L.A. RUNAWAY !

[Anonymous]

wabash, that makes a lot of sense. Why derail the runaway at the yard before it gets any speed up? Spend a lot of money on track circuits and rail that is used only for wreaks and still tra***he freight cars and lading.

[edblysard]

Yeah, that would work better, but the ones down here are just spirng switches, its all industry trackage, so no real speed to speak or.
Ed

[wabash1]

Ed i think in the case like the up had in california a remote switch would be better. the runaway track they have on saluda is marked and you haft to time you movements between to points to be at speed. if you speed falls in the limits the switch lines for straight track movements and the train gets a clear, if you are speeding you are lined for the uphill runaway and the sand at the end.. it was designed for all those heavy coal trains.

[edblysard]

Not crazy at all, uness crazy like a fox.
Yes, several industries down here have just such a set up, with a spring switch, which will always return to the runaway track route. For through traffic, you have to hand line the switch for a faceing point move, for a trailing point move, you just run through the switch, its spring loaded, and returns to its original position for the sideing/runaway track. The only drawback is you can not back over this type of switch, untill you have gotten the last car clear, and hand lined it for a reverse move.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

This may sound kind of crazy to the talent here but here goes. Is there a switch that can be installed that would devert a run away into a sideing with say, a big pile of sand at the end? Have that switch always set to devert to that sideing. Designate 1 mile before and 1 mile after as a block. (I think that is the right word.) Have this switch controled by dispatch or have it set up so that only legitimate trains accupying this block would set the switch to allow trains to pass. Have colored signal lights at each end of the block so the switch is set to pass a train only when the proper light is green.
I hope I did not cause you guy's to laugh or embarrass myself to badly. Am I on the right track? (No pun intended)
TIM A

[croteaudd]

Forumist “pfrench68” in the 6/26 8:01 a.m. post and elsewhere is absolutely right that a “derail” would have stopped early on the Montclair-Commerce runaway.

Not too very long ago this contributor passed through the subject area during his travels, and recalling the topography thereat, was absolutely awestruck by the OBVIOUS inevitability of a runaway that could reach all the way to the Los Angeles River in downtown Los Angeles! So word of an actual runaway and subsequent disastrous wreck was no real surprise. I dare to say that IT WILL HAPPPEN AGAIN unless a derail of some sort is installed in Montclair.

[JoeKoh]

thats a great idea.
stay safe
joe

[vsmith]

They should stack it up next to the tracks and use it (the good pieces) to rebuild those peoples houses.

[Mookie]

Scott: What will the fire dept do with all that lumber?

Jen

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for your excellent comments to my question about the L.A. runaway. Luckily, no one
killed. Thank the Lord. The Fire department gets
all the lumber. Thanks again.

[edblysard]

And I bet they swear the productivity is going to go up.
Yeah, and we issue pigs pilots licenses.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I didn't mention our other two mains because they really don't go through Galesburg Yard. From the old ATSF the trains have to go through a cutoff to get into Galesburg Yard.

I am the youngest in seniority of the three engineers left in Galesburg. I work the rip track. Flat switch is all we do. Probably the reason that they still have an engineer on the job. Flat switching doesn't appear to be much fun with remotes. I watched a switchman try to take slack to cut off a single car that had a BO handbrake. The remote kicked the car about 5 car lengths. They don't have much finesse.

Going over crossings is not considered a problem for RCOs, the ones in Galesburg do it daily. The biggest problem is keeping both boxes close enough to the locomotive to maintain radio contact. If one box loses contact the brakes get set. A number of knuckles have been torn out because they use air in the head end of the train, when contact is lost the remote sets the brakes on the cars the run-out can be rather harsh. The boxes transmit about a mile, give or take depending on the conditions. They put up two repeaters in Galesburg to keep them in contact. If you tend to range out of the yard away from the repeaters with big cuts of cars or around curves that have structures that dampen out the radio signal there could be trouble.

[edblysard]

