Signals, interlockings, etc

[wabash1]

Ed

You can beat the getting by the signal fra bull. The rule says that if you had a clear then come up on a restricting then all you need to do is stop no emergency applacation is needed. if you get by it you get by it. then need permission to proceed by the person in controll of that signal. the only exception to that rule is if the signal is a distant and you are going less than 25mph then you approach next signal prepared to stop. regardless of last indication. then comes the delayed in block rule proced to next signal prepared to stop.

[wabash1]

Ed

You can beat the getting by the signal fra bull. The rule says that if you had a clear then come up on a restricting then all you need to do is stop no emergency applacation is needed. if you get by it you get by it. then need permission to proceed by the person in controll of that signal. the only exception to that rule is if the signal is a distant and you are going less than 25mph then you approach next signal prepared to stop. regardless of last indication. then comes the delayed in block rule proced to next signal prepared to stop.

[kenneo]

Edblysard:

Yup, shure thing.

I would still prefer cabeese occupied with a human. I agree with your operational objections and also, they are not particularly safe, but they permit active rear end protection, and on locals, permit reverse movements without doing it blind.

As to your favorite test, if the signal does not come into view with sufficient time to permit stopping prior to passing the signal, they can't fault you for going by. But they do have to comply with the rules that apply in such situations, which assume that something is wrong with the track or signal system, and usually require that the track be walked and inspected by the train crew to the next signal before the train can be moved. The train also will need to be inspected on both sides to make sure all wheels are on the track (yes, in emergency stops, single wheels can and do derail). What they are supposed to do, is shunt the track circuit so that the train will not have a Green then Red. Way too easy to derail modern size trains that way. "Rail Man makem beeg heep in middle of track".

I'm sure that you know of the FRA's slavish obsession with speed limits. In prior times, you could come down a hill faster than posted and let the train shove you up the next. Reduced the need for extra power, and such. Until the NS got a varience to permit this practice - at specific locations and specific speed limits - a lot of extra units were put on trains and a lot of extra fuel was burned so that the train could drag itself over a hill and lots of brake shoe "rubber" smoked off going down. Now, at these specific locations, you can let her roll down and up out of the swales.

[kenneo]

Edblysard:

Yup, shure thing.

I would still prefer cabeese occupied with a human. I agree with your operational objections and also, they are not particularly safe, but they permit active rear end protection, and on locals, permit reverse movements without doing it blind.

As to your favorite test, if the signal does not come into view with sufficient time to permit stopping prior to passing the signal, they can't fault you for going by. But they do have to comply with the rules that apply in such situations, which assume that something is wrong with the track or signal system, and usually require that the track be walked and inspected by the train crew to the next signal before the train can be moved. The train also will need to be inspected on both sides to make sure all wheels are on the track (yes, in emergency stops, single wheels can and do derail). What they are supposed to do, is shunt the track circuit so that the train will not have a Green then Red. Way too easy to derail modern size trains that way. "Rail Man makem beeg heep in middle of track".

I'm sure that you know of the FRA's slavish obsession with speed limits. In prior times, you could come down a hill faster than posted and let the train shove you up the next. Reduced the need for extra power, and such. Until the NS got a varience to permit this practice - at specific locations and specific speed limits - a lot of extra units were put on trains and a lot of extra fuel was burned so that the train could drag itself over a hill and lots of brake shoe "rubber" smoked off going down. Now, at these specific locations, you can let her roll down and up out of the swales.

[kenneo]

Targubright: At one time both the rule book and the timetalbe had to be "on your body", but that was changed about 15 or 20 years ago due tot he physical size of the normal rule book. It was changed to read "Immediately available", which was interpreted to mean "in your grip".

About the FRA inspections - absolutely. Usually it is restriched to locomotive and/or car echanical inspection. However, if an FRA inspector -- either on or off duty -- sees you make a boo-boo, it's all over.

I can't feature a dispatcher doing what you relate, but then I've seen dispatchers do things I couldn't feature. I can't speak for CSXT or NS, but on the "good-old Friendly" SP, you would bring the train to a stop, and if at a power switch, inspect the switch from the ground to verify allignment and securement of the points, and then proceed under the provisions of Rule 667, 668 or 670 depending on the location and conditions. I can't remember the Consolidated Code Rule numbers. As you would expect, each rule addresses a specific situation, but each permits a train to proceed under dispatchers authority past an A Block at Restricted Speed.

