"Adequate warning devices",

[Anonymous]

Something else to watch for is if the gate comes down 15 feet from the rail it is closest to. The road alignment, the roughness of the crossings. All traffic control devices.

So the crossing where the girl was killed on the bicycle had the WRONG
(not adequate) active signals. How does the FRA, state, railroad
inspectors miss this minor detail?
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/legsregs/directives/fapg/cfr0646b.htm
(3) (I) "Adequate warning devices", under Sec. 646.214(b)(2) or on
any project where Federal-aid funds participate in the installation of
the devices are to include automatic gates with flashing light signals
when one or more of the following conditions exist:

(A) Multiple main line railroad tracks.

(B) Multiple tracks at or in the vicinity of the crossing which may be
occupied by atrain or locomotive so as to obscure the movement of
another train approaching the crossing.

(C) High Speed train operation combined with limited sight distance at
either single or multiple track crossings.

(D) A combination of high speeds and moderately high volumes of highway
and railroad traffic.

(E) Either a high volume of vehicular traffic, high number of train
movements, substantial numbers of schoolbuses or trucks carrying
hazardous materials, nusually restricted sight distance, continuing
accident occurrences, or any ombination of these conditions.

(F) A diagnostic team recommends them.

(ii) In individual cases where a diagnostic team justifies that gates
re not appropriate, FHWA may find that the above requirements are not
applicable.

Bicyclist hit, killed by train in Versailles

Monday, May 26, 2003

By Gary Rotstein, Post-Gazette Staff Writer







A female bicyclist crossing railroad tracks in Versailles was struck and killed by a train yesterday afternoon.

Samantha Bouchard, 24, of McKeesport, was pronounced dead at the scene after the 3:15 p.m. incident.

She was trying to cross tracks on Juniper Street at First Street, where train traffic activates flashing lights but no swinging gate or arm to block vehicles.

Bouchard may have been using the Yough bicycle trail, which passes through the community, said Dave Obley, chief of Versailles Volunteer Fire Co. No. 1.

He said two trains apparently passed the Juniper Street crossing in opposite directions at the same time.

"There was a train heading eastbound on the tracks, and she was waiting for the train to clear," Obley said. "We're assuming that once it cleared, she started across and never heard the westbound train coming."

He was among a group of firefighters marching at the same time in the Versailles Memorial Day parade just a few blocks away.

They arrived at the crossing within two minutes of the borough's emergency siren activating, and Obley said he and paramedics both attempted to revive Bouchard.

CSX Railroad spokesman Gary Sease said trains are permitted to travel up to 40 mph through the area, but he was uncertain how fast the freight train was traveling at the time.

The crew stopped and gave interviews to police investigators, but Sease said he had no details of what they said.

He said the train, which was headed from Philadelphia to Chicago with two locomotives and 55 cars, was one of about a dozen using the tracks yesterday.

Holiday weekend traffic was light, he said, compared with the 25 trains a day normally passing through the area.

Obley noted that some area residents had expressed concern about whether the crossing was safe, but he said authorities knew of no serious incidents there in the past 20 years

"We have two crossings in town, and that's the safer of the two," the chief said.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary Rotstein can be reached at [e-mail] or 412-263-1255.

[wabash1]

The answer is simple she didnt look listen and live. but to further your statement that crossing is an old crossing in that the only way it will get gates is if the crossing is upgraded see if you are reading new laws there is such a term called grandfather. which means that the crossings that you mention are not affected by the new laws until the crossing are updated, then they haft to fall into the guidelines that are in effect at that time. this is why you have such a hard time with reality in that if the railroads had to upgrade everytime something was changed they would never get cought up. and the cost would be out of site. plus not all changes would help all crossings just a few and hurt others. In short you need to do more research and find out what laws was in effect at the time that crossing was put in. that crossing may be under 1950 laws, and the laws of 1999 or 2000 dont apply.

or another way to put it is if you are driving a 1970 camaro or firebird or dodge charger you do not fall into the same air polution laws that new cars do and that is called grandfathering

[Anonymous]

Canada - Same type of thing, up here it's known as the "Grandfather claus"

The crossing that goes through town- had eblls and lights installed in 1961. under the laws of that day.. that was all there were. Sure their junky, go off when they shouldn't and coast more in maintnance then you can shake a stick at.

