Torpedos

[Mookie]

Starting a new thread - what ARE they used for?

Jen

[CShaveRR]

They're used to startle a crew that's required to take action!

On the UP, we don't use them at all any more, since flagging isn't what it used to be. But if a train was stopped on the main line, the rear brakeman (often called a flagman for this very reason) would have to go back a specified distance to protect the train, which he did, armed with a flag, fusees, and torpedoes. When he was relieved from flagging, he would place two torpedoes on a rail a hundred feet or so apart (we later changed that so that pairs of torpedoes were placed on each rail), then he'd return to his train and they'd take off.

A following train, upon detonating these torpedoes (which are usually loud enough to be heard over any engine noises) was required to immediately reduce speed, looking out for trains or other obstructions, for a distance of two miles, after which it could resume normal speed. The rule did not specify how much the speed had to be reduced, so this was basically an attention-getting device.

[Anonymous]

jen, torpedoes are used to warn the crew of possible danger ahead. We don't use them anymore. We use fusees. If I remember right, you are to put 4 torpedoes on alternating rails 50 feet apart, so right rail 1, left rail 1 and so on. When you hit them, they blow up, sounding like an m-80. You are required to immediately reduce to restricted speed for two miles from the point that the first torpedoe went boom. I may be a little inaccurate, since we don't use them. A few old guys gave me a some. They are loud! I dropped a piece of steel on one from about ten feet up. Wow!
Ken

[CShaveRR]

My bad...

IronKen is correct, both about the placement of torpedoes in alternating fashion and about "restricted speed". Restricted speed does have an upper limit (20 m.p.h. on UP), and requires the crew to be able to stop within half of the range of vision, and be on the lookout for various things that might cause the speed of the train to be further reduced.

Carl

[edblysard]

Uh, yeah, what they all said...

[Anonymous]

Oh boy, this sure stirs up some old memories. I recall the old "bone-pile" at the GTW shops in Battle Creek, where old engines were parked, and left to the elements. As a youngster, I would go there and explore the old Alcos, NW's, SW's, etc. Most of them still had a box of fusees, and torpedoes in the cab. Being a mischevious teenager, I took these items for clandestine uses. I had lots of fun with those track torpedoes. Did some heck raising with the fusees as well. But, as I am aging, I don't do that sort of thing anymore..
T.C.

[Anonymous]

although they're not used much any more, they still must be in the cabs just in case.
i used to put on the rail when i would do my pre-service inspection, just to keep the movers awake this time of year. LOL
marty

[wabash1]

On the ns we used 2 torpedos 100 ft apart. and when the train hits it then they reduce to resticted speed for 1 mile. also when you put the torpedo down you lit a fuseee and dropped it there so if there was a train close he know that you was ahead also as you was walking back you would drop a fusse to warn a train not exceding its burn time.until you reached the rear of the train. also fussee was dropped anytime train speed was below track speed you would drop a fussee to let any train following know that he was within 10 min of your train. ( the old rule was you was not allowed to follow a train no closer than 10 min.) hope this helps

[kenneo]

Just another note.....on the SP, when we had cabooses (aka cabeese for more than one caboose), the restricted speed rule applied also. However, when you encountered a lit fusee, you stopped NOW and did not pass the fusee (aka flag or firestick) until it burnt out. If you overran the flag, you had to wait 10 minutes, listening for approaching trains, and proceed for 2 miles at restricted speed after the 10 minutes. Also, Rule 99 required the rear man to go back in dark territory and the head man to go forward in dark territory and leave guns (torpedoes) and flags. You could overrun your own guns without penality.

The classic test for the Trainmaster was to light a fusee and through it in front of the train so that it would be overrun and then test you on how well you did the protection moves. Often put about an hour on the delay sheet. [8][:(]

In dark territory, when a train was following another, the clearance card for the following trains had a line for "Do Not Leave (station name) until (time)" and was filled out by the Telegrapher after the proceeding train had departed. Dark Territory Rules required 10 minute separations between following trains so that the rear man could get back to stop the following movement should that be necessary.

Also, in such a situation where it was known that a train was or likely could be within that 10 minute window, the train ahead was required to "Drop Flag", which meant that the rear man lit a fusee every 10 minutes and dropped it off the rear platform. He was required to observe it until it was no longer visable to insure the following movement could find it lit if within the 10 min period.

