I.C. Passenger Trains

[schlimm]

CSSHEGEWISCH

CG E8A's 811-812 were painted in full IC colors and also had the green diamond on the nose.  They were regular visitors to Chicago on the "City of Miami".  I also remember seeing heavyweight coaches on the "Seminole" in full IC colors lettered for Atlantic Coast Line, this was some time in 1969 or 1970.

 

I still have a antimacasscar lettered "SCL" from its service on an IC train in 1968,  probably the Seminole, although it might have been the City.

[IowaFrisian]

[quote user="Los Angeles Rams Guy"]

 

 

CSSHEGEWISCH

Also consider the Iowa line. IC ran the Land O' Corn, which started out as an ACF Motorailer and grew to a small coach streamliner, between Chicago and Waterloo, IA and the Hawkeye, which was an overnighter with a lot of mail/express, between Chicago and Sioux City, IA.

 

 

 

Oh yeah....I remember the "Hawkeye" well; coming into Manchester, Iowa westbound late at night (around midnight/1 A.M.).

 I'd wake up in the middle of the night hearing the horn of the Hawkeye blowing for the crossing in Sinclair, Iowa. I'd sneak outside to just watch it speed through our tiny little hamlet. I remember the horn sounded "different" from that of the numerous freights running through or servicing our neighboring grain elevator. 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Further comment on the uniformity of passenger train colors.  Way back in my high school days, I used to ride the South Shore from 115th Street to Hegewisch to go home after school.  While waiting for my train, the "Campus" (later the "Illini") would pass and usually had 3-4 flatcars with Flexi-Vans for mail on the back end.  The Flexi-Vans were also painted in brown and orange with a yellow trim stripe.

[Deggesty]

CSSHEGEWISCH

CG E8A's 811-812 were painted in full IC colors and also had the green diamond on the nose.  They were regular visitors to Chicago on the "City of Miami".  I also remember seeing heavyweight coaches on the "Seminole" in full IC colors lettered for Atlantic Coast Line, this was some time in 1969 or 1970.

In the summer of 1961, I watched the CG E8's bring the Seminole into Columbus, Ga., from Chicago; they were cut off and then took the northbound Seminole out after it came in from Jacksonville. CG E's (in CG colors, of course) took the train on to Albany.

The green diamond on the engine front was lettered, of course, "Central of Georgia", and not "Illinois Central."

Also, in 1961, you could see City of Miami cars from all four roads. I stayd up late one night and saw both the northbound and southbound trains.

Johnny

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

CG E8A's 811-812 were painted in full IC colors and also had the green diamond on the nose.  They were regular visitors to Chicago on the "City of Miami".  I also remember seeing heavyweight coaches on the "Seminole" in full IC colors lettered for Atlantic Coast Line, this was some time in 1969 or 1970.

[Deggesty]

BaltACD

It was common practice 'back in the day' for all the participating carriers on a service to have some ownership interests in the cars that supplied the service....all decorated in the theme of the service.  The carriers you mention all participated in the City of Miami service and owned some of the equipment.  Likewise the California Zephyr had equipment owned by WP, DRGW and CBQ within it's consists.

The IC, under Wayne Johnston, was very particular about the uniformity of the coloring of its mainline passenger trains (it did allow Pullman green cars on the Meridian-Shreveport train). I recall seeing a Lackawanna sleeper on the Pannyma (as the IC men in South Mississippi called the train) that could not be told from an IC car unless you looked carefully. Also, when the IC ran NP domes on the Panama and City of Miiami in the winter, they were painted to blend in with the rest of the train--and repainted, by the IC, to NP colors before being returned home.

I regret that I did not see a particular northbound run of the Panama in 1964--after a hurricane made it impossible for the train to run north one day, and Pullman had to use what equipment it find to substitute for the set that did not make it to Chicago in time to go south. It must have been interesting to see the mixture onthe IC.

It was not just cars that were painted the IC colors, some CG engines were also painted to blend in. I am glad that the IC did not repeat the original paint scheme of the City of Miami.