If i took a bulldoezer, and demolished the lights and the control box at that crossing-- demolished it into peices no bigger then sahrds.. a law says

A) if a crossing at one point had lights, and were demolished sue to vandilisim or nay sort of violent act.. they are to be replaced with THE SAME type tof system, however it must be up to code. In english - I buldozed the crossing with my make belive bulldozer, no one is allowed to say.. oh well we didn't really need them anywas, let's put a wooden poll with an X on the top of it.. can't do that. it must be same type of signaling, that follows the code of that day.

sometime in the 1980's All railroad crossings IN canada were froced to put Gates at crossings where
-There was more then one track.
that was the only reason. Some places have 60 trains go by in one day. on a single track at speeds up to 70 MPh and there aren't any gates.. jsut lights and bells.. Right or not.. c'est la vie.

Here missouri goes with his trash again about blah blah this.. and all that junk... this guy si relentless.

Kev.

[Anonymous]

I called my grandfather and he agreed that haveing the head end of one train and the tail end of another at a crossing at the same time is really dangerous and was a problem when he was a young whipper snapper.

[Anonymous]

Yuor grand father's alive?

i'm surpised he hasn't become one of thso 8%, or been one of the ones on the bike or whatever else you've been yampering on about.

You sure he's not part of one of your Statistics?

missouri, you hate younger people proving you wrong, don't ya pops?

cheers
kev.. what's my age again?

[Anonymous]

In the immortal words of Bugs, "What a Maroon."

[Mookie]

be careful...you are dating yourself! :)

[Anonymous]

Alright missouri, i'm sick of you... so as i was influanced by the movie "8 mile" i'm gonna take freestyle rapping out on you.

Missouri, whatever your real name is.. bob john ..jack..,

keep your stuff to yourself, because it's all crap,

posting your trash, why do you even dare?

isn't it obvious that NO ONE EVEN CARES?

Wheres the Adult thats supposed to be Monitoring you?

Or are they meerley part of your statistics too?

Yuo need help buddy, and your way out of line..

Can't you see.. no one wants to hear you whine!

This not done.. this isn't clear.. this is all you talk..

Think your so good, your far from ****-of-the-walk.

Until you know what it's like to Conduct a train,

maybe from these forums you should promptly refrain

All the trash you been putting up here..

hear that?... mommy's calling you for supper, dear.

that's right, loser, it's time for you to go..

Got a job, get a life... you frekin hobo

thats, it i'm otta hear i could insult you all night

but forget it.. i got better stuff to do. i gotta take flight.

/Rick

[Anonymous]

Its so easy to make that sick statement when its not your kid or Mom isnt't it? I suppose she was TRYING to kill herself?

[wabash1]

yes its real easy as i tought my kids to look listen and live they never even had a close call. and guess what my parents tought me to look listen and live. and guess what im still here. and if others would look listen and live then you would not have a thing to complain about, and other people would quit telling you we dont care.

[Anonymous]

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/TA/ProgMgt/Grants/Sight_Eng.pdf Before you get your kids or somebody elses killed there dip you need to let them know that where they are looking is NOT far enough 90% of the time and train whistles are only blown at 40% of the crossings.

[Anonymous]

Hence the LOOK part of that...you got it?..
it's not just

-- LISTEN and live
nor

-- LOOK and live

it's LOOK, LISTEN and LIVE...
sounds like you need to do a lot more lookin, bro.

Rick.. thats great.. wow... thats really funny.

kev says: L-O-O-K, listen and live

[wabash1]

as soon as i get my hearing back ill listen to your complaint on how i only blow for 40% of the crossings. out of 200 crossing i should hear fine when i get off the engine.

[Anonymous]

Your lookin ---not fur enough---Your listin' and not hearin---Your dead. The idiot didn't stop or stopped to long which is it?

[Jackflash]

40% ???? In Europe maybe, they dont blow the horn
like we in north america do, I blow the horn at all PUBLIC crossings gated or not, jackflash

[Anonymous]

What about the 58% of the crossings which are private and NO whistles? Many with hundreds of vehicles useing them a day.

