U.P. delaying Amtrak

[Anonymous]

When ever I ride Amtrak-which is quite often, and I'm unfortunate enough to be on the U.P. tracks, the delays seem to be rather intentional. Can anyone tell me why the U.P. delays passenger trains so much? Also, if there are any attorney's out there that are irriatated also-let me know-would a class action law suit get U.P.'s attention with this problem.

[Anonymous]

When ever I ride Amtrak-which is quite often, and I'm unfortunate enough to be on the U.P. tracks, the delays seem to be rather intentional. Can anyone tell me why the U.P. delays passenger trains so much? Also, if there are any attorney's out there that are irriatated also-let me know-would a class action law suit get U.P.'s attention with this problem.

[Mookie]

Amtrak runs over BNSF here in Lincoln and it startled me this morning - it was almost to the minute on time. Generally it runs about 2-3 hours late!

Maybe a right-wing conspiracy, but more inclined to think it is on Amtrak's side.

But these gentlemen will set us both straight!

Mookie

[Mookie]

Amtrak runs over BNSF here in Lincoln and it startled me this morning - it was almost to the minute on time. Generally it runs about 2-3 hours late!

Maybe a right-wing conspiracy, but more inclined to think it is on Amtrak's side.

But these gentlemen will set us both straight!

Mookie

[mudchicken]

To the UP dispatcher at Omaha, Amtrak is just another train. Under current rules (GCOR), passenger trains are not necessarilly "superior" to other trains, just another extra. Amtrak pays incentives to UPRR for on-time performance and UPRR loses incentive money when it delays trains. BUT, if Amthrax (national rail passenger disease) already is late and is interfering with other trains who are on schedule , oh well! What most do not see is the cascading delay in the system if one train starts delaying everything behind it, the snafu can be huge. The dispatcher is something of a juggling act artist and somebody above him may order to have Amtrak put in the hole to avoid larger problems and lo$$es (airlines do something similar at hub airports). Also Amtrak may fit in the hole (being a relatively short train) where the longer trains have nowhere to get out of the way at.

Asking an "expert at everything, proficient at none" attorney to fix the problem just creates more overhead and a higher ticket price in the end. Don't bother. (too many unavoidable costs and no passenger train at all!) Use the effort & frustration to vent at the local congressman and ask why he's ignoring Amtrak while handing the highway and airline lobbies a virtual blank check.

(P.S. - In my humble opinion, there are too few dispatchers per mile of railroad today. The industrial engineers and efficiency consultants fed the railroad upper management a fairy tale when they convinced them that fewer dispatchers means more efficient. This might also be part of what rayj102 is not seeing. Many a local roadswitcher or track gang never gets out of the hole all day because the ds is swamped! Dispatchers who have zero familiarity with their territories is another issue, especially when that territory is on the othe side of the country as is the case with most of the Class 1's and some of the regionals. )

[mudchicken]

To the UP dispatcher at Omaha, Amtrak is just another train. Under current rules (GCOR), passenger trains are not necessarilly "superior" to other trains, just another extra. Amtrak pays incentives to UPRR for on-time performance and UPRR loses incentive money when it delays trains. BUT, if Amthrax (national rail passenger disease) already is late and is interfering with other trains who are on schedule , oh well! What most do not see is the cascading delay in the system if one train starts delaying everything behind it, the snafu can be huge. The dispatcher is something of a juggling act artist and somebody above him may order to have Amtrak put in the hole to avoid larger problems and lo$$es (airlines do something similar at hub airports). Also Amtrak may fit in the hole (being a relatively short train) where the longer trains have nowhere to get out of the way at.

Asking an "expert at everything, proficient at none" attorney to fix the problem just creates more overhead and a higher ticket price in the end. Don't bother. (too many unavoidable costs and no passenger train at all!) Use the effort & frustration to vent at the local congressman and ask why he's ignoring Amtrak while handing the highway and airline lobbies a virtual blank check.