Today, without cabeese, the railroads use TWC Rules which are supposed to protect trains ahead. Also, MofW crews are still supposed to set torpedos (aka guns) for use in warning trains like the rear man did. If used in conjunction with an Absolute or a Conditional Stop board, they also meant STOP. With the Conditional Stop, if the forman of the work had authorized the train to proceed prior to the train fireing the guns, the train was to proceed in accordance with the slow order not to exceed restricted speed.

And lastly, if you are in a situation where another train could be meeting you and you can't get into the clear (for any reason what so ever), off goes the head man with his guns and firestick far enough ahead so that there was no collision. Now you know why locomotives are still supplied with guns and firesticks.

Eric

[kenneo]

Just another note.....on the SP, when we had cabooses (aka cabeese for more than one caboose), the restricted speed rule applied also. However, when you encountered a lit fusee, you stopped NOW and did not pass the fusee (aka flag or firestick) until it burnt out. If you overran the flag, you had to wait 10 minutes, listening for approaching trains, and proceed for 2 miles at restricted speed after the 10 minutes. Also, Rule 99 required the rear man to go back in dark territory and the head man to go forward in dark territory and leave guns (torpedoes) and flags. You could overrun your own guns without penality.

The classic test for the Trainmaster was to light a fusee and through it in front of the train so that it would be overrun and then test you on how well you did the protection moves. Often put about an hour on the delay sheet. [8][:(]

In dark territory, when a train was following another, the clearance card for the following trains had a line for "Do Not Leave (station name) until (time)" and was filled out by the Telegrapher after the proceeding train had departed. Dark Territory Rules required 10 minute separations between following trains so that the rear man could get back to stop the following movement should that be necessary.

Also, in such a situation where it was known that a train was or likely could be within that 10 minute window, the train ahead was required to "Drop Flag", which meant that the rear man lit a fusee every 10 minutes and dropped it off the rear platform. He was required to observe it until it was no longer visable to insure the following movement could find it lit if within the 10 min period.

Today, without cabeese, the railroads use TWC Rules which are supposed to protect trains ahead. Also, MofW crews are still supposed to set torpedos (aka guns) for use in warning trains like the rear man did. If used in conjunction with an Absolute or a Conditional Stop board, they also meant STOP. With the Conditional Stop, if the forman of the work had authorized the train to proceed prior to the train fireing the guns, the train was to proceed in accordance with the slow order not to exceed restricted speed.

And lastly, if you are in a situation where another train could be meeting you and you can't get into the clear (for any reason what so ever), off goes the head man with his guns and firestick far enough ahead so that there was no collision. Now you know why locomotives are still supplied with guns and firesticks.

Eric

[Mookie]

Eric - we had and I believe we still have, some dark territory around the Lincoln NE area. This is good to know, since I often wondered how they moved around in that area. Seemed kind of scary to me!

Jen

[wabash1]

Eric

Nobody is required to use torpedos anymore. maintance of way crews use work between on the track warrents and it means they own the track till the give that warrent up. no exceptions. a lit unattendant fussee maeans slow down to restricted speed and proceed at that speed for 1 mile. in the days of train orders if you got by a lit fussee while being flagged you was fired. now a days its just used for rules compliance on the ns. and torpedos are no longer used at all. also I read a post about music somewhere on the site you mentioned hazard ky, I been there its a small town with a big hill. and they roll the sidewalks up at 6pm.

[zardoz]

Torpedos used to be a source of great amusment as well as a safety device.

One of my favorite pranks would be when I was on a train that was stopped on a siding, I would take 12-24 torpedos and put one on each rail at the same spacing in front of each wheel of the locomotive. If the spacing was correct, once I started the train moving, all 12 torpedos would go off at the same time. Guaranteed to wake up the conductor !! Of course, as the just-woken-up conductor was cursing me, the other 12 torps (which I places about 6" apart) would start going off, sounding quite amazing. And the cloud of smoke that exuded from under the locomotive from 24 torps looked like, well, like something had exploded. Sure am glad I wore earplugs! (Depending on who the conductor was determined whether I put the torps on the rail on my side or his side).

[Anonymous]

The demise of the use of the torpedo happened with the advent of locomotives with more soundproofing. In a Whisper Cab a torpedo might not even be heard.