[Anonymous]

your a frekin lawyer aren't you?

Look listen and live, is all i have to say for you.

i'd use the line ken used about the horn and blowing me

but he already used that..

you know what's blown? your brain.. you chump

kev

[wabash1]

the term private crossing is one that is used for single family residance. so unless ma and pa kettle are running drugs from the farm they dont use the crossing more than 2 or 3 times a day. Oh and to let you know there was people who decided to make a railroad fix the crossing in town the potholes were terrible and a safty factor. so after threats and law suit actions the railroad fix it for them. the put steel i-beams in the gound and a gaurdrail on that for both sides of the crossing. after everyone went to work in the morning, so wwhen they come home they had to find another way around the crossing home. just like they could have before. but they wanted to complain. that was in the 70s and the crossings are still closed today. in other words the railroad showed you that there is always a way around the crossing. and those are the only ones who dont need to look listen and live. they dont have a crossing to cross. ha ha ha ha ha.

[Anonymous]

Actraully i went to one of these so called private crossings yesturday

i noticed:

there was w histle post a 1/4 of a mile down each way of the track

There was a sign indicating STOP, LOOKm LSITEN and LIVE... the sign also indicated that this was a private crossing, and whomeevr so crossed it did it on their own account

The railroad saftey act, mandates all trains in Canada to whistlke at any section, be it private, public or any other place where objects frequently cross the tracks, including Train stations OFF the island of Montreal

The Canadian Railway Safety Act, 1996.

OOOHHHHHH missouri if you don't shut up, i'll shut you up!!

kev

[Anonymous]

Making threats and insulting people only shows ignorance, hatefulness and it makes you look like you are on the defensive side of the issue. Why is that? Do you think you and every one in the railroad busness is perfect? Last I knew no one or nothing is perfect. Malfunctions occur. People make mistakes (on both sides) Yes I agree there are people out there that will go around gate or not stop at unmarked crossing. I will not say that every one hit by a train is not at some fault. But on the other hand there are times they are not at fault and there is such a ru***o cover any imperfection on the railroads part. I always wondered why it is that if a individual is hit by a train the first thing that seems to come up is that the driver tried to go around the rails? It is publicized immediatly as just that the drivers fault. BUT when a train derails or collided with another train it is always publicized that it is under ivestigation and may take months for a report to be made. Would it be that by then the pubic is not longer thinking about it and all is forgotten? You know I am not saying that all accidents are the railroads fault but I am questioning why you all can't atmit that you and the railroad company is not perfect? What we have is two sides so busy bickering with each other and insulting other that what is important is not at all addressed. People are dying. It may just be a statistic to the railroad but it is some ones loved one. Is there no empathy out there for anyone else? Just the same as the employees. They are in danger and I am sure you all know how dangerous the rail yards are. Accidents still happen. May or may not be any ones fault but think of your family and hope they are treated with empathy if some thing where to happen to you. I expect to hear some rude mean replys to this and that would be sad because it would just show how uncaring and hardened people are to life. I am not attacking any one I am simply stating that no one is perfect and both sides need to admit when they are at fault instead of bickering.

[Anonymous]

good way to drive an iron spike, but you can't look at the world through rose colored glasses..


People may be dieng.. i have an idea: let's eliminate all Railway crossings so people can't cross the tracks...

Bull, u can't do that. 10% of the people who are killed, it wasn't their fault.. your making it sound 50/50 when its actaully 10/90.. how fool proof do those gates have to be... if you have a guy named missouri programming them.. the'd be going up and down non stop and the bell would chiming to the tune of jingle bells. and they're error rate would soar to 99%... but lets face it.. these gates are doing the best they can...
rememebr that number 10/90
90% of train crashes are bad judgement on the drivers fault

i'd love to agree with you.. but i can't.. sorry.

kev.

well a 10% error rate seems better then a 50% error rate..

There is nothing you can't make railroad lights idiot proof. or error proof.. the can be dang close.. but theres no such thing as error proof.