At least one RF&P sleeper, that was used in New York-Norfolk service, was painted Tuscan red, to blend in with the N&W colors. Other RF&P (and PRR) cars that were in NY-Fla service were painted to blend in with either the ACL or SAL cars.

I could go on and on, describing the Overland trains and others, but this should show that the practice was widespread.

Johnny

[BaltACD]

BLS53

I recall some of the cars on the City of Miami and Seminole, having C of G, ACL, or FEC lettering. They were in IC colors though.

It was common practice 'back in the day' for all the participating carriers on a service to have some ownership interests in the cars that supplied the service....all decorated in the theme of the service.  The carriers you mention all participated in the City of Miami service and owned some of the equipment.  Likewise the California Zephyr had equipment owned by WP, DRGW and CBQ within it's consists.

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

CSSHEGEWISCH

Also consider the Iowa line. IC ran the Land O' Corn, which started out as an ACF Motorailer and grew to a small coach streamliner, between Chicago and Waterloo, IA and the Hawkeye, which was an overnighter with a lot of mail/express, between Chicago and Sioux City, IA.

 

Oh yeah....I remember the "Hawkeye" well; coming into Manchester, Iowa westbound late at night (around midnight/1 A.M.).

[BLS53]

I recall some of the cars on the City of Miami and Seminole, having C of G, ACL, or FEC lettering. They were in IC colors though.

[BLS53]

The Irvin Cobb only ran as far as Fulton. The sleepers were set out there. Memphis would have worked going southbound, but I can't imagine a Louisville passenger going to Memphis to proceed north to Chicago. Louisville to Chicago is less than 300 miles, and other direct service was availablle in that era.

Most of the mainline connecting passengers from the Cobb, came from the Paducah area. At one time there was a line between Paducah and Cairo, and there was connecting service for The Panama Limited from Paducah, similar to the St. Louis-Carbondale service. Sometime in the 40's or early 50's, a wooden trestle on this line burned near Barlow KY. The passenger service had been discontinued sometime prior to this. The IC never restored the line. The construction of the Edgewood Cutoff, had made access to the mainline from Paducah unnecessary. 

[cnw4001]

It won't be a specific as the texts suggested in earlier posts but you might want to check your local library for a DVD.

Green Frog's Volume 4 The Best of Passenger Trains, The East contains a segment on the IC trains. Quite interesting.

[ZephyrOverland]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Thanks for the added information. The Gulf Coast Special did have through cars to Miami, in fact I think I once rode an overnight ACL sleeper between Jacksonville and Miami that had come down from NY on the Gulf Coast Special. I cannot be sure that there were through coaches, and there was no diner or lounge car on the train, just get aboard, go to sleep and wake up in the Miami Station (which at that time was the Seabord Station used by both railroads.) I remember the ride because the conductor liked to kid people and actually somehow pinched me in the shoulder through the green curtain! I was lowering the roomette bed at the time so my rear end was protruding into the aisle, and he could have done worse if he had wanted to! He was a friend of Jim Masters, the ACL dining car steward whom I had first met when aboard his diner at age 12 in 1944.

I did a review of several Official Guides from the early 1960's and the Gulf Coast Special was never a through NY-Miami train. When the FEC strike began, in January 1963, the Havana Special was only a NY-Jacksonville train. At this time there was still an overnight FEC Jacksonville-Miami run which approximated the Havana Special schedule on the FEC, but it had only Jacksonville-Miami coaches and sleeper. That train was called the East Coast Special. The NY-Jacksonville Havana Special was renamed the Gulf Coast Special on April 29, 1964.

[MP173]

The IC mainline thru Illinois was a 100 mph territory, at least from Champaign to Centralia, due to ATS hardware. The City of New Orleans covered the 125 miles between the two division points in 100 minutes, an average of 74.8 miles, INCLUDING TWO STOPS, in Mattoon and Effingham.

