Rail Mergers

[Mookie]

Trains Magazine - July 2003 - Larry Kaufman article. Last paragraph.

Merger of BNSF-KCS-NS-CN and on the other side UP-CSX-CP, ending up with 2 major railroads.

Any thoughts pro or con?

Jen

[wabash1]

bnsf and the ns is very posible and the csx and the up also not sure of the others

[edblysard]

I think UP wont let BNSF get the KCS, for no other reason than KCS has something UP wanted really bad, the Tex Mex and TFM, the last piece in the puzzle that would let UP own the western half of North America. Remember a few years ago, Up tried to buy the mexican national railroad, and Haverty came out of nowhere and ponyed up the money, so KCS ended up the high bidder? Up, and KCS both know that a lot more manufacturing is going to move south of the border, with their help, and a lot more goods are going to start flowing into mexico, as well as out.If they get the KCS and CP, you can paint the western half of North America Armour Yellow.
BNSF and NS are just about the same railroad already, if BN would just get in gear and get NS and CSX to work out the money issue, bet CN would help, look where CN yards are, the three roads cover everything east of the mississippi already, most of the chicago interchange traffic, and with CN, they would form a railroad thats not only east and west, coast to cost connections, but north and south from Canada to the Gulf Coast.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[JoeKoh]

Ns and BNSf are a good fit.They could build a better interchange yard in Kansas city too.On CSX I've seen run through power of both bnsf and up and cp.Time will tell.Jen I just found out grandma is making her secret ice cream dessert for this weekend.Matt says we'd send you some but it would melt.
stay safe
joe

[Mookie]

Tell Matt to send it on a reefer car - BNSF to Lincoln!

Jen

[JoeKoh]

grandma works at place keeps things cold for cambells. maumee & western transfer to CSX transfer to bnsf Chicago.hmmm how long would it take to get to lincoln nebraska?It will be on top of the v-8 juice.
stay safe
Joe

[Anonymous]

Ok this starts with a story of mergers and NOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ICE CREAM YOU HAVE PROBLEMS!!!!!!!!!

[Mookie]

UP - so what is your thinking on the mergers? Are you for or agin? And why?

Jen

[Anonymous]

So what will happen when there are only two major railroads left? Will it be utopia?? Will it get all trucks off the hiways? Will it be like the "big bang" theory, where all the railroad will break into small lines again? Or will it ultiately merge into one railroad? Who will be the winner??

[zardoz]

The winners will be the CEO's and that ilk; the losers will be the employees and shippers.

[CliqueofOne]

Hillbilly Harrison has already performed the Americanised Coperate Terrorism of CN employees with his shock and awe antics up here in Canada. I feel that the once proud and purely Canadian, Canadian National Railways will soon fade away, not only in name, but also as a national railway in Canada. Almost 33 years on and less than 4 to go. I wouldn't do it again. Gene B.

[edblysard]

Hi UP,
With railroaders, food is never, ever a problem, unless you tell them where it is, then the problem is you dont have any left for yourself.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Maybe, maybe not. I think you will see UP, in what ever form it ends up, as the big bulk railroad, into and out of mexico, lots of unit trains, and a good intermodel service. BNSF will end up running the Chicago to LA intermodel, and something like the old blue streak merchandiser. And remember, Santa Fe did intermodel right, and BNSF really stands for Brand New Santa Fe, a lot of the old SF guys stayed, and a lot still run the show. If both of the super roads do what they should, you should see big interchange yards in the middle of the country, to trade trains off, classify and block trains for their destinations, and then, at their final destinations, I bet a lot of new short lines, and belt lines will spring up, because the two super roads wont have the need or the desire to do the local switching, there will not be enough profit in it to justify the cost.
That why the railroad I work at exsist now, because in 1924, when we were created, over 50 different railroad entered Houston, and there way no way they could all build tracks into the city, or to the industries that are here. Pretty much, if it comes into the port of houston proper, the city docks or anywhere on either side of the Houston ship channel, we service it. We pull and spot the industries, take their cars to our north yard, or pasadena yard, and interchange with UP, BNSF and Tex Mex. Save them the cost and headaches of trying to service over 400 industries crammed into 90 miles along a waterway. And we do it cheaper than any of the three could, because our cost is less. We dont have to maintain thousands of miles or track and infrastructure, we employee 350 T&E personel, and about 120 office employees, including the officers of the company.
My bet is that if we do end up with two super roads, each one will custom fit itself for it's side of the mississippi, leave the local work for railroad like mine, and the rates and service will improve. Every time a car sits still, in a yard, or in the shippers sidding, it cost the railroad and the shipper money, in the form of lost revenue and labor. The more efficent they become, the more money they make, but the less it will cosst the shipper.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[andrewjonathon]

According the Trains Newswire last week UP just took a bunch of UPS traffic from BNSF Chicago-LA route. That must be a shock to BNSF who I imagine thought UP couldn't touch that traffic given their stellar service and UP's longer route. Any ideas why UPS would make such a move?

[andrewjonathon]

I know railroad employees may not like the Harrison/Tellier duo of the 1990's/2000's, however I seem to remember the first half of the 1990's were pretty bleak for Canadian railroads. Both CN and CP were bleading red ink year faster then you can say bankruptcy. It seemed there was no future for Canadian railroads. AT the time the arguement was that they couldn't compete with the US railroads and trucks for a number of reasons such as higher taxes, higher fuel costs etc. Weren't the mainlines in Eastern Canada were going to be merged into one railroad because they were losing so much money they either had to merge or go into bankruptcy. Then along came Tellier. I can't speak to what he did to the employees (other than the obvious job cuts) but within a few years the cries that the railroads were dying subsidied and were replaced with talks of profit. Then the operating ratio started to drop dramatically. Discussions went from the inevitable collapse to stories of success and imitation of CN by US rivals. It is too bad if the employees suffered but I wonder where CN would be if wasn't for Tellier and Harrison. Who knows may be a good tax increase would have taken care of it all. But that would have tough since at the same time the government of Canada was slipping towards bankruptcy and was only saved by a gentleman of similiar quality to Tellier and Harrison...Paul Martin. The medicene was tough but necessary and ultimately worked for both.