[Mookie]

pfrench68 - Are you sure it wasn't because the conductors threatened great bodily harm with a fusee to the engineer after someone like Zardoz did his thing?

Jen

[kenneo]

Jen (aka Mookie): Notice replies from CShaveRR and Wabash about current use of torpedoes and fusees. As a result of several factors - not the least of which is trains running over track workers when the train was not supposed to be where it was - dispatchers have resorted to not letting any train into a TWC block where track work is being done. TWC rules - depending on the RR involved! - are supposed to permit a train to come right up to the work and then wait, if necessary. But that can get complicated with "what-ifs" and "If-this, then-that" situations which can cause accidents. Thus the use of block authority for MofW work. Where this is the case, regular use of torpedoes and fusees does not happen.

The purpose of advancing the trains as far as possible is to minimize delay. If you stop one train, this delays trains behind as well as those ahead that are going to meet the delayed train. These delayed trains, in turn, delay others. By the time you add up all of the delay costs (drew wages, engine hours, excess fuel burnt, per-diem on the cars, missed connections, and so on) you can have quite a sizeable bill. I once did a calculation for a recurring delay back in 1971 and found that it was costing $1,500 per week for the three road freights and five locals involved.

So how important was the elimination of this delay? On an annualized basis, we were dealing with just a bit under $80,000. The Trainmasters budget was over by $50,000 or so that year. The elimination of that delay gave him an "extra" $30,000 and improved schedule keeping to the point that traffic that had been diverted to truck returned to the rails.

This sounds like a digression from the topic, but it is intended to illustrate how operating practices can affect performance. The purpose of both the fusee and torpedo were two fold - one was safety and the - other was efficiency in operations. The inability of man to fully comply with the rules and thus causing accidents that dammage and destroy property, delay commerce and take lives has resulted in the type of knee-jerk reactions used in operating practices today.

Zardoz and Ironken -- I can't believe you both are around and in good health. A torpedo, held in the hand and exploded there, can amputate your hand up around the elbow. Carry a few of them in your pocket and they explode and you will provide a good imitation of a suicide bomber. 24!!!!!!!!!!! All that will be found is a big stain.

pfrench 68 - Really? Consider - a torpedo can be clearly heard in the cab of a steam locomotive such as a Big Boy or Alaganie (spelling incorrect) when they were make their loudest racket and the gun is 100 feet in front of you. It can certainly be heard in a Whisper Cab when it goes off 10 feet beneth you.

Eric

[Anonymous]

I have been on a steam locomotive traveling 60 MPH. Granted not as large a one as you are talking about. I piloted the Frisco 1522. Compared to a diesel the steamer was quiet.

[Mookie]

Eric: I appreciate the information. I will add it to my schooling!

Jen

[zardoz]

kenneo-
you are right in your amazement regarding my still being around. I would only carry the torps as far as down the ladder of the locomotive and under the wheels, but if were to have fallen and landed on the bag of torps, then I would have suffered the fate you described. Heck, I used to carry some in my car just in case a well-deserved crew I heard on the rr radio needed some 'excitement'. What a mess that car (and myself) would have been had I been in an accident and the torps had been hit!

Fortunately, with age (hopefully) comes wisdom.

[zardoz]

Thinking of the old days reminds me of another joke done with fusees (did you know that fusees (flares) will burn underwater?). Armed with that bit of knowledge, I would frequently pull the following joke on the new hires that were well-deserved of such treatment.

Near the north end of CNW's Butler Yard (Milwaukee) there was a spot that collected rainwater and did not drain well. Sometimes the water would be there for days or weeks. So with the cooperation of the conductor, we would arrange for me on the engine to pull down to the water hole and throw a few lit fusees in the water. Then we would back up to pick up the new guy (supposedly to get some switches-in those days the engineer did not have to get off the engine to throw switches), the bring him up toward the alleged spot he was needed. When we would stop near the water hole where the fusees were burning with the water glowing red, we would tell the new guy, "that was where the RR dumped some radioactive material years ago, and that the RR filled the hole with water to prevent too much radiation from getting out". The look of consternation on the new guys face as we sat there in the glow of "radioactivity" was usually quite amusing. Plus we would never let on that it was a joke; we'd let him find out on his own.

Nowdays I wouldn't do that to anyone, as it was rather cruel (as are most practical jokes).