That's moving.

ed

[daveklepper]

Thanks for the added information. The Gulf Coast Special did have through cars to Miami, in fact I think I once rode an overnight ACL sleeper between Jacksonville and Miami that had come down from NY on the Gulf Coast Special. I cannot be sure that there were through coaches, and there was no diner or lounge car on the train, just get aboard, go to sleep and wake up in the Miami Station (which at that time was the Seabord Station used by both railroads.) I remember the ride because the conductor liked to kid people and actually somehow pinched me in the shoulder through the green curtain! I was lowering the roomette bed at the time so my rear end was protruding into the aisle, and he could have done worse if he had wanted to! He was a friend of Jim Masters, the ACL dining car steward whom I had first met when aboard his diner at age 12 in 1944.

[ZephyrOverland]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper


The City of Miami and the Floridian served both coasts of Florida, with the Miami equipment going through Orlando and the Tampa equipment through Ocala, the split being done at Jacksonville. Possibly only during the summer, but maybe later year around, south of Jacksonville, this equipment was joined by equipment from Washington and New York, but which train it was escapes me, possibly the Gulf Coast Limited, what had been the Havana Special before Castro.

The Chicago cars were carried on the West Coast Champion to Tampa. The train you mentioned, the Gulf Coast Limited, was actually the Gulf Coast Special. By the time the train was renamed from the Havana Special, it became primarily a New York-Jacksonville train with Jacksonville-Tampa connecting service.

There was a Gulf Coast Limited, but that ACL train ran in the 20's and 30's.

[daveklepper]

I rode most of the trains described and the information is accurate except:

The route from Jacksonville south to Miami after the FEC strike began was ACL through Sanford and Orlando to Auberndale, and then Seaboard Auburndale south to Miami. All the trains that used the ACL north of Jacksonville and the FEC south of Jacksonville were rerouted this way plus all the Chicago trains, regardless of routing north Jacksonville. The Seaboard's own service continued as before with Miami and Tampa-St. Pete sections separating at Wildwood. A few ACL west coast Florida trains ran through Orlando to Tampa, but others used the more western ACL line through Ocala. The City of Miami and the Floridian served both coasts of Florida, with the Miami equipment going through Orlando and the Tampa equipment through Ocala, the split being done at Jacksonville. Possibly only during the summer, but maybe later year around, south of Jacksonville, this equipment was joined by equipment from Washington and New York, but which train it was escapes me, possibly the Gulf Coast Limited, what had been the Havana Special before Castro.

[ZephyrOverland]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lehman

It looks like the 'City of Miami' was all coach, which surprises me since the train took over 24 hours to make a run between Chicago and Miami! The 'City of New Orleans' appears to be all coach too. Again, it seems this train would have some sleepers since it was such a long trip.

The City of Miami and City of New Orleans were established at a time when the railroad industry realized that they were permanently losing Pullman business to other modes of transport and deluxe trains catering to the coach passenger was the way to go. Yes, the City of Miami took about 24 hours, but it was hours faster than what was offered previously and passengers on these trains were treated to new equipment and additional services which were not offered in any great amount to coach passengers in the past.

The City of Miami received sleepers in 1949 soon after the IC discontinued a seasonal heavyweight Florida train, the Sunchaser. By this time, the City of Miami name and service was popular with Florida bound passengers and through the miracle of diesel-electric power, longer trains could be operated. As a result, the City of Miami was doing the work of two trains, and the IC was realizing the cost savings of operating one train.

As for the City of New Orleans, it also operated on a schedule which was hours faster than the service it replaced. Also, keep in mind that the faster schedule of the City of New Orleans allowed the servicing of several markets; Chicago-New Orleans, Chicago-Champaign-Carbondale (the college trade), Chicago-Memphis and Memphis-New Orleans.

[ZephyrOverland]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dmoore74

QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan

True the CITY OF MIAMI began life as an all coach streamliner running every third day but by 1952 it also carried sleeping cars and operated every other day as a second consist was added. It was an interesting streamliner as the sleeping cars were carried forward of the coaches. Sleeping cars were first added during WW II and these were heavyweights. By 1952 the train was carrying lightweight sleeping cars and operating every other day.

The CITY OF NEW ORLEANS was always a coach only train until operated by Amtrak. Amtrak added sleeping cars and ran the train as an overnight schedule.

