The ALCo diesel locomotive thread

[Kozzie]

Thanks Peter [:)][;)] RS-10 /RS-11 it is. The raised hood was basically due to larger engines??

Thanks drephpe [:)][;)] I ckecked out that web site. First impression is: very strange - but must have served the purpose.

Hmmmm...morphodite...hmmm...something that undergoes a change in shape..I gues..???

Dave

[M636C]

cstaats

The original Alcos were RSD-1s, but had standard RS-1 cabs without the angled sides on the US Army units. In Russia they were known as class Da ("a" for Alco, some Baldwin cab units were Db). I believe a Da is preserved, possibly in St Petersburg.

There were some identical copies class TE-1, which would be fairly rare now, as they were built in the 1940s, but one might be seen. One of these might also be preserved.
(TE stood for "Thermo-Electric", internal combustion with electric transmission)

The most common locomotive now would be the TEM-2 and its variations. this looks quite a lot like an Alco, but is longer than the RSD-1/TE-1 and has heavier cast trucks. It still uses the engine type PD-1 based on the Alco 539. The "M" stood for "manouvre" (switching) and you should be able to see one of these in Moscow or St Petersburg or in major yards on the journey. These units, as are most Russian locomotives are most likely painted dark green with orange warning stripes on the ends.

The Cyrillic letters for TEM are similar, at least the T and M. The "E" looks a bit like a small "3" or reversed , curved "E". The class and numbers usually appear on the cabside and on the locomotive ends. Some Russian locomotives have a complex computer based number, usually as well as the old class.

There are a number of interesting web sites. Some locomotive factories have them. Just try "Russian+Diesel+Locomotives" in your favourite search engine. Most of them are in English or have an English version. Then look for TEM-2 or whatever interests you!

Peter

[M636C]

cstaats

The original Alcos were RSD-1s, but had standard RS-1 cabs without the angled sides on the US Army units. In Russia they were known as class Da ("a" for Alco, some Baldwin cab units were Db). I believe a Da is preserved, possibly in St Petersburg.

There were some identical copies class TE-1, which would be fairly rare now, as they were built in the 1940s, but one might be seen. One of these might also be preserved.
(TE stood for "Thermo-Electric", internal combustion with electric transmission)

The most common locomotive now would be the TEM-2 and its variations. this looks quite a lot like an Alco, but is longer than the RSD-1/TE-1 and has heavier cast trucks. It still uses the engine type PD-1 based on the Alco 539. The "M" stood for "manouvre" (switching) and you should be able to see one of these in Moscow or St Petersburg or in major yards on the journey. These units, as are most Russian locomotives are most likely painted dark green with orange warning stripes on the ends.

The Cyrillic letters for TEM are similar, at least the T and M. The "E" looks a bit like a small "3" or reversed , curved "E". The class and numbers usually appear on the cabside and on the locomotive ends. Some Russian locomotives have a complex computer based number, usually as well as the old class.

There are a number of interesting web sites. Some locomotive factories have them. Just try "Russian+Diesel+Locomotives" in your favourite search engine. Most of them are in English or have an English version. Then look for TEM-2 or whatever interests you!

Peter

[cstaats]

I understand that ALCO sent to Russia diesel locomotives and they have been copied and are still in regular service and still produced in the former Soviet Union. I will be traveling to Russia and will be traveling by rail from Moscow to St Petersburg. I was wondering if I would be able to see any of these Russian ALCOs? Does any body have any links where I may find information on The Russian Railroad?

[cstaats]

I understand that ALCO sent to Russia diesel locomotives and they have been copied and are still in regular service and still produced in the former Soviet Union. I will be traveling to Russia and will be traveling by rail from Moscow to St Petersburg. I was wondering if I would be able to see any of these Russian ALCOs? Does any body have any links where I may find information on The Russian Railroad?

[M636C]

Tariq,

Sorry, I didn't get back to the thread earlier!

Certainly, when they were new, the DL-541s in Australia did run at 115 km/h, and were used on the top passenger trains. They didn't ride well, and more DL-500s were purchased, although this meant using smaller traction motors GE 731, and GE 761 instead of the big GE 752, because the Swing hanger truck on the DL500 was unable to take the big motors.

In general, the track was better maintained then than now, although the rail was only partly welded and only 53 kg/m.

I have been involved with vehicle dynamics, but not with the Alco Trimount truck.