[Anonymous]

obviously we all have had fun with torpedos. it's a wonder we never killed anybody

[mudchicken]

Had one go off inside my hi-rail truck in 100+ degree heat. Newly deaf fella got out of that truck mui-pronto! (should have seen it coming, paint can and pop cans had gone off earlier in the day!!)

Still like to see torpedoes used in working limits for Form B's, etc. - I'm sure I'm still here today because of them. Have been in several situations where train crews forgot where they were and zoomed thru a Form B or TWC limit and almost got us/ scattered us...CShave may not think flagging is a big deal anymore, but I beg to differ - It's a lifesaver to us that work on the property around trains (RE: 49CFR214)

Nobody mentioned the other issue that is killing off the use of torpedoes and fusees, that is the Bureau of Explosives paperwork that allows you to carry the stuff in the first place...post 9/11, the blanket RR permits have gotten increasingly difficult to get and paperwork compliance has gone way beyond excessive, almost to impossible.

[Anonymous]

The cement plant in my home town still uses them. The loading dock Is on a slight incline so when they are finished loading a car they release the brakes and the car rolls down the track to the correct siding. Because the cars roll silently they put torpedoes out whenever someone is working down track. They recently changed the rules. Each shift must take inventory and account for any missing torpedoes.
TIM A

[kenneo]

Mudchicken: Can you hear now??

I hartely agree about flagging. I read of rearenders (particularly coal trains in the Plains states) and can't but wonder how you can get two trains that close together. TWC rules are supposed to prevent that sort of thing by not permitting following movements into an occupied block except in signaled territory. And these all appear to happen in dark territory. A few head-ons, also.

The caboose was probably the most dangereous piece of equipment the rialroad had and from a personal injury standpoint, they were too long around. The SP had begun purchasing new cabeese with one-person seats and lap and sholder belts, and trains so equiped could not move until the rear end was completely secured and ready for blast off. But since its demise, rear-enders have gone from almost unheardof to commonplace. To me, that says volumes about the value of flagging - and questionable operating practices. In my 30 years railroading, I can remember only 4 collisions outside of the yards. Since the removal of the caboose and the use of TWC, I seem to hear about them with regularity.

About the caboose being dangerous, a friend was working the rear mans position on the Weyerhaeuser Logger. He had a bit over 100 loaded skeleten log flats. They were approaching a meet, and the hog head had slowed down to drop off the flagman, so my friend was out on the rear platform ready to drop off to set up his flags. The hog head was starting to streach the train when something came apart, and since the slack was still run in on the rear end, the caboose stopped NOW. My friend came flying through the rear door, pushing it ahead of him off its hinges until he hit the forward wall. He fell to the floor there just as the force of the stop shot the caboose backwards. My friend was airborn again and out the rear door he went onto the ties as the caboose came to another stop and shot back forwards, going end-over-end up over the cars in front of us, landing upright on top of the second car ahead of the caboose when it then slid down the side of the log load into the ditch. The conductor was laying out in the ditch and my friend was heap in the middle of the tracks. It all happened so fast that the UDE never had a chance to proagate to the rear end!

Eric

[Anonymous]

OUCH!!!! THAT HAD TO LEAVE A MARK !!!!!!!!!!!
Marty

[mudchicken]

Eric:

Can hear now. Wife thinks my loud voice is a function of talking over the drone of diesel engines for too many years...However, should the Verizon "spokesflunky" care to follow me or my survey crew around for a while, I'll show him plenty of places where his digital phone doesn't have a prayer of working! My darned "leash" is happily defective in that department.

Mudchicken

[sooblue]

Does anyone know what the torpedos are made out of?
Could they or were they a carbide ?
Sooblue

[kenneo]

Mudchicken: Sometimes "defective" is good.

Derailed1999: The conductor never worked again. My friend recovered[?] and was rehired as a clerk with his orinigal Trainmans date. About 10 years later he was RD'ed at full pension due to his injuries.

sooblue: Gunpoweder for the most part. Compression detonation, but can be set off by heat or friction.

Eric

[Anonymous]

Torpedoes are not made of gunpowder. Gunpowder would be much too moisture sensitive. I believe that Ed showed one to a relative that was a chemical engineer. He determined that it was most likely TNT. If you take a torpedo apart and set it on fire it will simply burn like a fusee, it will not explode.

[sooblue]

An explosive! of course, makes sense to me.
If you piled enough of them one on top of another could you tip an engine?