[Anonymous]

Actually Kev GE bought one of the main railroad signal companys and Westinghouse the other lately. These junk systems used actually use a unshielded railroad track as the electrical conducter so a mis fireing spark plug in a car hits the right frequency and the gates see a train comeing. The electic is arcing at the right frequency in the area the gates start doing exercises. There are other systems much better with 1/2 the price tag. In Europe they use a 4 code system like the gate is carrying four beepers so there are a lot less false activations and gate failures. Railroads are too cheap to retrain the naintainers to switch systems besides the fact that they don't want the yearly maintenance costs. The old cheaper to kill'em formula.

[Anonymous]

Actually I kind of like my rose colored glasses!!!
But the fact is people are dying I don't really care if it is 10% not at fault or 50%. And of course who's statistics are those? How do we really know the true statistics when it is easier to blame the dead person. They can't defend themselves. Reguardless if more people owned a pair of rose colored glasses the world would be a nicer place.

Any way I do wish we could eliminate cossing but I don't see how that is realisticly possible with out spending big bucks. I mean if we could have over passes at all major crossing it would be great. It would cost alot of money and we all know how money is the one thing no one likes to spend on things they don't feel immediately affects them. It takes actually loosing some one they love to a car/train collision to actually get some ones eyes to open up. I am sorry to say the number of these people are rising every day. I am ever so aware of how dangerous trains are. I don't trust lights and gates. I always slow down and look but I see people that trust them and wiz right on through. They are under the impression that the gates and lights always work!!! Well they don't I have seen first hand lights and gates go down for no reason. I have also seen the gates raise while a train is still going through a intersection. So what is it. Are people suposed to stop at all intersections even if there are gates or what? I have often wondered that. Is it the law to stop at ALL crossing or just one with out lights and/or gates or just ones with stop signs. IF there is not a stop sign are you just supposed to yeild or it is to be understood that you must stop? It seems the number of train/vehicle fatalities increase all the time. It will only be a matter of time before there are so many people that will want change that some thing will have to change. I have seen operation life saver at our school. I have listened to what they have said. I think educating kids on the safety of railroads is great but the fact is adults are the ones that need education.We have a crossing right through our little hick town and no way to avoid going over the tracks to get from one side of town to the other. Is it true that if some one walks across the tracks they are trespassing? I have heard that and oftened wonderd if it is true if so how does one get from one side of town to the other on foot? another thing I wanted to add while I am on a roll the metal boxes that have the light on them that is right by the intersecton. The one by the crossing has a light on it that shines in the direction of the driver. For two reasons it bothers me. One is that the light blinds me as I am looking before i cross when I look down the tracks to make sure no train is comming. the other reason is if my eyes catch the light just right it looks like a train could be comming and it startles me. Just a thought that those may not be in the best place. I have heard what the railroads train police with. They said that all the fatilities are due to stupid drivers. When I heard this It made me mad because I knew this was not true. So I wonder why they told this particular group of police officers this? It is not nice to call people stupid and really not nice to insult some one that is probably dead. IF they made a mistake I think they paid the ultamit price. If they did not make a mistake they are the biggest victims. Either way name calling does not solve the problem at hand. Adults need education (unbiased) and empathy needs to be used. I can honestly see where both sides get a little off the mark with blame.

[Anonymous]

I am not and have never been employed by the railroad but I have to wonder if you are just uninformed, misguided or have an agenda of another nature.

First, if traffic fatalities are so important to you that you will spend many hours corresponding on the internet because of a single accident involving a train and a bicycleist, when do you have time to correspond on other billboards about the thousands of other traffic accidents involving only privately owned vehicles where it is known that one party failed to fulfill their obligations and caused death? This indicates to me that you either have your priorities out of alignment or that you have an axe to grind against te railroad industry.

Also, you make broad statements that the railroad has the resources to fix the problem but simply choose not to do so. At a single crossing this may appear fair if only given a glance, but in reality such a program would involve (I don't know how) many crossings and a staggering amount of money that I don't think the railroad has. But you degrade the railroad as being cheap saying things as "How much is a human life worth!?" [not an exact quote, but I think this is the essence of it] I think it is fair to put that back on the individual who chose to use the particular "at grade" crossing instead of taking a longer way around over a "grade seperated" crossing. Wouldn't a few pennies in gas and a minute or two in traffic be worth saving their own life? I think the argument runs both ways; that is both sides wanting to save, and some balance with regard to safety vs. cost is obtained.