I believe the replacement of the "elephant's feet" by "Metalastik" rubber metal sandwich pads fixed top and bottom is the way to go!

drephpe,

The RS-10 slightly preceded the RS-11 but not by much. That was the point of changeover to higher hoods!The RS-10 may have been only built in Canada, and was really an RS-11 with the 244 engine.

Peter

[M636C]

Tariq,

Sorry, I didn't get back to the thread earlier!

Certainly, when they were new, the DL-541s in Australia did run at 115 km/h, and were used on the top passenger trains. They didn't ride well, and more DL-500s were purchased, although this meant using smaller traction motors GE 731, and GE 761 instead of the big GE 752, because the Swing hanger truck on the DL500 was unable to take the big motors.

In general, the track was better maintained then than now, although the rail was only partly welded and only 53 kg/m.

I have been involved with vehicle dynamics, but not with the Alco Trimount truck.

I believe the replacement of the "elephant's feet" by "Metalastik" rubber metal sandwich pads fixed top and bottom is the way to go!

drephpe,

The RS-10 slightly preceded the RS-11 but not by much. That was the point of changeover to higher hoods!The RS-10 may have been only built in Canada, and was really an RS-11 with the 244 engine.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Dave-

To my limited knowledge, the RS-1,2,3 etc series was lower and with the RS 11 or so the hoods went high. Corrections anyone???? Peter?? Did I miss any?

You might be interested in the morphodite RS3's owned by several roads incl Frisco, Katy, etc, that were RS3's sent back to EMD to be re-engined and that returned with the original short ALCO hood and a recycled GP7/9 long hood. They also did it to BLW AS16's. See, for example,

http://www.katyrailroad.org/images/mktdsl146.jpg

Cheers![8D]

[Anonymous]

Dave-

To my limited knowledge, the RS-1,2,3 etc series was lower and with the RS 11 or so the hoods went high. Corrections anyone???? Peter?? Did I miss any?

You might be interested in the morphodite RS3's owned by several roads incl Frisco, Katy, etc, that were RS3's sent back to EMD to be re-engined and that returned with the original short ALCO hood and a recycled GP7/9 long hood. They also did it to BLW AS16's. See, for example,

http://www.katyrailroad.org/images/mktdsl146.jpg

Cheers![8D]

[Kozzie]

Crew, this question for some will be easy peasy, probably down to who can type the fastest, but something that I have been wondering. [?] (Particularly since I bought two Atlas HO RS3s which run very well I night add...)

With the Alco RS series of switcers, the RS1s, RS2s etc had a hood height that allowed crew to see along the top of the hood as well as along the sides.
At what point did the hood go to full height, and restrict views from the cab to along the sides? [;)][:)]

Thanks crew! [;)][:)] [;)][:)]

Dave

[Kozzie]

Crew, this question for some will be easy peasy, probably down to who can type the fastest, but something that I have been wondering. [?] (Particularly since I bought two Atlas HO RS3s which run very well I night add...)

With the Alco RS series of switcers, the RS1s, RS2s etc had a hood height that allowed crew to see along the top of the hood as well as along the sides.
At what point did the hood go to full height, and restrict views from the cab to along the sides? [;)][:)]

Thanks crew! [;)][:)] [;)][:)]

Dave

[Anonymous]

HI-PETER
Do you have your e-mail adress. Have you worked on these locomotives.

[Anonymous]

HI-PETER
Do you have your e-mail adress. Have you worked on these locomotives.

[athelney]

Just for an update , the guys and myself at the West Coast Railway Assn in Squamish BC Canada have just got Alco S3 Ex CP #6503 back to running order , she has been subject to a 2 year program to get her to start . Now running & moving , albeit on a short run . Now the big job to fix all the things wrong !! Our Ex PGE RS3 #561 was running last weekend on a switching job. Cheers

[athelney]

Just for an update , the guys and myself at the West Coast Railway Assn in Squamish BC Canada have just got Alco S3 Ex CP #6503 back to running order , she has been subject to a 2 year program to get her to start . Now running & moving , albeit on a short run . Now the big job to fix all the things wrong !! Our Ex PGE RS3 #561 was running last weekend on a switching job. Cheers

[Anonymous]

We are having problem of bad ride quality on these locomotives above 100km/hr.can these truck peform satisfactory on speed like 110km/hr. It looks that asking too much from them. At what speed they are being operated in australia, If you have some MIs in electronic formats ,please send me on [e-mail]
our track has been welded. we see some vertical oscillations regularly ,some times less amplitude and some time high amplitude. even we have put new springs on it on high speed

[Anonymous]

We are having problem of bad ride quality on these locomotives above 100km/hr.can these truck peform satisfactory on speed like 110km/hr. It looks that asking too much from them. At what speed they are being operated in australia, If you have some MIs in electronic formats ,please send me on [e-mail]
our track has been welded. we see some vertical oscillations regularly ,some times less amplitude and some time high amplitude. even we have put new springs on it on high speed

[M636C]

Tariq,

I will quote from an Alco publication "ALCO Trimount Type Truck" 3rd Edition Sept 1964.