Yes, topography does play a important factor.
But we dont have a hump, we flat switch, 50 to 70 car cuts.
Entering our yard from the north is two mainlines, one turns out to UP's North Shore line, or enters our yard, the other gives access to UP's Basin Yard and our yard also.
From there, you can get to 6 receiving tracks, and 6 sub yards in the complex.
Entering from the south, you have our east and west "mains" that follow the north side of the ship channel, about 30 miles of industries.
Then we have a interlocker with the old T&P to the city docks and the storage yard at the turning basin. Also from the south is the UP main, which we have joint use of, that leads to the south side of the ship channel over a swing bridge, and our "main" there, also 30 to 35 miles long, it runs through our two other major yards, Manchester and Pasadena.
All access to and from our trackage into mainline is CTC, dispatched from the joint UP/BNSF center in Spring, Tx.
North Yard, where I work, is a little lower that the surrounding grade, its built on fill, dredged when the Ship Channel and turning basin were being built.
We have been here since 1924, and never had a runaway, but we did have a rather inexperienced switch crew on the south end kick a 25 car cut through the yard, and out on the main. It stopped, but required a little help from the north end switch crew, who chased it down and tied on to the trailing car.
The south end crews switchman helper had caught the cut, but instead of getting on in the middle, he got on the rear car and tied a brake, realizing too late that one hand brake, no matter how hard you tie it, wont stop the other 24 cars, it just slid right along, made good sized flat spots on the wheels.
Personaly, I dont kick a car to someone to catch and tie down, if we need a bumper, I shove to spot, and tie it down. But others think kicking a car to someone is ok, and the rules dont say you cant do it, it just says you shouldnt.
No RCOs, yet. Dont know if they will work here, due to the geography, we are in the middle of a lot of neighborhoods, with a bunch of main street crossings. But cutting cost is the word of the day, so some nitwit will bring them here, I am sure.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I know of a derail that got cracked in half like an egg when a derrick rolled over the derail. The operator didn't set the handbrake. When a coal train rumbled through and down the hill the derrick followed and coupled onto the coal train. They now have a split rail derail and I have never seen anything re-rail or get by one of those.

Topography has to be a factor when considering protection. A runaway track is great if they have the space and are willing to spend the money. But no protection is obscene. I can just visualize a cornfield meet with 30 cars of lumber going 70 MPH.

The yard I work in is the converging point of five mainlines, two are double track. There are between 1800 and 2400 cars humped a day and 50,000 cars a month run through the yard. Before they built the new yard we had a derail at the South end of the yard, the only direction we have to worry about runaways. The derail was never an obstacle to getting the work done. I have seen cars derailed there a number of times. I also saw a track leave town when the operator forgot to put the tower operator forgot to put the derail back on. There is a little rise in the track leaving the yard and while the cars did split the mainline switch, they didn't make it out of the switching limits. If they had they would have gone about 10 miles. I believe that if the conditions were right they would have been gone.

When they built the new yard I think the designers thought the rise was enough to keep them in, I don't agree. They have installed a derail on the hump lead because it also meets the main on the South end of the yard. That was because of the RCOs

[edblysard]

Agreed, I wasnt saying your wrong, or that there isnt derails in other yards, I was pointing out htat here in Houston, we dont need them or have them. I did and do agree that having them in yards like the one mentioned, or others on a grade would work. Personaly, I think a runaway track would work better, I have seen cars pass over a derail, then rerail themselves at the next switch frog they come to, and have seen bolt on or clamp on derails just snap right off.
Didnt mean to pick a arguement, maybe I just didnt make my point clearly.
Either way, bet on the crew who drug those cars in being out of service, or fired outright.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I was in Houston once and I doubt anything would roll anywhere it was so low and flat. That is not the case in California. The main out there appeared to be busy and possibly CTC, since the dispatcher had control of the switches into the siding. My argument for a derail was for just such circumstances.

[Anonymous]

We use to have one at the South end of our yard where it exited out on the main. When they built a new yard they left out the derail. When they went to RCO a derail was out on the South end of the hump lead that also meets the main.

[edblysard]

Use to be te same here, all they ever saw was the big board. We had a lady dispatcher who worked the old MOPac lines, she went to work at the joint dispatching center in Spring, was one of the first ones to take advantage of the rides we offered. Was amazed at what she really saw, and what it really looked like. After three years looking at nothing but the board, it now made a lot more sense to her. She got the rst of them to come out, and ride with us, the UP crews, and the BNSF guys, things work a lot more smoothly now that they know where the tracks really go, and dont go.
ANd in my yard, there is only two ways in and out, both double track, one out to the "mainlines" and one set into the ship channel areas. Way too busy to mess with derails, we get 4 to 5 member line tains in per shift, and twice that many in from our industries.
But, like you said, at least hes trying to back it up. And I bet that UP yard gets a runaway track, real soon.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[wabash1]

Ed

one other thing here in the area i am from the derails wouldnt work he says the derail would be on a out bound track there is only one track here and it is for inbound and outbound. there was a derailment here over that switch and in a few hours had all cars rerailed and line opened the amount of trains waiting to use that trackage was huge. and the cost im glad i wasnt involved in that one either. but give him credit. he not only made a statement he tried backing it up. it isnt going to work. but its a fair idea. are dispatchers have never rode are trackage they look at a track profile and try dispatching trains. makes for long days

[Soo2610]

Yeh, He said they indicated it probably wouldn't be a very good idea to repeat the mistakes! Something about job security....

