light rail definition

[Anonymous]

I urgently need the definition of "light rail". I can't get the whole thing from the glossary for some reason. I seem to recall it in the magazine in the past year or so. Can someone please help?
Scott Powers

[Anonymous]

I urgently need the definition of "light rail". I can't get the whole thing from the glossary for some reason. I seem to recall it in the magazine in the past year or so. Can someone please help?
Scott Powers

[kenneo]

I don't have a defination for you, but if I remember correctly, it has ti do with the FRA buff standards. If less that 800,000 lbs buff, it is light and the equipment can be built much lighter (like European equipment) and there can be NO PHYSICAL CONNECTION to a real railroad. If there is that connection then the equipment must meet all FRA standards and then become "heavy".

I realize the above is not just what you are looking for, but perhaps it will help.

[kenneo]

I don't have a defination for you, but if I remember correctly, it has ti do with the FRA buff standards. If less that 800,000 lbs buff, it is light and the equipment can be built much lighter (like European equipment) and there can be NO PHYSICAL CONNECTION to a real railroad. If there is that connection then the equipment must meet all FRA standards and then become "heavy".

I realize the above is not just what you are looking for, but perhaps it will help.

[cabforward]

i dont know the definition, but every light-rail discussion i have read was about mass rail transit.. it likely excludes freight service, and may limit the miles of r-o-w from the primary hub..

i wonder if interurbans would be considered light rail today.. units were of a passenger car design, the distance covered could be a hundred + miles, and there was a small section for freight storage.. they probably had a weight limit of 80-125lbs.. many lines operated multi-unit sets..

any thoughts?

[cabforward]

i dont know the definition, but every light-rail discussion i have read was about mass rail transit.. it likely excludes freight service, and may limit the miles of r-o-w from the primary hub..

i wonder if interurbans would be considered light rail today.. units were of a passenger car design, the distance covered could be a hundred + miles, and there was a small section for freight storage.. they probably had a weight limit of 80-125lbs.. many lines operated multi-unit sets..

any thoughts?

[mudchicken]

CabForward/EngineBackward: interurbans WERE regulated common carriers of light construction that were connected to the freight system in many cases....

Light Rail Transit: An electric RAILWAY constructed in a street or private right of way to transport passengers in an urban environment. Operations generally consist of trolleys or light rail vehicles - Dictionary of Railway Track Terms/ Simmons Boardman 1990

[mudchicken]

CabForward/EngineBackward: interurbans WERE regulated common carriers of light construction that were connected to the freight system in many cases....

Light Rail Transit: An electric RAILWAY constructed in a street or private right of way to transport passengers in an urban environment. Operations generally consist of trolleys or light rail vehicles - Dictionary of Railway Track Terms/ Simmons Boardman 1990

[mudchicken]

Transportation Research Board Definition:

Light Rail Transit (LRT) is a metropolitan electric railway system characterized by its ability to operate single cars or short trains along exclusive rights of way at ground level, on aerial structures, in subways, or occasionally, in streets, and to board and discharge passengers at track or car-floor level.....

http://www.ggw.org/rrtc/info/lightrail.html

Freight Railroaders Daffynition: Expensive Toy Train

[mudchicken]

Transportation Research Board Definition:

Light Rail Transit (LRT) is a metropolitan electric railway system characterized by its ability to operate single cars or short trains along exclusive rights of way at ground level, on aerial structures, in subways, or occasionally, in streets, and to board and discharge passengers at track or car-floor level.....

http://www.ggw.org/rrtc/info/lightrail.html

Freight Railroaders Daffynition: Expensive Toy Train

[cabforward]

muddchickencoop,

you're 99.9% right.. one system near houston, tx, operated with transit bus frames using diesel engines that were converted to operate only on rail 1948-61.. from late 20s-1948, it was electric.. it was the last interurban system that was started in america..

the electric units did haul freight.. after conversion to diesel bus frames, only passengers were transported..

a city transit system that operated in houston used std. gauge, which is odd.. most cities that prefer no r.r. freight pass thru their downtown due to the noise and damage to street surfaces..

this allowed the interurban to use another system's trackage for a terminus and turn-around point..

[cabforward]

muddchickencoop,

you're 99.9% right.. one system near houston, tx, operated with transit bus frames using diesel engines that were converted to operate only on rail 1948-61.. from late 20s-1948, it was electric.. it was the last interurban system that was started in america..

the electric units did haul freight.. after conversion to diesel bus frames, only passengers were transported..

a city transit system that operated in houston used std. gauge, which is odd.. most cities that prefer no r.r. freight pass thru their downtown due to the noise and damage to street surfaces..

this allowed the interurban to use another system's trackage for a terminus and turn-around point..