"The pivot carries about 60% of the vertical load and also receives and transmits tractive and braking forces. Two loading pads, at each end of the locomotive frame, transmit the remaining 40% of the vertical load to the truck frame, and move, in an oil bath on wear plates fitted in channels of a circular section shape. The spring system of this type of truck consists of long deflection helical spring sets, with snubbers applied to one spring of each set. Full equalisation is obtained by suitably positioning the springs and controlling their working height (reaction)."

From this, it appears that ALCO intended that the springs to be "shimmed" to allow equal loads on each axle. This is assisted by the 60% of the load being applied to the truck on the pivot between the closely spaced axles. ALCO call the "elephant's feet" "loading pads" in this document.

Another interesting statement regarding load transfer between axles (certainly related to your question) is as follows:

"An analysis of the manner in which the locomotive weight is received by the truck shows that the effect of the offset pivot and the concentric loading paths is similar tothat of a large diameter ideal pivot, this diameter being twice the distance between the pivot centre and the circular path described by the centre of the loading pads in the channels."

This suggests to me that ALCO do not expect the truck frame to "pitch" significantly, and all movement should be taken up in the primary springs.

ALCO don't give any indication in this publication of the ride index, mentioned in your earlier question but they do say:

"[the design features] give this truck what is probably its most outstanding riding characteristic: a practically absolute absence of lateral motion and "nosing" or "hunting".

I'm not sure what your interest in this truck is (I know it is in extensive use in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh), but I thought I could mention a development of this truck carried out in Australia (where I live!).

A number of DL541 type locomotives were modified by replacing the "elephant's feet" by a "Metalastik" fixed loading pad as used in Montreal export locomotive designs. In the Montreal locomotives, three or four of these pads are used to support the frame on each truck. In the DL-541, the original pivot was retained in conjunction with two Metalastik pads in the former "elephant's foot" location. This was said to greatly improve the ride, both vertical and lateral.

One modified locomotive of this type is currently in service with Silverton Transport in New South Wales, Australia. If you are interested, I could put you intouch with this company. The Montreal bogie (truck) designs are now owned by GE and the Australian GE licensee (United Goninan) is currently rebuilding a number of DL-500G locomotives with this type of suspension. You should be able to find their address on the web, but if not, make another post and I'll try to get the details for you!

(My web name "M636C" was a Montreal design fitted with ALCO Hi-Ad trucks)

I hope this is what you need!

Peter

[M636C]

Tariq,

I will quote from an Alco publication "ALCO Trimount Type Truck" 3rd Edition Sept 1964.

"The pivot carries about 60% of the vertical load and also receives and transmits tractive and braking forces. Two loading pads, at each end of the locomotive frame, transmit the remaining 40% of the vertical load to the truck frame, and move, in an oil bath on wear plates fitted in channels of a circular section shape. The spring system of this type of truck consists of long deflection helical spring sets, with snubbers applied to one spring of each set. Full equalisation is obtained by suitably positioning the springs and controlling their working height (reaction)."

From this, it appears that ALCO intended that the springs to be "shimmed" to allow equal loads on each axle. This is assisted by the 60% of the load being applied to the truck on the pivot between the closely spaced axles. ALCO call the "elephant's feet" "loading pads" in this document.

Another interesting statement regarding load transfer between axles (certainly related to your question) is as follows:

"An analysis of the manner in which the locomotive weight is received by the truck shows that the effect of the offset pivot and the concentric loading paths is similar tothat of a large diameter ideal pivot, this diameter being twice the distance between the pivot centre and the circular path described by the centre of the loading pads in the channels."

This suggests to me that ALCO do not expect the truck frame to "pitch" significantly, and all movement should be taken up in the primary springs.

ALCO don't give any indication in this publication of the ride index, mentioned in your earlier question but they do say:

"[the design features] give this truck what is probably its most outstanding riding characteristic: a practically absolute absence of lateral motion and "nosing" or "hunting".

I'm not sure what your interest in this truck is (I know it is in extensive use in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh), but I thought I could mention a development of this truck carried out in Australia (where I live!).