The dispatcher is the one responsible to protect the train since he has authorized them past a absolute signal displaying stop. On the other hand, if your trian has stopped in a block and can not proceed, a certain responsibility returns to you for aiding in your own protection. With a caboose, the rear man would go back and protect, usually leaving a set of guns and perhaps a fusee, and then return to his caboose. Maybe this is one of the reasons for the rise in rear-enders what this dispatcher did, as you relate. Passing a red at track speed would not permit a train to stop short of a train stopped ahead.

They do not keep a log. All conversations are recorded except those in the cab between train crew members. Telephone, dispatcher shack, radio and so on. Best thing the railroads did for safety promotion in some time.

[kenneo]

Targubright: At one time both the rule book and the timetalbe had to be "on your body", but that was changed about 15 or 20 years ago due tot he physical size of the normal rule book. It was changed to read "Immediately available", which was interpreted to mean "in your grip".

About the FRA inspections - absolutely. Usually it is restriched to locomotive and/or car echanical inspection. However, if an FRA inspector -- either on or off duty -- sees you make a boo-boo, it's all over.

I can't feature a dispatcher doing what you relate, but then I've seen dispatchers do things I couldn't feature. I can't speak for CSXT or NS, but on the "good-old Friendly" SP, you would bring the train to a stop, and if at a power switch, inspect the switch from the ground to verify allignment and securement of the points, and then proceed under the provisions of Rule 667, 668 or 670 depending on the location and conditions. I can't remember the Consolidated Code Rule numbers. As you would expect, each rule addresses a specific situation, but each permits a train to proceed under dispatchers authority past an A Block at Restricted Speed.

The dispatcher is the one responsible to protect the train since he has authorized them past a absolute signal displaying stop. On the other hand, if your trian has stopped in a block and can not proceed, a certain responsibility returns to you for aiding in your own protection. With a caboose, the rear man would go back and protect, usually leaving a set of guns and perhaps a fusee, and then return to his caboose. Maybe this is one of the reasons for the rise in rear-enders what this dispatcher did, as you relate. Passing a red at track speed would not permit a train to stop short of a train stopped ahead.

They do not keep a log. All conversations are recorded except those in the cab between train crew members. Telephone, dispatcher shack, radio and so on. Best thing the railroads did for safety promotion in some time.

[edblysard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TARGUBRIGHT

You are required to have a rule book on person at all times? Does the FRA really do spot inspections? I heard over the radio were a train crew was getting a conflicting signal, (I guess thats what you call it) Radioed dispatch of the problem. Dispatch than responded "You have permission to pass red signal's at Wheeling under posted speed". Can dispatch overide any signals being displayed? How do the crews protect themselves? Do they keep a log?

[:0]Yup, Tim, they do. And yes, if you can't put your hand on your rule book, your fired. It must be accesable at all times you are on duty, no exceptions. Every member of a crew must have that, and a copy of the hazmat rules and emergency response guidebook on hand, always.
The guidbook uses the placard information to tell first responders, usually you, the train crew, what to do if a hazardous material leak/spill happens, and how to identify exactly what is in the car. It explains everything, down to evacuation measures, first aid, and wether to put water, foam or other substances on a burning hazmat car, or to leave it alone, and let it burn itself out. My copy is the current one, dated year 2000, and has 384 pages. It was developed by the US DOT, and truck drivers certified to carry hazardous cargo must also have a copy on hand at all times.
The FRA also does audits, they send inspectors and field personel out to a railroad to check and insure their rules are being followed. They do fine you, and have the power to remove you from service, even over the objections of the railroad, if they feel you are not doing your job safely.
Regardless of bobby pines opinion, the FRA and the carriers are not good buddies, many a railroad has paid very stiff fines, and had their operations changed drasticly, due to the FRA.
If, in the opinion of the field personel, one is needed, they can assign a inspector full time to your road, and he makes life rough for the carrier.
To show you how much this impacts operations, we almost ended up with cabooses again on the PTRA, because, even though all of our track is FRA exempt, and is yard trackage, we share a 130 yard piece of mainline track with UP, over the swing bridge at Buffaloe Bayou. The FRA decided that, because we enter a CTC controled main line, we needed either a rear end device, or a caboose to afford rear end protection. Now this bridge is completly within a signal block, and we have to contact the UP dispatcher, in Spring, before we can use it. No way a train can sneak up on our rear, the dispatcher gives us the signal, and holds all other traffic till we clear, and are back on our tracks. But the FRA saw things differently that us, and said either cabooses or freds. Now, I know you fans would love to see cabooses again, but trust me, they are a pain in the rear, (pun intended) when your major work consists of switching industries. Not only do you have to find someplace to stash it out of the way, while you work, but you have to find a way to get it on the rear again, for the return trip. Dosnt sound like a lot of work, but when you have to do it, well, its not fun. Then you have to find somewhere in the yard to store them, and it adds time onto the job to get it out of storage, and on the rear of the train. Just not worth the trouble, so we have Flashing Rear End Devices, just to travel 130 yards across a bridge.
As for your signal question, yes, its the dispatcher's railroad, and he/she can flag you through a red signal, although you have to come to a complete stop before you proceed through.
And one of theFRAs favorite tests is to take a signal maintainer, and have him hot wire a signal to show red, when it should be green. They then hide, and watch and listen, to see what the crew will do. If you blow by it, your fired, right then. We had a crew pulled out last month that way, pretty sorry way to test, because the last signal they passed was also green, indicating to them that the next signal should be either green/ proceed, or yellow/ advance restricted, but not red.
So, to answer your question, yes, the FRA does have a lot of power over us, and isnt shy about using it.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TARGUBRIGHT

