"Running in the britches"

[foamer4000]

I was down at the Durango & Silverton this past weekend. I inquired about the water brake. I was flatly informed that water must never enter the cylinders. After some more discussion it was agreed apon that I was inquiring about the drifting throttle. (water brake). Moral to this story: If you are a real railroad man, inquire about the drifting throttle. Only a foamer asks about the water brake! The oficial railroad term for useing the drifting throttle is "Running in the britches"
David

[edblysard]

Drifting throttle, sounds good.
And if they ever let me run a steam locomotive, I'd call it Bob, Betty or Mr Bojangles if thats what it takes to get my hand on the throttle.
Did they have a operating example of a drifting brake?
Did you get lucky enought to get in the cab for a run?
Got to ride a few miles in UPs 3985 a few years ago. What a rush. And it wasnt as hot as you would expect, but loud, more loud than any diesel.
Stayed out of the way and watched them work, once they got her going, and had everythig set where they wanted, the ride was fantastic. You would think it would be rough, but the thing weighs so much, and rides on such huge springs, it was really smooth and even.
Met Steve Lee, and a guy whos name I belive is Creighton, and most of the crew. Talk about people who love their job, these folks would sleep in there if they could. And they didnt really look at their guages, they listened to the locomotive, and kept their hands on it all the time, just resting their hands on the controls, the fireman said she talks to them, and they can feel what they need to do before the guages ever start to show anything.
They threw me out and made me go back to the car after the first stop, but you will never met a nicer, more friendly bunch of folks, who really belive in what they are doing.
And you can see why an engineer would find a favorite steam locomotive, you would just about have to run the same one over and over, to learn what she was telling you to do.
But what a way to make a living!
Stay Frosty
Ed

[cabforward]

i used to run in the britches a lot, usually with water.. between 3-4 years, i got it figured out.. haven't had any problems except for the ride on the roller coaster at the state fair..

[foamer4000]

Ed
I was in the D&S 476. She was parked in the roundhouse museum, in Durango, Co. She was not under steam. They have a very nice display their of the old Rio Grande narrow gauge. Lots of photos and artifacts. You can look thru the roundhouse windows and watch the shop guys work.

I have been lucy enough to be in the cabs of UP #844 & UP #3985. Unfortinatly they were not moving at the time. I have also ridden behind each one. I have even seen the roundhouse and engine shop in Cheyenne. I have also managed to get photos of them doubleheading! But I must I am a little jelouse of your cab ride. Steve and his crew are a class act. They live steam railroading, getting a salary is just iceing in the cake for them.
David

[foamer4000]

Be careful at the fair, those rides can be overstimulating sometimes.
David

[sooblue]

Hey David!
Did they explain the drifting throttle? and how to use it?
There's only one throttle on a steam loco. and than the reverser. The engineer has control of back pressure though.
Water in the cylinders at any time is dangerous and totaly undesirable. The last thing any engineer wants to allow.
Of course it's unavoidable at times, as when your sitting at a stop. So they blow it out the cylinder cocks when they start back up.
Sooblue

[edblysard]

Tell you what, If the top dogs at UP had half a brain between them all, Mr Lee, and his crew, would be on TV, and in every magazine add UP runs. Lee is one of the guys who can inspire others to belive in what he does and what he says. Up couldnt do better for a spokesman, and as a symbol, both #844 and #3985 are, if anything, unforgettable. Imagine the 3985 on film, with "still Building America" written underneath the image, with Lee doing a voice over.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[foamer4000]

Sooblue,
This thread is a reference to an earlier thread on water brakes. Water brakes is a reference to wet steam allowed onto the cylinder in the opposit of the normal running position. Europeans took great advantage of this in steam days. It was tested in the states and the only railroad that used it extensively was the Grande (D&RGW).
The mechanic I was talking to did not understand the termanology and took it literally. A little bit of old railroad termanology has died! The Grande locomotives have a Throttle, A reverser lever, and a DRIFTING THROTTLE. A drifting throttle is engaged on decending grades, like an early dynamic brake. To RUN IN THE BRITCHES, the hog head will close the throttle, open the cylinder cocks, place the reversing lever in reverse, and open the drifting throttle. (maybe not in this exact order) The drifting throttle lets wet steam into the cylinder in opposition to cylinder travel. The steams resistance slows the piston and provides cushoning for it. On the locomotive I saw the drifting throttle was located on the front cab wall. It was connected to a steam pipe that originated at the steam dome. The pipe traveled down the engineers side. It split at the front of the locomotive and ran to each steam chest, it entered the steam chests thru the exaust pipes.
David

[foamer4000]

