Penn Station - Atlantic City train planned

[oltmannd]

Looks like there are about 4 houses sitting on the original connection aligment. The old alignment is visible from the Google Local maps.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gardendance

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
You'd have to relay the NE leg of the connection at Delair. The alignment is still intact - the Nellie Bly used to use it.

If NJT had done commuter rail on the C&A, they could have done all sorts of interesting things. It would have integrated the commuter rail network in North Jersey with the AC line.

NJT doesn't have any diesels that operate under the Hudson. Are you asking why they don't run more of the diesels trains into Penn by swapping engines? NJT currently has all it's "slots" in the Hudson river tunnel filled up. They can't run any more trains in rush hour - only figure ways to increase seating on trains.

I'm a daily commuter thru Delair. I haven't noticed any evidence of a NE alignment, I'll try to pay more attention next time I go by, but it sure looks like there are houses in the way.

I still feel any advantage you get would get from not having to double cross the Delaware River, including avoiding the one drawbridge, is offset by the extensive single tracking and the lower speed limits on the New Jersey side south of Trenton.

Thanks for reminding me that the Hudson River tunnels are already full. But in this example, gamblers trains could possibly be marketable at times of the day that are off peak to normal people. I notice there's another thread
Amtrak FL9 locomotives to operate NJT Atlantic City Service?

The alignment is there, but hard to discern from the train. I found both a picture of the Nellie Bly and a PRSL map and went to investigate. It was all still there, but overgown with vegetation. That was about 12 years ago or so. I'm going to try a Google Local map and see if the alignment is still visible.

Not having to stop and change ends, complete with brake test (5 min), plus not having to do the extra 3 miles across the bridge at 30 mph (6 min) would offset the slower running on the east side of the river. Assuming 25 miles at 50 mph = 30 minutes versus 25 miles at 80 mph = 19 minutes - you'd still come out faster running on the east shore of the Delaware.

[gardendance]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
You'd have to relay the NE leg of the connection at Delair. The alignment is still intact - the Nellie Bly used to use it.

If NJT had done commuter rail on the C&A, they could have done all sorts of interesting things. It would have integrated the commuter rail network in North Jersey with the AC line.

NJT doesn't have any diesels that operate under the Hudson. Are you asking why they don't run more of the diesels trains into Penn by swapping engines? NJT currently has all it's "slots" in the Hudson river tunnel filled up. They can't run any more trains in rush hour - only figure ways to increase seating on trains.

I'm a daily commuter thru Delair. I haven't noticed any evidence of a NE alignment, I'll try to pay more attention next time I go by, but it sure looks like there are houses in the way.

I still feel any advantage you get would get from not having to double cross the Delaware River, including avoiding the one drawbridge, is offset by the extensive single tracking and the lower speed limits on the New Jersey side south of Trenton.

Thanks for reminding me that the Hudson River tunnels are already full. But in this example, gamblers trains could possibly be marketable at times of the day that are off peak to normal people. I notice there's another thread
Amtrak FL9 locomotives to operate NJT Atlantic City Service?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by motor

QUOTE: Originally posted by Harry_Runyon

QUOTE: Originally posted by gardendance

not only is the Garden State Parkway routing not the way I understand NJT plans to run, there is no railroad there. It would indeed be wonderful news if true, since it would mean we'd get a new railroad, not just restored service on existing tracks.

Unless of course the news station was mis-informed and was alluding to the former Jersey Central "Blue Comet" route. But to restore that line would take a massive infusion of cash, and the state of New Jersey is not about to do that.

From where to where did the Blue Comet run? That's a train I never heard of. I don' t have time to Google or Yahoo right now.

motor

The Blue Comet was a Central Railroad of New Jersey train that ran between Jersey City NJ and Atlantic City. It ran from I believe 1929 to 1941.

[motor]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Harry_Runyon

QUOTE: Originally posted by gardendance

not only is the Garden State Parkway routing not the way I understand NJT plans to run, there is no railroad there. It would indeed be wonderful news if true, since it would mean we'd get a new railroad, not just restored service on existing tracks.