You are required to have a rule book on person at all times? Does the FRA really do spot inspections? I heard over the radio were a train crew was getting a conflicting signal, (I guess thats what you call it) Radioed dispatch of the problem. Dispatch than responded "You have permission to pass red signal's at Wheeling under posted speed". Can dispatch overide any signals being displayed? How do the crews protect themselves? Do they keep a log?

[:0]Yup, Tim, they do. And yes, if you can't put your hand on your rule book, your fired. It must be accesable at all times you are on duty, no exceptions. Every member of a crew must have that, and a copy of the hazmat rules and emergency response guidebook on hand, always.
The guidbook uses the placard information to tell first responders, usually you, the train crew, what to do if a hazardous material leak/spill happens, and how to identify exactly what is in the car. It explains everything, down to evacuation measures, first aid, and wether to put water, foam or other substances on a burning hazmat car, or to leave it alone, and let it burn itself out. My copy is the current one, dated year 2000, and has 384 pages. It was developed by the US DOT, and truck drivers certified to carry hazardous cargo must also have a copy on hand at all times.
The FRA also does audits, they send inspectors and field personel out to a railroad to check and insure their rules are being followed. They do fine you, and have the power to remove you from service, even over the objections of the railroad, if they feel you are not doing your job safely.
Regardless of bobby pines opinion, the FRA and the carriers are not good buddies, many a railroad has paid very stiff fines, and had their operations changed drasticly, due to the FRA.
If, in the opinion of the field personel, one is needed, they can assign a inspector full time to your road, and he makes life rough for the carrier.
To show you how much this impacts operations, we almost ended up with cabooses again on the PTRA, because, even though all of our track is FRA exempt, and is yard trackage, we share a 130 yard piece of mainline track with UP, over the swing bridge at Buffaloe Bayou. The FRA decided that, because we enter a CTC controled main line, we needed either a rear end device, or a caboose to afford rear end protection. Now this bridge is completly within a signal block, and we have to contact the UP dispatcher, in Spring, before we can use it. No way a train can sneak up on our rear, the dispatcher gives us the signal, and holds all other traffic till we clear, and are back on our tracks. But the FRA saw things differently that us, and said either cabooses or freds. Now, I know you fans would love to see cabooses again, but trust me, they are a pain in the rear, (pun intended) when your major work consists of switching industries. Not only do you have to find someplace to stash it out of the way, while you work, but you have to find a way to get it on the rear again, for the return trip. Dosnt sound like a lot of work, but when you have to do it, well, its not fun. Then you have to find somewhere in the yard to store them, and it adds time onto the job to get it out of storage, and on the rear of the train. Just not worth the trouble, so we have Flashing Rear End Devices, just to travel 130 yards across a bridge.
As for your signal question, yes, its the dispatcher's railroad, and he/she can flag you through a red signal, although you have to come to a complete stop before you proceed through.
And one of theFRAs favorite tests is to take a signal maintainer, and have him hot wire a signal to show red, when it should be green. They then hide, and watch and listen, to see what the crew will do. If you blow by it, your fired, right then. We had a crew pulled out last month that way, pretty sorry way to test, because the last signal they passed was also green, indicating to them that the next signal should be either green/ proceed, or yellow/ advance restricted, but not red.
So, to answer your question, yes, the FRA does have a lot of power over us, and isnt shy about using it.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I've seen yellow signs with a red stripe on the Wisconsin Central; the equivalent on the UP is a square-shaped sign divided into four "45-45-90" triangles; the upper and lower two are yellow and the two on the sides are red. It means - under GCOR rules - that, once the engineer has reached a point two miles beyond said signs ("flags" in the rulebook), he is to proceed at restricted speed prepared to stop for workers, equipment on the track, or a red flag. (S)he can resume speed one the rear of the train passes the green flag.