[Mookie]

Ahem - Gentlemen, if I may interrupt with a question.

They want to build a light rail from Lincoln to Omaha - Lincoln being the home as I understand it. Can this only be electric? Mileage would be about 60 miles.

Jen

[Mookie]

Ahem - Gentlemen, if I may interrupt with a question.

They want to build a light rail from Lincoln to Omaha - Lincoln being the home as I understand it. Can this only be electric? Mileage would be about 60 miles.

Jen

[CShaveRR]

I haven't heard of non-electric light rail systems; I suspect that any vehicle that contains an engine strong enough to propel itself would be too heavy for light rail.

I don't know, Sis...that Omaha-Lincoln proposal sounds a little strange to me. Sixty miles might be doable for a light-rail line, but I'm visualizing light rail as something that makes fairly frequent stops, and doesn't really offer a speed advantage, except perhaps during rush hours. I'm sure there are places to stop between Omaha and Lincoln, and don't doubt that a transit route could be justified. But I'd suspect that it might be better served by non-electrified commuter rail, using equipment like the new Colorado Railcar vehicle. Electrification is expensive, and if you're building a right-of-way anyway, I'd build it so it could handle heavier, faster stuff.

[CShaveRR]

I haven't heard of non-electric light rail systems; I suspect that any vehicle that contains an engine strong enough to propel itself would be too heavy for light rail.

I don't know, Sis...that Omaha-Lincoln proposal sounds a little strange to me. Sixty miles might be doable for a light-rail line, but I'm visualizing light rail as something that makes fairly frequent stops, and doesn't really offer a speed advantage, except perhaps during rush hours. I'm sure there are places to stop between Omaha and Lincoln, and don't doubt that a transit route could be justified. But I'd suspect that it might be better served by non-electrified commuter rail, using equipment like the new Colorado Railcar vehicle. Electrification is expensive, and if you're building a right-of-way anyway, I'd build it so it could handle heavier, faster stuff.

[mudchicken]

Head Mookie In Charge:

No, they don't have to be electric. Common terminology is "Commuter Rail". If you have seen Colorado/ Rader Railcar's DMU demonstrator. (The red & yellow updated RDC with crash protection) The obsession with electric railcars means a heck of a lot of cash spent on catenary. (Fairy Tale #1 that it's less polluting really means all that you are doing is moving the point source of the emissions + Fairy Tale # 2 that the electricity leaving the power station is the same amount of electricty that gets to the electric motor off the catenary theory creates the myth that light rail HAS to be electric.)
Add that to the non-railroad trained engineers and consultants singing the virtues of electric light rail and you have the messed-up transportation circus-world we're in currently.

Off of the battered old soapbox.

[mudchicken]

Head Mookie In Charge:

No, they don't have to be electric. Common terminology is "Commuter Rail". If you have seen Colorado/ Rader Railcar's DMU demonstrator. (The red & yellow updated RDC with crash protection) The obsession with electric railcars means a heck of a lot of cash spent on catenary. (Fairy Tale #1 that it's less polluting really means all that you are doing is moving the point source of the emissions + Fairy Tale # 2 that the electricity leaving the power station is the same amount of electricty that gets to the electric motor off the catenary theory creates the myth that light rail HAS to be electric.)
Add that to the non-railroad trained engineers and consultants singing the virtues of electric light rail and you have the messed-up transportation circus-world we're in currently.

Off of the battered old soapbox.

[Mookie]

thank you -

I know they are batting this around and the paper always says "light rail" - but it sounds very expensive and I can't imagine it would be well thought out - as is par for the course in at least Lincoln. We have had so many great ideas that we got into up to our necks and then dropped them, so while I think it is a nice idea, just not for us. Don't think we will get people off I-80 to ride it.

Mookie

[Mookie]

thank you -

I know they are batting this around and the paper always says "light rail" - but it sounds very expensive and I can't imagine it would be well thought out - as is par for the course in at least Lincoln. We have had so many great ideas that we got into up to our necks and then dropped them, so while I think it is a nice idea, just not for us. Don't think we will get people off I-80 to ride it.

Mookie

[kenneo]

Mookie --- There was, once and maybe still is, a steam line (read freight rialroad) that runs directly from Omaha to Lincoln, and my memory wants to say CBQ (read BNSF). If that is the case, the costs would be very much lower using that line with AMTK equipment. The TALGO would fit right in. They are used here on the AMTRAK Cascades and they are right fine trains.