Unless of course the news station was mis-informed and was alluding to the former Jersey Central "Blue Comet" route. But to restore that line would take a massive infusion of cash, and the state of New Jersey is not about to do that.

From where to where did the Blue Comet run? That's a train I never heard of. I don' t have time to Google or Yahoo right now.

motor

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gardendance

not only is the Garden State Parkway routing not the way I understand NJT plans to run, there is no railroad there. It would indeed be wonderful news if true, since it would mean we'd get a new railroad, not just restored service on existing tracks.

Unless of course the news station was mis-informed and was alluding to the former Jersey Central "Blue Comet" route. But to restore that line would take a massive infusion of cash, and the state of New Jersey is not about to do that.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gardendance

oltmannd mentioned
"Coulda used old C&A on the other side of the river if NJT had done commuter rail instead of light rail"

I'm not sure there's enough advantage to using the Camden and Amboy. The connection between the Atlantic City line, which is the approach to the Delaire drawbridge over the Delaware River, to the to the Camden and Amboy is an east or west to south wye, with single track to continue north to Trenton. The connection between the Atlantic City line and the Northeast Corridor is also a wye, but you get 4 very fast tracks going onto the Northeast Corridor. So as the track arrangement stands now there's no way to avoid changing ends whether at Frankford Junction to the Northeast Corridor, or at Delaire to the Camden and Amboy.
Also there's no law that says one must change power when one gets onto the Northeast Corridor. When Amtrak ran its New York to Atlantic City service they ran electric out of New York and changed to a diesel locomotive in Philadelphia, initally at Frankford Junction, with no passenger stop in Philly, then subsequently at 30th St, which meant a longer running time, but allowed them to handle Philadelphia passengers, and gave them a bit more flexibility in marshalling locomotives. Of course there's also no law that says a competent railroad couldn't have properly handled locomotive changes at Frankford Junction, it just turned out that Amtrak wasn't very succesfull in this case.
I hope I'm not getting too far off topic, but why does NJ transit have so many diesel trains that go through or across the electrified Northeast Corridor without changing power and continuing under the Hudson River to New York? Why don't they have a place near Manhatten in the New Jersey meadows where they can transfer from diesel to electric locomotives? Surely some sort of Manhatten Transfer could work for at least some of their customers who would rather not change trains at Newark or Hoboken?

You'd have to relay the NE leg of the connection at Delair. The alignment is still intact - the Nellie Bly used to use it.

If NJT had done commuter rail on the C&A, they could have done all sorts of interesting things. It would have integrated the commuter rail network in North Jersey with the AC line.

NJT doesn't have any diesels that operate under the Hudson. Are you asking why they don't run more of the diesels trains into Penn by swapping engines? NJT currently has all it's "slots" in the Hudson river tunnel filled up. They can't run any more trains in rush hour - only figure ways to increase seating on trains.

[gardendance]

not only is the Garden State Parkway routing not the way I understand NJT plans to run, there is no railroad there. It would indeed be wonderful news if true, since it would mean we'd get a new railroad, not just restored service on existing tracks.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Leon Silverman

Hate to burst everyone's bubble, but the latest newscast I saw showed a map of the train route roughly following the the Garden State Parkway (along the eastern coast of NJ, meaning that there will be no connection through either Philadelphia or Trenton.

Atlantic Countyr Resident.

Thats wonderful Mr. Silverman, but that is not the way NJT intends to route this train.

Personally, I'd change your news station.......

[Leon Silverman]

Hate to burst everyone's bubble, but the latest newscast I saw showed a map of the train route roughly following the the Garden State Parkway (along the eastern coast of NJ, meaning that there will be no connection through either Philadelphia or Trenton.

Atlantic Countyr Resident.

[gardendance]

oh, Amtrak also used to have Atlantic City to Richmond service which ran diesel all the way. I rode it at least once Philly to Baltimore.
Quite often I get to treat 30th St as if it was a trolley or subway stop, that is I just go to the station and grab the next train.
I forget which year, but there were snow delays, and the Atlantic City to Richmond diesel just happened to be the available train for me.

