole lines come down and not unaware of the irony that I've spent a significant portion of my career building systems that eliminate them.  You could to some degree the importance of a route by glancing at the number of crossarms on the poles -- really important lines had TWO pole lines, one each side, carrying four or more crossarms each -- and when you came across them it affirmed something about that route that now isn't so obvious.  Like stick rail and open agencies, pole lines are part of my career.  I still can't get accustomed to seeing main lines sans pole lines -- in my experience if there wasn't a pole line, it was a branch line.

S. Hadid

[DPD1]

I remember when they pulled the poles on the line by my house when I was a kid. They had to use a logging machine to drag them all the way back to town. The good part was that it made a great path for us to ride our various motor vehicles on.

I think they were using them for code or something towards the end, because you could still hear them. After they took them down, they installed an underground cable. It's kind of nice not having them when it comes to photos, but it does seem like something is missing.

Dave
http://www.dpdproductions.com
- Featuring the TrainTenna Railroad Radio Antennas -

[chad thomas]

Welcome to the forum. I for one am glad they are dissapearing. For one reason is that they tend to get in the way of photographing trains. For another even better reason is that the radio technology that is replaceing them allows for laptop access to monitor train movement. By access I don't mean you can in any way controll or interfear with it, rather with a scanner and a laptop out in the field you can recieve the controll signal and with the proper software you can see what the dispatcher sees. Well, mabee not all the dispacher sees, but you can see switch settings and track occupancy and what routes are lined out. It's too cool.

how do you get to such goodies? is there a site for it?

http://www.atcsmon.com/

To get the software you need to join the yahoo group for ATCS. You also need a scanner modified for discriminator output. And you better check to see if it will even work in your area (there is a coverage map on the site above.

[CrazyDiamond]

Over the next ten years some RRs will replace their radio system with either a new radio system that carries TCP/IP, or they will run fiber-optic cable to carry the TCP/IP. Why the need to carry TCP/IP? .....because this will become the new communications standard for RR....everyone else is using it, and it allows for easier integration with existing systems that also use TCP/IP as the network protocol.

http://www.switch.com/wayside/microlok_tcpip.html

 

[canazar]

I just came back from vaction in CO where I RV'ed around for a week.   I forget what road it was but we where in SW CO following the Arkansas River where it appeared to be a railraod track follwing it.  My guess is it is a an old DnRG line.   Looks like it was last used in the early to middle 90's.   But what caught my eye was that one section, all of the poles were cut low and laying there.   Maybe 5-8 miles of it. Wondering if UP is yankin' out the poles maybe due to upgradeing the line.   be nice if they put back in action.

[CatFoodFlambe]

I suspect the railroads lost more time to downed wires than to damaged radio gear.    One good ice storm or strong thunderstorm can take down wires for miles - which take several days to repair at considerable expense.  

[samfp1943]

In today's world the biggest drawback with pole lines is wire theives. Due to the rural nature of most railroad right of ways there is no effective way to guard against wire theives who can come in and steal multiple spans of wire in short order and the go to the junk yard and sell the wire for its scrap value....all before the railroad, generally, knows the theft has even occured. Radio Code technology has improved over the years and has a high degree of reliability....right up until the time a thunderbolt zaps the radio equipment.

      Unless, of course, the effected part of the operation's employees can continue to operate with

       their 'illegal' personal cell phone. 

        Technology is a wonderful problem solver, only if you have it.

[Cheviot Hill]

Most of the remaining telegraph poles I have seen are used for signals - not communication and these are disappearing along with a signal upgade.

dd

At least around here CSX is installing Safetrans signal systems, which use satellite technology.

[Cheviot Hill]

I used the site at one time but I have had some computer work done and lost some files and that was one of them. If someone has the web address please share it. It was nice to watch train movements.

[dldance]

Most of the remaining telegraph poles I have seen are used for signals - not communication and these are disappearing along with a signal upgade.

dd

[Lord Atmo]

Welcome to the forum. I for one am glad they are dissapearing. For one reason is that they tend to get in the way of photographing trains. For another even better reason is that the radio technology that is replaceing them allows for laptop access to monitor train movement. By access I don't mean you can in any way controll or interfear with it, rather with a scanner and a laptop out in the field you can recieve the controll signal and with the proper software you can see what the dispatcher sees. Well, mabee not all the dispacher sees, but you can see switch settings and track occupancy and what routes are lined out. It's too cool.

how do you get to such goodies? is there a site for it?

[BaltACD]

In today's world the biggest drawback with pole lines is wire theives. Due to the rural nature of most railroad right of ways there is no effective way to guard against wire theives who can come in and steal multiple spans of wire in short order and the go to the junk yard and sell the wire for its scrap value....all before the railroad, generally, knows the theft has even occured.

Radio Code technology has improved over the years and has a high degree of reliability....right up until the time a thunderbolt zaps the radio equipment.

[Anonymous]

I've seen some rather unusual "hybrid" conditions, where the telegraph lines run several miles to a lineside radio equipment room and antenna, suggesting that control is first broadcast to the local room, then hard wired out to the last mile control points.

Kinda funny seeing the large arrays  on some poles harnessed into one bundle to enter the  line side radio rooms.

[chad thomas]

Welcome to the forum. I for one am glad they are dissapearing. For one reason is that they tend to get in the way of photographing trains. For another even better reason is that the radio technology that is replaceing them allows for laptop access to monitor train movement. By access I don't mean you can in any way controll or interfear with it, rather with a scanner and a laptop out in the field you can recieve the controll signal and with the proper software you can see what the dispatcher sees. Well, mabee not all the dispacher sees, but you can see switch settings and track occupancy and what routes are lined out. It's too cool.

[Anonymous]

I haven't had many chances to see American railroads up close, but at least with the UP in Oregon, and the BNSF everywhere, the trend seems to be to take out all of the telegraph poles that would run on the ROW.  The explanation given me is that now all of this type of communication can be done by "radio".  My question:  Is this a national trend, or are there still certain kinds of lines or geographical conditions that allow the poles to stay where they are (I always kind of liked them, they gave a rhythm to the Amtrak riding experience)??  Just curious....

Riprap