[kenneo]

Mookie --- There was, once and maybe still is, a steam line (read freight rialroad) that runs directly from Omaha to Lincoln, and my memory wants to say CBQ (read BNSF). If that is the case, the costs would be very much lower using that line with AMTK equipment. The TALGO would fit right in. They are used here on the AMTRAK Cascades and they are right fine trains.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I have seen light rail defined as the child of a streetcar mother and a rapid transit father. Equipment is usually a modern streetcar-type design with MU capabilities and the trackage is usually a private right-of-way with occasional street running. Most new light rail construction looks like rapid transit on a smaller budget since you have ground level station platforms, catenary instead of third rail and 1-to-3 car trains.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I have seen light rail defined as the child of a streetcar mother and a rapid transit father. Equipment is usually a modern streetcar-type design with MU capabilities and the trackage is usually a private right-of-way with occasional street running. Most new light rail construction looks like rapid transit on a smaller budget since you have ground level station platforms, catenary instead of third rail and 1-to-3 car trains.

[Anonymous]

Guys,
The Colorado Railcar DMU is NOT a light rail vehicle.
Light rail systems are not built into conventional railroads standards, just like rapid transit, but it requires fewer investments to achieve a slightly smaller capacity. In general terms, it is possible to spend about half of what is needed for rapid transit to get a 20% smaller capacity.

To reduce investment, lower access platforms are used, and many lines are built at street level.

Theoretically, they can be diesel, but the fact is that almost every light rail vehicle is electric by now.

[Anonymous]

Guys,
The Colorado Railcar DMU is NOT a light rail vehicle.
Light rail systems are not built into conventional railroads standards, just like rapid transit, but it requires fewer investments to achieve a slightly smaller capacity. In general terms, it is possible to spend about half of what is needed for rapid transit to get a 20% smaller capacity.

To reduce investment, lower access platforms are used, and many lines are built at street level.

Theoretically, they can be diesel, but the fact is that almost every light rail vehicle is electric by now.

[mudchicken]

kenneo- first you have to get some level of ridership. Let the DMU's build the ridership before spending bucks on a Talgo set. Either is still big time cheaper than the electric option. Have seen the aftermath of wrecked SPV's ans an RDC at the test track at Pueblo (not pretty) and the concern is more the sideswipe and the truck/train issues. That DMU must be incredibly tough to meet the certification criteria. The politician and the non railroad "transportation engineers" (i.e.-rubber tired untrained dummies) jump on the electrified bandwagon either out of stupidity or because they see the costs as a way of preserving their beloved busses. (it's Firestone/GM vs. Pacific Electric all over again, and somewhat underhandedly - doesn't help when you have politicians in Cincinnati calling rail transit as "choo-choo's" (morons!)...........)

The CBQ line is just a slight bit busy. Better trying to revive the remains of the OLB interurban route.

[mudchicken]

kenneo- first you have to get some level of ridership. Let the DMU's build the ridership before spending bucks on a Talgo set. Either is still big time cheaper than the electric option. Have seen the aftermath of wrecked SPV's ans an RDC at the test track at Pueblo (not pretty) and the concern is more the sideswipe and the truck/train issues. That DMU must be incredibly tough to meet the certification criteria. The politician and the non railroad "transportation engineers" (i.e.-rubber tired untrained dummies) jump on the electrified bandwagon either out of stupidity or because they see the costs as a way of preserving their beloved busses. (it's Firestone/GM vs. Pacific Electric all over again, and somewhat underhandedly - doesn't help when you have politicians in Cincinnati calling rail transit as "choo-choo's" (morons!)...........)

The CBQ line is just a slight bit busy. Better trying to revive the remains of the OLB interurban route.

[TH&B]

Everybody keeps refering to electrifeing as always so expensive. But if the line is short enough and traffic is dense enough it can be cheaper on the long run.
Q: What about heavily used subway trains of 6 or more cars in larger cities, is that still light rail. In New York they sometimes move trains of 30 or40 subway cars long when transfering equipement, no passengers. And (this might be silly) but is there a "medium rail"?

[TH&B]

Everybody keeps refering to electrifeing as always so expensive. But if the line is short enough and traffic is dense enough it can be cheaper on the long run.
Q: What about heavily used subway trains of 6 or more cars in larger cities, is that still light rail. In New York they sometimes move trains of 30 or40 subway cars long when transfering equipement, no passengers. And (this might be silly) but is there a "medium rail"?