[gardendance]

oltmannd mentioned
"Coulda used old C&A on the other side of the river if NJT had done commuter rail instead of light rail"

I'm not sure there's enough advantage to using the Camden and Amboy. The connection between the Atlantic City line, which is the approach to the Delaire drawbridge over the Delaware River, to the to the Camden and Amboy is an east or west to south wye, with single track to continue north to Trenton. The connection between the Atlantic City line and the Northeast Corridor is also a wye, but you get 4 very fast tracks going onto the Northeast Corridor. So as the track arrangement stands now there's no way to avoid changing ends whether at Frankford Junction to the Northeast Corridor, or at Delaire to the Camden and Amboy.
Also there's no law that says one must change power when one gets onto the Northeast Corridor. When Amtrak ran its New York to Atlantic City service they ran electric out of New York and changed to a diesel locomotive in Philadelphia, initally at Frankford Junction, with no passenger stop in Philly, then subsequently at 30th St, which meant a longer running time, but allowed them to handle Philadelphia passengers, and gave them a bit more flexibility in marshalling locomotives. Of course there's also no law that says a competent railroad couldn't have properly handled locomotive changes at Frankford Junction, it just turned out that Amtrak wasn't very succesfull in this case.
I hope I'm not getting too far off topic, but why does NJ transit have so many diesel trains that go through or across the electrified Northeast Corridor without changing power and continuing under the Hudson River to New York? Why don't they have a place near Manhatten in the New Jersey meadows where they can transfer from diesel to electric locomotives? Surely some sort of Manhatten Transfer could work for at least some of their customers who would rather not change trains at Newark or Hoboken?

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

Stumbled across this article about cheaper Philly-NYC train service. Mentioned casinos.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/14741641.htm

Apparently, the casinos and Casino Reinvestment Development Authority will fund the equipment and subsidize the operation. Very interesting. Thanks for the link!

1. Bring in more victims...I mean gamblers.
2. Get a tax writeoff.
3. Get good PR for the casinos funding public transportation.

And the couple million it will cost them can be made up in a few hours at the tables.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

Stumbled across this article about cheaper Philly-NYC train service. Mentioned casinos.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/14741641.htm

Apparently, the casinos and Casino Reinvestment Development Authority will fund the equipment and subsidize the operation. Very interesting. Thanks for the link!

[Anonymous]

Stumbled across this article about cheaper Philly-NYC train service. Mentioned casinos.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/14741641.htm

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tharmeni

Probably a stupid question, but does NJ transit operate outside the state of NJ?

They do connect with Amtrak and SEPTA at 30th Street Station in Philly. I'd have to check their timetable to see if there's other out-of-state connections.

[kevikens]

Yes, they run into New York State, Port Jervis and into Pennsylvania, Philly's 30th St Station.

[GP-9_Man11786]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tharmeni

Probably a stupid question, but does NJ transit operate outside the state of NJ?

Aside from running AC line trains into Philly, NJT also serves New York's Penn Station and jointly operates the Port Jervice and Passiac Valley Lines with Metro-North.

[kevikens]

Yes, they run into New York State, Port Jervis and into Pennsylvania, Philly's 30th St Station.

[TomDiehl]

One error of note in the article:

"Casino-goers traveling by train from New York must now ride down the Northeast Corridor line to Trenton, hop on a SEPTA train or Amtrak to Philadelphia and then transfer to the Atlantic City rail line at the 30th Street Station."

If you're talking about Amtrak service and travelling from Penn Station in NYC to 30th Street Station in Philly, there's no need to change trains in Trenton. Almost all the NEC service, including the Acela will connect between these points.

Maybe a NJ Transit/Septa service would require that change of trains.

[Tharmeni]

Probably a stupid question, but does NJ transit operate outside the state of NJ?

[oltmannd]

Gonna need a connection at Frankfort Jct for a progressive move.

Coulda used old C&A on the other side of the river if NJT had done commuter rail instead of light rail.

Gonna need some fancier accomodations if they're going to go "upscale". At the very least, they'll need to put in some 2&2 reclining seating in some Comets.

Hope they'd at least stop at Cherry Hill (for direct commuting to NYC) and Lindenwold for connections to AC line "locals" and PATCO.

[Tharmeni]

See:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060619/ap_on_bi_ge/atlantic_city_train_2