The PANAMA LIMITED was always an all Pullman train until 1967 when coaches were added but in the timetable they were listed as a separate train the MAGNOLIA STAR. Upon closer examination of the timetable one noted that the PANAMA LIMITED and MAGNOLIA STAR operated on the same schedule. The MAGNOLIA STAR part of the consist was a coach and Tavern Chair car that served economy meals.

IIRC Amtrak's original Chicago - New Orleans service was called the Panama Limited. It was later renamed The City of New Orleans after the song of the same name became popular.

Actually, the City of New Orleans was the original Chicago-New Orleans service operated by Amtrak when it began. Like the IC version, it ran on a day schedule. Unfortunately, with a Chicago arrival of 12:30am and a New Orleans arrival of 1:30am, Amtrak quickly realized that the City of New Orleans daytime service structure was not the way to go. So, on the November 14, 1971 timetable change, the Panama Limited name and its overnight schedule returned.

[Anonymous]

I thank all who provided information on I.C. passenger trains - I really do appreciate it, and you answered my questions. 'Eastside,' I have the book NIGHT TRAINS, but missed the answers to my questions. I found them with a second look - thanks. 'Greyhounds,' I also have the book I.C. STREAMLINERS 1936-1946, but haven't read it yet. I've just moved it up to the top of my 'to read' list. Carl

[dmoore74]

QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan

True the CITY OF MIAMI began life as an all coach streamliner running every third day but by 1952 it also carried sleeping cars and operated every other day as a second consist was added. It was an interesting streamliner as the sleeping cars were carried forward of the coaches. Sleeping cars were first added during WW II and these were heavyweights. By 1952 the train was carrying lightweight sleeping cars and operating every other day.

The CITY OF NEW ORLEANS was always a coach only train until operated by Amtrak. Amtrak added sleeping cars and ran the train as an overnight schedule.

The PANAMA LIMITED was always an all Pullman train until 1967 when coaches were added but in the timetable they were listed as a separate train the MAGNOLIA STAR. Upon closer examination of the timetable one noted that the PANAMA LIMITED and MAGNOLIA STAR operated on the same schedule. The MAGNOLIA STAR part of the consist was a coach and Tavern Chair car that served economy meals.

IIRC Amtrak's original Chicago - New Orleans service was called the Panama Limited. It was later renamed The City of New Orleans after the song of the same name became popular.

[MP173]

My second half of discussion of Illinois Central Passenger trains was posted as a new topic, and is under "back from the YMCA".

sorry.

ed

[passengerfan]

True the CITY OF MIAMI began life as an all coach streamliner running every third day but by 1952 it also carried sleeping cars and operated every other day as a second consist was added. It was an interesting streamliner as the sleeping cars were carried forward of the coaches. Sleeping cars were first added during WW II and these were heavyweights. By 1952 the train was carrying lightweight sleeping cars and operating every other day.

The CITY OF NEW ORLEANS was always a coach only train until operated by Amtrak. Amtrak added sleeping cars and ran the train as an overnight schedule.

The PANAMA LIMITED was always an all Pullman train until 1967 when coaches were added but in the timetable they were listed as a separate train the MAGNOLIA STAR. Upon closer examination of the timetable one noted that the PANAMA LIMITED and MAGNOLIA STAR operated on the same schedule. The MAGNOLIA STAR part of the consist was a coach and Tavern Chair car that served economy meals.

[greyhounds]

I would like to suggest "Illinois Central Streamliners 1936-1946" by Paul M. Somers. 1995. TLC Publishing, Lynchburg, VA 24503-9711. It covers the Green Diamond, Motorrailers, City of Miami (E3 and all coach to start with) and of course, the Pamama.

Decent book.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murray

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

The Florida East Coast Railway operated the City of Miami between Jacksonville to Miami.

FEC was the Florida connecting carrier for all Miami bound passenger traffic except for Seaboard, which had their own route between Jacksonville and Miami.

After the 1961 FEC Strike the Seaboard route became the only passenger route from Jacksonville to Miami and remains so to this day.