Just a plain old yellow flag with no red (stripe, triangles or otherwise) means that two miles ahead, speed is restricted due to track conditions, but the engineer doesn't necessarily have to prepare to stop for workers and equipment.

Under NORAC rules, it's handled a bit differently - I think work areas are called "Restricted Areas" or something to that effect. At the beginning of the area (as opposed to a certain distance in advance, as under GCOR) there's a diamond-shaped sign with a red "S" (for "speed limit", I think) and the engineer can't exceed 30 MPH. Once again, the train can resume speed once its rear has passed the correct sign - in this case, a sign with a green "R" (for "resume speed.")

[Anonymous]

I've seen yellow signs with a red stripe on the Wisconsin Central; the equivalent on the UP is a square-shaped sign divided into four "45-45-90" triangles; the upper and lower two are yellow and the two on the sides are red. It means - under GCOR rules - that, once the engineer has reached a point two miles beyond said signs ("flags" in the rulebook), he is to proceed at restricted speed prepared to stop for workers, equipment on the track, or a red flag. (S)he can resume speed one the rear of the train passes the green flag.

Just a plain old yellow flag with no red (stripe, triangles or otherwise) means that two miles ahead, speed is restricted due to track conditions, but the engineer doesn't necessarily have to prepare to stop for workers and equipment.

Under NORAC rules, it's handled a bit differently - I think work areas are called "Restricted Areas" or something to that effect. At the beginning of the area (as opposed to a certain distance in advance, as under GCOR) there's a diamond-shaped sign with a red "S" (for "speed limit", I think) and the engineer can't exceed 30 MPH. Once again, the train can resume speed once its rear has passed the correct sign - in this case, a sign with a green "R" (for "resume speed.")

[JoeKoh]

i have also seen yellow signs with an orange stripe to show railwork areas.
stay safe
joe

[JoeKoh]

i have also seen yellow signs with an orange stripe to show railwork areas.
stay safe
joe

[BR60103]

Targubright:
The dispatcher should only give permission to pass signals if he has a good reason to believe that it's OK. If a signal has been giving false indications, the dispatcher will issue an order to pass it, but usually at limited or restricted speed because there might be a broken rail or obstruction ahead.
If there is a crew working on the track, they put out a red flag at the site (and a few yellow ones before it) and the engineer, acting on the train orders of the day, will radio the construction foreman for orders. After the foreman has cleared his equipment from the track, he will give a reply "OK to pass my red flag at XX speed."

[BR60103]

Targubright:
The dispatcher should only give permission to pass signals if he has a good reason to believe that it's OK. If a signal has been giving false indications, the dispatcher will issue an order to pass it, but usually at limited or restricted speed because there might be a broken rail or obstruction ahead.
If there is a crew working on the track, they put out a red flag at the site (and a few yellow ones before it) and the engineer, acting on the train orders of the day, will radio the construction foreman for orders. After the foreman has cleared his equipment from the track, he will give a reply "OK to pass my red flag at XX speed."

[Anonymous]

You are required to have a rule book on person at all times? Does the FRA really do spot inspections? I heard over the radio were a train crew was getting a conflicting signal, (I guess thats what you call it) Radioed dispatch of the problem. Dispatch than responded "You have permission to pass red signal's at Wheeling under posted speed". Can dispatch overide any signals being displayed? How do the crews protect themselves? Do they keep a log?

[Anonymous]

You are required to have a rule book on person at all times? Does the FRA really do spot inspections? I heard over the radio were a train crew was getting a conflicting signal, (I guess thats what you call it) Radioed dispatch of the problem. Dispatch than responded "You have permission to pass red signal's at Wheeling under posted speed". Can dispatch overide any signals being displayed? How do the crews protect themselves? Do they keep a log?

[kenneo]

You carry the cheater card around with you in your pocket. It's called the Rule Book, which you are required to have within easy reach at all times. Let the FRA do a spot inspection of your train and watch their reaction when you say "Rule Book? What's that?" Then everybody else will be able to watch your reaction as you are fired on the spot. Not even the union will back you up.