Not a bad idea. I am shure that the railfans would love it and everyone else would complain the UP is useing 1940's locomotives! I have one of the steam crew videos that shows the Challenger pulling a double stack train w/o a helper. That is a dam impressive sight. Coal smoke (oil these days) and black beat out flags and flairs and puke yellow any day!
David

[edblysard]

Yeah, kinda funny, a old locomotive doing a modern job, I have a video which includes the 3985 rescueing a dead diesel. Dont remember all the details, but the freight engine croaked, and the only thing near was the Challenger, so they coupled up to the rear, and pushed it over whatever hill it died climbing, and shoved them into the next siding. Seems the diesel crew had no idea the helper dispatched to shove them wasnt a diesel. You can tell from the video Lee is having a blast telling the story.
And they pay him to do this, what a life!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[foamer4000]

Was it the Northern Ed? To my knowledge it was the 844. The hill was Archer and it was a west bound. The Steam crew was stuck behind them on the return trip. The crew had a hard time convincing the dispatcher the northern could do it. Do it she did. It had to be a great feeling useing the Union Pacifics oldest locomotive to get the job done. A pat on the back for the steam crew! Did you know the 844 has never been retired?
David

[edblysard]

Might have been the 844, been a while since I watched the video, and yeah, she sure could, and did. My understanding is UP bought the northerns to run passenger and freight, but mostly for the desert leg of the passenger routes. Either way, its one heck of a machine. In the video, Lee explaines how this machine, in his opinion, was the pinnical of steam locomotives, not the biggest, or the strongest, but the one that used the best of the technology of the time to produce the best at speed HP to tons ratio, which,, when speed is what your after, it exactly what you want. He goes on the state that at speed shes the most effecient steam locomotive designed.
Don't know about that, not a steam freak, but the 844 and 3985 are sure impressive to watch.
Utterly astounding, hot water can do all of that!
I knew the 844 has never been off the roster, smart folks. And I would have loved to get a photo of the crew when they cut away from the rear, bet they were grinning so much they looked like kids.
Now, if we can just convince them to put a Big Boy back together, and in service!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[sooblue]

Boy David,
I understand the attempt to slow the engine by backpressure (retarding the engine) but some of what you described doesn't make sense.(not that you’re getting it wrong)
I can see using saturated steam rather than superheated steam, saturated steam has less inherent power but using it creates a lot of water which is asking for trouble in this application. Hence opening the cyl. cocks.

Running the piping to the exhaust of the steam chest doesn't make sense to me because it would simply go up the stack as the path of least resistance. In order to really slow the train (like dynamic brakes do) you would have to really compress the steam down before it was exhausted, but it was injected into the exhaust pipe and the majority of it went up the stack.

Reversing to retard forward motion could be done with any engine. Reverse the engine slightly and apply light throttle.
The engineers I have talked to say that they could have been fired if they did that because of the high chance of damaging the engine. Emergencies excluded.

Even in drifting, the engines had to have some backpressure to cushion the throw of the piston.
It sounds to me like that is more what you have described.

Anyway, The pay off isn't worth the possible price.
You said the D&RGW was the only RR to use this system. I wonder how often the engineers actually used it?
I would like to hear from a d&rgw historian.
Sooblue

[foamer4000]

Ed,
You shure soumd like a steam freak to me! The 844 shure is impressive. I have had the pleasure to ride behind her in Idaho @ 72 mph unassisted. She shure puts out the power. She was the most modern and efficient desighn of her time. No big Boys in the future. The wheel base is too long and are too hard on track. They Up has to be careful where the northern goes, becouse of the wheel base. They moved a Big Boy in Denver last year and derailed it twice!
David

[foamer4000]

Sooblue
From my understanding it was used quite exstensively. I said the pipe entered thru the exaust side. I belive that it was routed into the valve chamber, and not allowed to vent to atmosphere. The supply line to the water brake is quite small. 3/4" dia. Maybe this was safer than plugging the engine with the throttle.
David
Check out this link or contact the Colorado railroad museum.
http://rgmhs.drgw.org/

[sooblue]

Thanks David,
One thing for you to know.
The exhaust in the steam chest or the valve is only the exhaust. It will exhaust through the stack no matter what.
The exhaust in the cylinder on the other hand can be either side of the piston depending on what side is under pressure.
Just so you know, I don't doubt you. I just don't think it makes sense (niether did the other RRs I guess)The only thing that makes sense here is it being used for back pressure when the engine is drifting to cushion the piston.
A 3/4 inch line of saturated steam isn't going to do much retarding as it would only have a split second to inject into the cylinder than compress and exhaust out the stack. even at 150 - 200 psi
I really need to see it in action.
I'll check out that link.
Sooblue