(P.S. - In my humble opinion, there are too few dispatchers per mile of railroad today. The industrial engineers and efficiency consultants fed the railroad upper management a fairy tale when they convinced them that fewer dispatchers means more efficient. This might also be part of what rayj102 is not seeing. Many a local roadswitcher or track gang never gets out of the hole all day because the ds is swamped! Dispatchers who have zero familiarity with their territories is another issue, especially when that territory is on the othe side of the country as is the case with most of the Class 1's and some of the regionals. )

[Puckdropper]

To prevent delays, what Amtrak needs is its own right of ways. The cost of these would already be signifigant, so why not elevate it and run high-speed trains? I think a route going from St Louis, Chicago, to Milwaukee or Indianapolis could be profitable. Fewer delays, and no grade crossings.

It could even be electified!

[Puckdropper]

To prevent delays, what Amtrak needs is its own right of ways. The cost of these would already be signifigant, so why not elevate it and run high-speed trains? I think a route going from St Louis, Chicago, to Milwaukee or Indianapolis could be profitable. Fewer delays, and no grade crossings.

It could even be electified!

[Willy2]

It would be nice if Amtrak could have its own right of ways, but at this time it doen not look likely so I think that the dispatchers should just be nice to Amtrak. It would be cool[8D] to have an electrified high speed system though.

Willy

[Willy2]

It would be nice if Amtrak could have its own right of ways, but at this time it doen not look likely so I think that the dispatchers should just be nice to Amtrak. It would be cool[8D] to have an electrified high speed system though.

Willy

[Anonymous]

Amtrak has delay's?? No, I don't believe it!! You must be mistaken!! Amtrak is a well run com.....??? Is Amtrak a company?? Who owns it if it is? Are the any outstanding shares of Amtrak?? If it is privatly held, does that mean the goverment owns it??
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Amtrak has delay's?? No, I don't believe it!! You must be mistaken!! Amtrak is a well run com.....??? Is Amtrak a company?? Who owns it if it is? Are the any outstanding shares of Amtrak?? If it is privatly held, does that mean the goverment owns it??
TIM A

[JoeKoh]

congress gives it money that means we own it(?)
stay safe
joe

[JoeKoh]

congress gives it money that means we own it(?)
stay safe
joe

[BentnoseWillie]

Amtrak is a company owned by the US government. It operates over the rails of private railroads except in the Northeast Corridor (NY to DC), which Amtrak owns.

As noted above, passenger trains do not have any priority under the GCOR - priority is assigned by the dispatching railroad. When UP ran its own passenger trains, then those trains had higher priority. Amtrak's on-time incentives are lower than the value of freight traffic, and since UP dispatchers get bonuses based on their contribution to the bottom line (by moving the higher-value freight trraffic), Amtrak trains get stabbed for freight.

No conspiracy, aside from the railroad officials making their own operations thrive, not the operations of a ward of the state.

[BentnoseWillie]

Amtrak is a company owned by the US government. It operates over the rails of private railroads except in the Northeast Corridor (NY to DC), which Amtrak owns.

As noted above, passenger trains do not have any priority under the GCOR - priority is assigned by the dispatching railroad. When UP ran its own passenger trains, then those trains had higher priority. Amtrak's on-time incentives are lower than the value of freight traffic, and since UP dispatchers get bonuses based on their contribution to the bottom line (by moving the higher-value freight trraffic), Amtrak trains get stabbed for freight.

No conspiracy, aside from the railroad officials making their own operations thrive, not the operations of a ward of the state.

[Modelcar]

....I would imagine Amtrak and Railroad Co's have a contract that spells out the do's and don'ts of how the Passenger Trains are to be handled. If that is a fact then I would imagine the dispatching railroad knows the method they signed on to control the movement of Amtrak trains. If this is not being adhered to Congress or whatever controlling body should move in and inforce the fact it must be done as the contract states it will be done. End of discussion. Take action and make it happen....

[Modelcar]

....I would imagine Amtrak and Railroad Co's have a contract that spells out the do's and don'ts of how the Passenger Trains are to be handled. If that is a fact then I would imagine the dispatching railroad knows the method they signed on to control the movement of Amtrak trains. If this is not being adhered to Congress or whatever controlling body should move in and inforce the fact it must be done as the contract states it will be done. End of discussion. Take action and make it happen....

[Mookie]

Congress moved? When did this happen?

Government action against Big Business?

Shirley, sorry - Modelcar you jest! Congress can't get off dead center most of the time and they sure aren't going to mess in the railroad nest. These are some very good people not to tic off. And that is at the top level. Doesn't even address what happens to these big, hardly manageable corporations at about the bottom 1/3 of the ladder.