A number of DL541 type locomotives were modified by replacing the "elephant's feet" by a "Metalastik" fixed loading pad as used in Montreal export locomotive designs. In the Montreal locomotives, three or four of these pads are used to support the frame on each truck. In the DL-541, the original pivot was retained in conjunction with two Metalastik pads in the former "elephant's foot" location. This was said to greatly improve the ride, both vertical and lateral.

One modified locomotive of this type is currently in service with Silverton Transport in New South Wales, Australia. If you are interested, I could put you intouch with this company. The Montreal bogie (truck) designs are now owned by GE and the Australian GE licensee (United Goninan) is currently rebuilding a number of DL-500G locomotives with this type of suspension. You should be able to find their address on the web, but if not, make another post and I'll try to get the details for you!

(My web name "M636C" was a Montreal design fitted with ALCO Hi-Ad trucks)

I hope this is what you need!

Peter

[Anonymous]

we live in sub continent. can you explain the elephant foot mounting regarding alco

How this work? Is there any criteria orginally alco used for weight distribution between the axles.

[Anonymous]

we live in sub continent. can you explain the elephant foot mounting regarding alco

How this work? Is there any criteria orginally alco used for weight distribution between the axles.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Some DL535's were built with low short hoods although I've noticed that most export and licensee designs have high short hoods. Hood units of both domestic and export design tend to lead with the short hood. Long hood forward set-up may be the norm in India, though.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Some DL535's were built with low short hoods although I've noticed that most export and licensee designs have high short hoods. Hood units of both domestic and export design tend to lead with the short hood. Long hood forward set-up may be the norm in India, though.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Some DL535's were built with low short hoods although I've noticed that most export and licensee designs have high short hoods. Hood units of both domestic and export design tend to lead with the short hood. Long hood forward set-up may be the norm in India, though.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Some DL535's were built with low short hoods although I've noticed that most export and licensee designs have high short hoods. Hood units of both domestic and export design tend to lead with the short hood. Long hood forward set-up may be the norm in India, though.

[Anonymous]

any body can tell what was the ride index of rsd20 rsd34 rsd29. Did ever alco built loco with short nose instead of long nose

[Anonymous]

any body can tell what was the ride index of rsd20 rsd34 rsd29. Did ever alco built loco with short nose instead of long nose

[M636C]

Guys,

The integral fuel tanks are part of normal welded frames. The bottom plate of the frame curves smoothly down to the depth of the bottom of the fuel tank and back up to the normal frame depth. This can best be seen by comparing cross section drawings, often shown in operator's manuals. In the "1970 Car and Loco Cyclopedia", the C425 cutaway drawing is shown on page 885 and the C430 is shown on page 887. This provides a good direct comparison of conventional frames and the integral frames on generally similar units.

Drawings of the C-855 show the same shape of frame but it may have been used to increase the stiffness of such a big frame with twin engines.

I thought of this because yesterday I checked out a newly rebuilt GE, a double end boxcab unit using the integral frame of a DL 500G. In this unit, the tank had been enlarged by adding pannier tanks on the side, following the curve of the frame.

Peter

[M636C]

Guys,

The integral fuel tanks are part of normal welded frames. The bottom plate of the frame curves smoothly down to the depth of the bottom of the fuel tank and back up to the normal frame depth. This can best be seen by comparing cross section drawings, often shown in operator's manuals. In the "1970 Car and Loco Cyclopedia", the C425 cutaway drawing is shown on page 885 and the C430 is shown on page 887. This provides a good direct comparison of conventional frames and the integral frames on generally similar units.

Drawings of the C-855 show the same shape of frame but it may have been used to increase the stiffness of such a big frame with twin engines.

I thought of this because yesterday I checked out a newly rebuilt GE, a double end boxcab unit using the integral frame of a DL 500G. In this unit, the tank had been enlarged by adding pannier tanks on the side, following the curve of the frame.

Peter

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railpac

Jim, your exactly right, crankshaft problems plagued the 244. However, (unfortunately) the 251 had some problems too, the majority of them just oil leaks in different areas, nothing that can't be endured. Just give 'em a little TLC and they'll just keep on working for you. [:D][;)]

Yes and the 241 also had some of the same problems. The 251 received much greater care and testing before being placed into service thus ensuring far fewer problems. Alco was excellent for having knowledgeable people in the field to assist the railroads with any problems they might have. Alco believed in trying its best to keep them runing after they left the factory.