Your attacks on the railroad industry in North America are unwelcome. The railroads are saving us money by transporting our goods on their own right-of-way using their own motive power and maintanence resources for less per ton-mile than any other transportation system available. They reduce costs to the highway system. They reduce emisions blamed for everything from global warming to bad health. And for all that they do for us, they are much more likely to be savaged in the papers when a negligent driver tries to make up time when in a hurry by crossing tracks when they should know better.

I do agree that adults and children alike could use some education in this area. They should be taught the many benifits we enjoy because of the railroad. They should be taught why a train can not stop on a dime. They should be taught why trains can not practically be forced to creep along at slow speeds when there are at grade crossings. And everyone needs to be taught how dangerous the highways realy are so that a new era of traffic law enforcement is seen in this country. Children in North America are more likely to die as a result of a traffic accident involving one or more cars (no trains!) than any other cause. I appologize if I offended anyone but attacking trains and at-grade crossings is not productive. - Ed

[Anonymous]

prarierose, THe railroad is not Cheap! again.. here comes the 90/10 thing again... "How much is a human lofe worth?!" ask the 90% who died out of their own stupidity..

you know, for the record, i didn't need a degree in Electrical Railroad light Enginering and get paid 890 dollars an hour to tell you that the stupid crossing barriers don't always work... Just stop at each crossing before you go over.. act as if it were a stop sign! And Prarierose, I bet dimes to dollars you don't do that!

I DO! dang right i do.

when i'm driving my car, i stop at every crossing, look left, right, left... then proceed.. i couldn't crae if the King of Siam was behind me.. he'll have to wait his turn.. and guess what?? you may not belive this part.. i'm still alive to type to you today!

SO, for the 3rd millionth time:

STOP.... LOOK.....LISTEN.... AND LIVE!

read that over until it becomes clear.

[Anonymous]

Kev killed by 7 tractor trailers that ran over him from behind because he stopped at a non-activated signal. The LA freeway shuts down because all drivers stop because they don't trust the signals. Jeez Kev for the $150,000 WE tax-payers pay for these dinosaur crossing systems we should be able to use them without worrying about the heart defibrilator being charged at the fire house isn't putting out a signal makeing the gates go up and down shouldn't we? I can take my automatic garage door and build a frame for it and have a more fail safe system than is used.

[JoeKoh]

You must hurt missouri sitting on that pickett fence.On one hand you want to sue the railroads because people didn't LOOK LISTEN AND LIVE.And now you want to sue the railroads because people did?WE taxpayers paid for the roads too.If a truck driver hit me he would be cited for assured clear distance or worse.Your garage opener isn't full-proof either I just saw a recall notice on the news.The message is look listen live and I think you better go get the splinters out of your behind.
Remember look listen live
stay safe
joe

[Anonymous]

OK.. wow... Our archetechs aren't dumb up here. See, You would never see a crossing going through a Highway, YOU know why? if you guessed "illegal" your correct. so once again, i havn't traveled to LA, i wouldn't know theres a crossing smack in the middle of the interstate... and you know what? For my tax money... We canadians Get bridges built over the railraod instead of a meesely crossing.. you would never in your life see a crossing on a major interstate in Canada.. Never. if you were to ask anyonme up here.. they'd tell you thats the stupidest thing since the solar powered flashlight.

Now don't get me wrong missouri, I love GE. I'm a GE purchessor. GE makes great stuff. But simply what your stating is never going to happen to sumorize what you said, you want a FAIL-PROOF system. bull ***. it's never going to happen.. as long as their are crossings there are mistakes. and as uni-head Ed said, "the safest crossing is the one that's not there"

kev.

oh and note.. if crossings really actually do cross interstates, (personally, i think your brain has melted) i would avoid that crossing ot intire interstae.. THERES more then one way to get home!
My train.

and i say again just to pisss you off,
Getting form A--------to--------> B ON TIME TOO!,
Kev

[Anonymous]