Cynic Mookie

[Mookie]

Congress moved? When did this happen?

Government action against Big Business?

Shirley, sorry - Modelcar you jest! Congress can't get off dead center most of the time and they sure aren't going to mess in the railroad nest. These are some very good people not to tic off. And that is at the top level. Doesn't even address what happens to these big, hardly manageable corporations at about the bottom 1/3 of the ladder.

Cynic Mookie

[therailnut]

I don't know about anywhere else but here in Galesburg, IL. Everything stops on the BNSF mainline within an hour of amtrak arriving and amtrak departing. The yard control gets in big time trouble if amtrak does not get in and get out of here on time. Amtrak is not to be delayed no matter what. In fact the signals are even cleared probably up to 20 minutes before the arrival of amtrak at the depot here and as soon as it leaves the depot the dispatcher has give it a clear route to where it is going next.

[therailnut]

I don't know about anywhere else but here in Galesburg, IL. Everything stops on the BNSF mainline within an hour of amtrak arriving and amtrak departing. The yard control gets in big time trouble if amtrak does not get in and get out of here on time. Amtrak is not to be delayed no matter what. In fact the signals are even cleared probably up to 20 minutes before the arrival of amtrak at the depot here and as soon as it leaves the depot the dispatcher has give it a clear route to where it is going next.

[Modelcar]

....Jen: "Congress Moved...When did this happen"...It can and just did....How about giving the President permission to go to war...! These "very good people not to tic off"...need to come down where they belong and handle the responsibility that is upon them. I hear you talking about "hardly managable Corp." I'm sure most of the large businesses in this country falls into that catagory but contracts are dealt with every day...It's not rocket science. From what I understand many of the railroads do handle Amtrak as they should or at least make a very good effort to do do every day. UP should step up to the plate and do the same. Honor what they must have agreed to.

[Modelcar]

....Jen: "Congress Moved...When did this happen"...It can and just did....How about giving the President permission to go to war...! These "very good people not to tic off"...need to come down where they belong and handle the responsibility that is upon them. I hear you talking about "hardly managable Corp." I'm sure most of the large businesses in this country falls into that catagory but contracts are dealt with every day...It's not rocket science. From what I understand many of the railroads do handle Amtrak as they should or at least make a very good effort to do do every day. UP should step up to the plate and do the same. Honor what they must have agreed to.

[Mookie]

I agree with you! I am just so disillusioned with govt and how things slide by in big business - Enron for example. We have gone from making people accountable for their actions to "oh well". And when "big business" messes up, they shrug their collective shoulders and start lying! And it is very successful.

Time to head for the hills, but back tomorrow and see if anyone else wants to chime in on this!

Jen

[Mookie]

I agree with you! I am just so disillusioned with govt and how things slide by in big business - Enron for example. We have gone from making people accountable for their actions to "oh well". And when "big business" messes up, they shrug their collective shoulders and start lying! And it is very successful.

Time to head for the hills, but back tomorrow and see if anyone else wants to chime in on this!

Jen

[kenneo]

First - Superiority is not conferred by any Code of Rules. It is conferred by right, class or direction. Class is conferred by timetable, direction by the Rule Book and right is conferred by train order (or track warant). Even in CTC and TWC territories, the above is important to train dispatching. The main import to this thread is the timetable. If AMTK is shown in the employees timetable, it is a superior train subject to any class designations (also timetable) and direction (rule book). If it is not, then it is an extra train and can only operate according to train order (track warant) authority. Any other discussion of superiority exceeds the scope of this thread.

Second. The FRA. These fine upstanding folks bear a large share in the reasons for late AMTK trains. Once upon a time, with the lifetime of us old heads, a train could make up time against its schedule if it became late. This provision was important because a late train causes all opposing trains to become late by twice the amount of time it is late and all following trains by an equal time to it.

(To get a real clear picture of MUDCHICKEN'S snafu, calculate up the delays to each train involved. It will take you about a day or two, and will be HUGE. Then factor the costs of crew time wasted, engine time wasted and car delay time wasted. It can make a person rich.)