[kenneo]

You carry the cheater card around with you in your pocket. It's called the Rule Book, which you are required to have within easy reach at all times. Let the FRA do a spot inspection of your train and watch their reaction when you say "Rule Book? What's that?" Then everybody else will be able to watch your reaction as you are fired on the spot. Not even the union will back you up.

[Anonymous]

Well, Microsoft has no problem issuing a cheater card with TrainSim, so I don't see why your average, everyday, run-of-the-mill Class 1 road couldn't spare a few extra pennies per crew... *ahem*

[Anonymous]

Well, Microsoft has no problem issuing a cheater card with TrainSim, so I don't see why your average, everyday, run-of-the-mill Class 1 road couldn't spare a few extra pennies per crew... *ahem*

[wabash1]

yes you are tested every year . and if you know your territory you dont need cheater cards.

[wabash1]

yes you are tested every year . and if you know your territory you dont need cheater cards.

[Anonymous]

All this sounds like alot to remember. Do the railroads give you cheater cards to refer to? Do they test you on this stuff? If so how often?

[Anonymous]

All this sounds like alot to remember. Do the railroads give you cheater cards to refer to? Do they test you on this stuff? If so how often?

[BR60103]

While the meaning varies from railroad to railway, a flashing light is a way to increase the number of colours in a signal from 3 (red, yellow, green) to six (solid+flashing). Extra heads on the same signal post add extra conditions.
Canadian Rule 414 (limited to slow) is red over flashing green over flashing yellow and means "Proceed, limited speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at slow speed".
Rule 419 (medium to slow) is red over green over flashing yellow and means "Proceed, medium speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at slow speed".
6 aspects on each of 3 heads gives 216 possible signal indications. I don't think all of them are used.

[BR60103]

While the meaning varies from railroad to railway, a flashing light is a way to increase the number of colours in a signal from 3 (red, yellow, green) to six (solid+flashing). Extra heads on the same signal post add extra conditions.
Canadian Rule 414 (limited to slow) is red over flashing green over flashing yellow and means "Proceed, limited speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at slow speed".
Rule 419 (medium to slow) is red over green over flashing yellow and means "Proceed, medium speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at slow speed".
6 aspects on each of 3 heads gives 216 possible signal indications. I don't think all of them are used.

[Anonymous]

Hey cabforward Flashing green means:

CP: you have the right of way

CN: you may turn any dirrection with your train (unless a sign clearly states NO LEFT TURNS)

BNSF: combination fo the 2!!

HAAHAHAHHA!

[Anonymous]

Hey cabforward Flashing green means:

CP: you have the right of way

CN: you may turn any dirrection with your train (unless a sign clearly states NO LEFT TURNS)

BNSF: combination fo the 2!!

HAAHAHAHHA!

[kenneo]

You guys are doing great, here!!! We have really got something going!

The simple answer to Q2 is Single Track Main Line with Two Diverging Routs. Starting at the top, Main, 1st Diverging Rout, Second Diverging Rout. The solid Red means STOP, DO NOT PROCEED ON THIS ROUTE. because this would be an Absolute Signal. The Flashing Red means STOP, PRCEED AT RESTRICTED SPEED.

All of you guys are correct, but speed signalling came to the west 20 years ago on the SP. In single track territory or multipletrack teritory signaled only for the current of traffic, the railroad instituted and signal system that combined both rout and speed signalling because they were wantint to operate long TOFC/COFC trains at as close to passanger speeds as they could.

Route singaling is set up to stop a train within one block, so blocks are train length plus a bit. Operating rules reflect that. For instance, signals 3/4 mile apart can support speeds no faster than 35 MPH and often less.

So here is what the SP did with its standard vanila CTC System and signaled TO/TWC territories. With CTC, you had a HOME signal (A Block; A=absolute. They have a letter A on the mast) with two heads on one mast. Next out was the advance or distant signal, also with two heads on one mast. From then on, it was single head on single mast ABS (Automatic Block System). Old method if you were going to go inside would be GREEN, then Yellow over either Yellow or Red, and then RED over either Yellow or Red. (that is correct, no Red over Green.) New way was Green, Flashing Green, Flashing Yellow, Yellow over Y or R and Red over Y or R. It should be evident here that a 100 car Pig (89 foot cars) doing 75 MPH over humps could slow down and stop in a very controlled manner. Each signal indication had a mandatory upper limit. The lower head on the Distant Signal was simply a repeater for the lower head on the Ablolute signal except if the block ahead were occupied, then it would be red.