[CliqueofOne]

Cut jobs and track and the profit goes up. Short term as it is. Simple as that. CN is a private company that is not there for Canadians but for the foreign investers. Plus there are yet more trucks on the road than ever before. Gene B.

[Anonymous]

Well Jen my feeling is that the mergers are ok but the way it is is fine too so really both ways would be fine I just dont see why it went from talking mergers to ice cream.

UP3593

[Anonymous]

I know at the time I read this though i thought that it was strange that they went from mergers to food

UP3593

[Mookie]

well, because we are humans - and humans like to visit a little. That way the forum doesn't get so rigid that we can't be flexible at all. It isn't a political forum where you can only talk about the subject at hand. And the ice cream was an inside joke - involving some chocolate cake that I was guarding. So if you don't mind a little humor, that is what it was about. If however, you want to stay strictly to the subject, you will just have to ignore some of us who poke a little fun at each other.

But believe me, when it is train-talk, I am dead serious about that! I want to learn and I am very serious about that too! So choose your side, stay tuned and join in.

Jen

[Mookie]

Foul! I only got a little frosting on my fingers. You can't prove a thing!

Jen

[JoeKoh]

i got pictures of matt.pictures say 1000 words.
stay safe
joe

[edblysard]

Oh, so now your going to blame matt,? A poor little defenseless choco-holic kid?
Wow, thats harsh...
The Unihead Ed

[Mookie]

That is just wrong Joe! We (Matt and I) plead temporary insanity or maybe not paying attention!

Jen

[Mookie]

He can't type very well, so I am safe from him at least! And chocoholic isn't a bad thing!

Jen

[Anonymous]

Here is some food for thought.Is bigger better? What will be the response of governments to lessening competition even though these mergers are primarily end to end? Given the historical signifigance of the railways in the development of Canada what would the Canadian government's response to a take over or merger of either CN or CP by an American railroad. And similarily what would the American public's opinion be and the US governmnet's reaction if either CN or CP increased their presence in the US? The only merger I see on the horizon is KCS becuase of its routing to Mexico and its ownership of TFM.
The tendancy with large railroads is to focus only on the lines that have existing density and ignore other lines rather than attempt to increase density on other lines. So where is the upside of this? There is nothing wrong with the status quo except either the long term commitment or their ability to fund infrastructure. Chicago is a classic case in point as the most recent Trains issue pointed out with the number of non-interlocking junctions. Yards are for storing railcars and trains and mainlines are for moving trains both pasenger and freight as quickly as possible. Mergers don't necessarily solve any of these problems.

[Mookie]

I agree, bigger is not necessarily better. But seems to me that the mentality of the US is just that - we are super-sizing everything from food to entertainment. So after a couple of generations of that thinking - the general public, as well as ceo's and presidents feel the same way. Then you throw in more money, bigger toys and who cares, really, whether it works well. It will work well enough! Granted - over-simplification, but this is the mind-set. I think if you take this groundwork, you can build on it and branch out into other areas - people who will say that we have super railroads and small side roads feed into it and people who will say we have super railroads and everything on either side is being destroyed.

Do the US people really know or care if CP or CN come into the country? Most people I know don't even know about or have never heard about them. As long as it isn't a disease with letters!

How many people in the US can name any railroad?

The genie is out of the lantern, it won't go back in. The railroads will eventually merge into two super powers, it may just take a generation or two longer. We are far removed from the depression and no one has that tight-fisted mentality any more. Everything IS bigger and better!

Jen

[CliqueofOne]

Since CN is actually an American owned railway in Canada it shouldn't bother anyone in the States if CN supposedly bought an American railway. As for CN buying Illinois Central, well what we have here is a case of the tail wagging the dog. Gene B. Signal Department. CN.

[Mookie]

Gene - Really! I wasn't aware of that. I thought CN and CP were both strictly Canadian.

And can you explain the CN/IC comment. I am confused.

Jen

[CliqueofOne]

Ever since CN supposedly purchased IC the only thing Canadian about CN is Canadian in the name. The company is directed by the Big Shots south of the border. E. Hunter (Hillbilly) Harrison is now in charge and the company shows it. Morale is rock bottom. Top management induce fighting between the departments and among these same departments. Field supervisors who came up through the ranks are treated poorly which in turn filters down to their people. Back-stabbing and finking have become the norm. The system is totally out of control. Most of the employees think only of retirement at 55 if they have the points. Almost no one in the rank and file wants to work till 65. The railway is now run by people that have absolutely no interest in the opinion of the lesser ranks. It's not around to serve the Canadian public but the interests of the American shareholders who have the majority of the stocks and the top echelon of the company. Hillbilly has nothing but contempt for the Signal Department of which I've been with for 33 years now. I watched an amateurish film in which this CEO who is held in such high regard by the corporate world, slander the department. I guess he is intimidated by the high intelligence of the Signal Department members. As a whole we are not that easily brainwashed. I just wi***hat Trains magazine would do an exposé on CN from the perspective of the lower ranks in the company. Gene B.

[JoeKoh]

Hi
Bigger isn't always better.The Guys at Csx weren't happy with the longer hours and schedules of trains after the takeover of Conrail.People were stuck along ways from home.NS didn't fair much better.
staysafe
joe
(jen matt says what i should type for him)