In train order and track warant territories where a train has timetable authority, schedule keeping is extremely important. Yet, and so, to show that it was doing its job to keep the American railroading public safe, the FRA made a rule that you could not exceed the posted speed. Period. A provision was made for inaccurate speedometers, but not inaccurate locomotive operation. Soooooooo, once late, always late - no more making up time. The only device a railroad now has to enable a train to make up time is to pad the schedule with extra minutes. Smoke and mirrors.

Third. Incentives. It was mentioned above in the thread that AMTK provides incentives to the freight railroads to operate AMTK on time. It was also mentioned that these incentives were less than the incentive to operate a profit producing freight on time. Once upon a time, a long, long, time ago, within the lifetimes of us old heads, AMTK paid an incentive that exceeded (by a lot) the incentive of operating a freight on time and also, if you made AMTK late, by even one minute, you lost ALL of the incentive you may have earned for that trip and only the penalities applied. Congres, in their CHEAP fasion, forced AMTK to eliminate to old incentives and replace them with the non-incentive incentives in place now.

You may not believe this (and I don't blame you if you don't), but the Coast Starlight acutally brought in more at the fare box than it cost to operate it because on time operation and a real class act by AMTK in providing a fine train. Those were some fine days! The train ran 18 cars in the off season and it was 100% booked 100% of the time.

When there was a lightly padded schedule, excellent incentives and the ability to make up time, yes, Virginia (and you too, Mookie), you really could reliably set your watch by the train. And only God could help you if you were the cause of making the train late.

[kenneo]

First - Superiority is not conferred by any Code of Rules. It is conferred by right, class or direction. Class is conferred by timetable, direction by the Rule Book and right is conferred by train order (or track warant). Even in CTC and TWC territories, the above is important to train dispatching. The main import to this thread is the timetable. If AMTK is shown in the employees timetable, it is a superior train subject to any class designations (also timetable) and direction (rule book). If it is not, then it is an extra train and can only operate according to train order (track warant) authority. Any other discussion of superiority exceeds the scope of this thread.

Second. The FRA. These fine upstanding folks bear a large share in the reasons for late AMTK trains. Once upon a time, with the lifetime of us old heads, a train could make up time against its schedule if it became late. This provision was important because a late train causes all opposing trains to become late by twice the amount of time it is late and all following trains by an equal time to it.

(To get a real clear picture of MUDCHICKEN'S snafu, calculate up the delays to each train involved. It will take you about a day or two, and will be HUGE. Then factor the costs of crew time wasted, engine time wasted and car delay time wasted. It can make a person rich.)

In train order and track warant territories where a train has timetable authority, schedule keeping is extremely important. Yet, and so, to show that it was doing its job to keep the American railroading public safe, the FRA made a rule that you could not exceed the posted speed. Period. A provision was made for inaccurate speedometers, but not inaccurate locomotive operation. Soooooooo, once late, always late - no more making up time. The only device a railroad now has to enable a train to make up time is to pad the schedule with extra minutes. Smoke and mirrors.

Third. Incentives. It was mentioned above in the thread that AMTK provides incentives to the freight railroads to operate AMTK on time. It was also mentioned that these incentives were less than the incentive to operate a profit producing freight on time. Once upon a time, a long, long, time ago, within the lifetimes of us old heads, AMTK paid an incentive that exceeded (by a lot) the incentive of operating a freight on time and also, if you made AMTK late, by even one minute, you lost ALL of the incentive you may have earned for that trip and only the penalities applied. Congres, in their CHEAP fasion, forced AMTK to eliminate to old incentives and replace them with the non-incentive incentives in place now.

You may not believe this (and I don't blame you if you don't), but the Coast Starlight acutally brought in more at the fare box than it cost to operate it because on time operation and a real class act by AMTK in providing a fine train. Those were some fine days! The train ran 18 cars in the off season and it was 100% booked 100% of the time.

When there was a lightly padded schedule, excellent incentives and the ability to make up time, yes, Virginia (and you too, Mookie), you really could reliably set your watch by the train. And only God could help you if you were the cause of making the train late.

[Modelcar]

....So do we know if Amtrak is shown in the employees timetable on the major carriers today...? Anybody privy to that info...?

[Modelcar]

....So do we know if Amtrak is shown in the employees timetable on the major carriers today...? Anybody privy to that info...?