[wabash1]

a few years ago the fra made it manditory to have a emergency response in case of a chemical release or a fire from propane and the such. now this would fall into this catigory as far as the evacuation and who to call after the wreck. not before. I am sorry to say this is what the stock holders get for hiring book smart buisness guys who read their railroading from a book. and not from the rank and file like they use to. a seasoned railroader would have had this defuse much sooner than the colage people they hire now. but i have no other info than what you have said so i still cant say either way. but it dont look good for the crews,

[wabash1]

well this would be nice if you could get the operator to do there job. in major yards there is no derail. in the smaller yards there is derails on are railroad anyways. i dont work in remote controll teritory so all switches are lined by the crew, in dark teritory cars could come at you at anytime but in abs when you have bad blocks this is one thing you are looking for. and trust me if i saw a cut of cars comming at me im getting off the engine and watching that wreck from a safe point.

[edblysard]

Nope, no power switches, in fact, we just removed the last one, due in part, to switchmen activating it in a hurry, and lining it under cars.
I work in a 62 track terminal yard, fed by UP's Englewood yard and BNSF South yard, and 450 industries along the Houston Ship Channel. We have zero derails on our inbound and receiving tracks, only at the entrance to the round house do we have derails.
No need to have them because we are the lowest point around, almost at sea level, within 100 yards of the turning basin. Runaways would be coming to us, not from us.
We do insist that all crews from other railroads know and follow our rules, which includes secruing tracks per the GCOR. We do gripe to the supers of the crews who fail to follow this simple rule.
None of the yards here, Englewood, Settagast, East Yard, New South Yard, Old South Yard, Basin Yard, Booth Yard, Strang Yard and Spring have a derail located on the entrance to them.
I could see a yard on a steep grade, and most industries haveing derail protecting their plants, and yards, but why would we want to do that in a busy terminal yard?
Thats what the rules are for, if you follow them, no problem, if you dont, your fired.
The odds are in favor of a split rail or power derail tearing up a set of locomotives going about their business instead of stopping a runaway.
All that said, again, in a yard on a grade, who would drag a cut of cars in, and not put the brakes on the decending end?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Hi Ed,
According to media reports out here in California, (also suspect, except for the many miles trveled) the UP had well over 25 minutes to alert the authorities to several possible crash sights. As fast as the police are out here, that should have been plenty of time to evacuate the possible sites in case of a derailment. The local politicians are really fumming right now.

This isn't the first time California authorities were not warned by an industry experiencing a major calamity - until it was too late. It happens a lot in the petrochemical plants near where I live in the Bay Area. It raises a big stink here too. (no pun intended)

A few years back, an SP pota***rain got away from them in on Cahon Pass. Over an hour later, it went off the tracks at the bottom of the grade, straight into a sleeping neighborhood. No police ever got a warning call then either - lots of dead people.

One would think they could do better - go figure.

May all your poles be smooth -
- Old Pole Burner -

[vsmith]

Apparently the dispatcher office is in San Bernardino about 30 miles further east from where the runaway started and about 60 miles east of LA. The UP has stated they did not have an emergency plan because they didnt think something this serious could occur. The time line was about 25-30 minutes from start to finish, and they now say the cars were moving at over 80mph (YIKES!) when they hit the siding. Dispatchers only discovered the true speed of the cars about 2 minutes before the it would be at the siding and said they couldnt switch it back. They also said that there was a propane (or LPG train) in the yard and that they had to stop it then and there. This is all coming from quotes from the UP thru the local media.

[Mookie]

Ed - let's hope they roll into a safe siding -
Thanx for the info. I am so glad it isn't me down in the middle of all those refineries and plants. That's scary!

Jen

[Anonymous]

The derail I am referring to would be at the exit of the yard. If your yard is that busy then you probably have power switches. A split rail derail works just like a power switch. If you forget, you are fired anyway for exceeding your track authority.

[edblysard]

Jen, pretty sure they do have a plan, but I wonder if things got out of hand so fast they didnt have time, or if they were so concentrated on the cut of cars they didnt even think about it. Down here, because a neighborhood grew up around our yard, the OEM(office of emergency management) equires us to have a evacutaion plan not only for the yard, but it requires us to have a way to warn the surrounding homes of a problem, say a cyanide car leaks, or a LPG tankcar catches on fire, we have a huge horn/siren that rattles the windows. During drills, we contact the local fire dept and police depts, there are 3, HPD, Galena Park PD, and Jacinto City. Remember, we are in the middle of a huge, 90 mile long complex of refineries and petrochemical plants, so the local TV stations are on our list, and the list of all the industries here, so if a problem does arise, we can call them, and they cut in on whatever they are brodcasting to inform the public.
Shelter in place is a term all the kids in Pasadena, Galena Park and Jacinto City learn from kindergarten on up, (close the doors and windows, turn off A/C, and keep tuned)
Bet this isnt the only time something got away from them at that yard, and bet the FRA will review their response policy, and their lack of response this time very carefully. Count on some heads rolling.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

Well, gee - that makes sense and look how simple it is. Don't even have to figure a grade or know what needle bearings are!

Thanx Ed

Jen