There is currently talk about establishing commuter rail service between W.Palm Beach and Miami on the FEC route, in addition to the commuter rail service that currently exists between W.Palm Beach and Miami on the former Seaboard route that is owned by the commuter authority and operated and maintained by CSX.

The FEC strike started in 1963.

Thank you....CRS and old age strike again.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

The Florida East Coast Railway operated the City of Miami between Jacksonville to Miami.

FEC was the Florida connecting carrier for all Miami bound passenger traffic except for Seaboard, which had their own route between Jacksonville and Miami.

After the 1961 FEC Strike the Seaboard route became the only passenger route from Jacksonville to Miami and remains so to this day.

There is currently talk about establishing commuter rail service between W.Palm Beach and Miami on the FEC route, in addition to the commuter rail service that currently exists between W.Palm Beach and Miami on the former Seaboard route that is owned by the commuter authority and operated and maintained by CSX.

The FEC strike started in 1963.

[MP173]

My 1952 Official Guide shows a number of IC passenger trains. There were several lines which saw service:

1. The Chicago to New Orleans corridor saw a number of trains. There were four daily trains each way between the two cities...Panama Limited, City of New Orleans, The Louisiane, and the Southern Express ran southbound. Northbound trains out of New Orleans were Panama, City, The Creole, and an unnamed train 22 which ran to Memphis, making 48 stops (48 STOPS!) between the two cities. To compare the times, it left 30 minutes after Panama...530pm vs 500pm. The Panama was in Memphis at 1155pm, which 22 arrived at 905am the next morning.

The "City" was all coaches, plus diner. Panama was sleeper service, with sleepers picked up at Carbondale (from St. Louis) and at Memphis (picked up at 218am, but ready for occupancy at 930pm). The Louisiane carried sleepers, coaches, parlor car, and diner. It picked up coaches and sleepers at Memphis from Louisville off of the Irvin S. Cobb. The Southern Express was a 35 hour coach only train, mainly stopping at every small town along the way.

Also on the mainline were trains 31 and 32 between Chicago and Champaign, coach trains, covering the 126 miles in 4 hours and stopping (flagging) at every community.

Florida trains on the mainline branched off at Fulton. The City of Miami was an every third day train with sleepers, coaches, diners, and observation car. A daily train, The Seminole carried coaches, diner, and sleepers. Both trains picked up coaches and sleepers at Carbondale from St. Louis.

An interesting St. Louis/Louisville to Memphis train ran. From St. Louis it was train 15, The Chickasaw which departed St. Louis at 1117pm. Over in Louisville, train 103, the aforementioned Irvin S. Cobb departed at 910pm. The trains combined at Fulton, Ky between 420 and 445am and then continued onward to Memphis, arriving at 710am. Businessmen from both St. Louis and Louisville could ride in sleepers (occupancy in St. Louis at 930pm). Coaches were also on the train, but NO DINER. Eat before you board.

Also there was a daily Kentucky Cardinal running between Louisville to Fulton, coaches only...pack your meal as there was no diner.

More to follow, off to pickup the number 2 son at the YMCA>

ed

[gabe]

Don't forget the "Green Diamond."

Gabe

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Also consider the Iowa line. IC ran the Land O' Corn, which started out as an ACF Motorailer and grew to a small coach streamliner, between Chicago and Waterloo, IA and the Hawkeye, which was an overnighter with a lot of mail/express, between Chicago and Sioux City, IA.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

The Florida East Coast Railway operated the City of Miami between Jacksonville to Miami.

FEC was the Florida connecting carrier for all Miami bound passenger traffic except for Seaboard, which had their own route between Jacksonville and Miami.

After the 1961 FEC Strike the Seaboard route became the only passenger route from Jacksonville to Miami and remains so to this day.

There is currently talk about establishing commuter rail service between W.Palm Beach and Miami on the FEC route, in addition to the commuter rail service that currently exists between W.Palm Beach and Miami on the former Seaboard route that is owned by the commuter authority and operated and maintained by CSX.