Ed,
No offense but you took what I said and totally twisted it around. I never said any thing about bicycles. I also never said the rail road was the one to pay for all this. I realize that DOT and taxpayers also need to play a bigger part in the cost to upgrade cossings. If you noticed I said people don't like to spend money on things not immediatly affecting them. I did not say "the railroad" A matter of fact I did not even have the railroad in mind when I made that comment. So don't twist my words please. I also did note that there are people that go around the gates, did I not??? So how did you manage to call turn that into I blame the railroad for all the accidents???
Did I not also say that we need the railroads and the railroads need us? What you call a attack was simply trying to clarify some things that you avoided all together. All you did was turn things around and not answer any of my questions. If you never have worked for the railroad why are you spending so much time on this site. Why is it that people who are infatuated with the railroad can come on here and voice there opinions and concers when some one that has concerns and questions can't? I will be the first one to admit there are alot of things I do not understand about how railroads operate. I was asking honest questions but instead of answering my questions to help inform me you just insult me. You know I do think a human life is worth alot. I am concerned with all kinds of issues. So what if I have a personal interest with crossing. It should not matter what my personal interest. The fact is I am not "against the railroad" it is not me vs. them. Do you think I am that stupid. I know how powerful the railroad industry is. They could stomp me in a heart beat. I am for everyone-Public people, local state and federal government and railroad all work together to improve public safety. Not only at the cossings themselves but also in education and yes I am still sticking by the unbiased education. I also know that trains can not stop on a dime. I am not saying that they don't blow their whistles I am not blaming conductors for any thing. What I am say is it would be nice to make them safer for everyone by every one. I am sorry if you misinterpreted my post. You mention going around the tracks well where I live the tracks go through town and there is not way around them. We have no underpasses no alternate ways around them so it is not like we have a choice. Not every one has a choice. Believe me if I had a alternate route to take I would. And as for your neglegent drivers there you are attacking people when not all of them had the agenda to get across the tracks in a hurry. That makes you just as bad as me or any one else that may blame the rail road for all the deaths (which I did not) You don't like it when the railroad is blamed for all the deaths and people don't like it when they are always blames either. It goes both ways. No offense.

[Anonymous]

Kev,
How do you know what I do? As for cheap why don't you read what I already posted to Ed. Why do you guys jump the gun and get so defensive? Did it ever cross your mind that I was not saying the railroad should pay for all the upgrades. Maybe you should reread that part and think of it not from the defensive side. I really don't care how much you make. You think because you make more then I do that you are smart and I am stupid? That you stop and I don't? Well I am a nurse and I may not make the money you do but I love life and respect it. I honestly live by the rule hurt not living thing. I volunteer my time the the children in my are. I do care. So to answer one of my questions you are saying that you should stop at cossings even if they have gates? I do but I don't think very many other people realize they should to. I think they trust them because they don't have a degree in electrical enginering and they don't hear how they can malfuntion because according to you and many others the accidents are the drivers faults because they don't "STOP...LOOK...LISTEN...AND LIVE" And when you hear of a crossing accident it is said that they went around the rails leaving the impression that if there are gates there that must be the reason because they would not malfunction. You know this is not a attack at any one it is simply stating that the education need improvement Not just through railroad companies but in drivers education and any where else peoplel will learn traffic laws. I know no one wants to admit some thing was their fault. It would mean being liable and that cost money. It is human nature to cover wrong doing especially when money is involed but this is snowballing and eventually some thing will have to change and I think it would be better for every one involed (not just the railroad) to try to decrease accidents before it is out of hand for both sides. I mean how much do we spend in taxes now that we have no clue what it goes to? government workers to give them selves raises when the working man and women are working their butts off to support their families and still struggle. People with addictions to drugs, we pay for them to affort them instead of paying for their rehab. I think there are ways that money could be utilized for safety. How much do tax payers pay to have the highways worked on for thier safety? Same thing for crossings it is for safety all the same but people have to admit their is a problem to begin with. Many people don't realize it until it is to late and they have lost their mother, father, sibling or child.If people don't realize it is a problem they don't feel any thing needs to be fixed wheather is is education or upgrades to unsafe cossings. It needs to quit being them against us and every one work together to improve what benifits us all.