QUOTE: Originally posted by sierrarr A little off subjejet, but why did the government nix the SP/ATSF merger?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply PNWRMNM Member sinceMay 2003 From: US 2,593 posts Posted by PNWRMNM on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:59 AM BNSF Yes, the Rock Island was the first line between Council Bluffs and Chicago. By the early 1880's you had the RI, CNW, and CBQ (using modern names). They formed the Iowa Pool, the one successful pool of the era. Then things got messy. If you are interested in this there is a book titled The Iowa Pool that you can probably get on inter-library loan. Subject is also dealt with in biography of Jay Gould who as President of UP tried to break the pool. By some time early in the 20th Century the CNW had become the favored route, as shown by its route being mostly, if not entirely double track. The junction at Fremont also favored the CNW by keeping freight interchange out of the congested Omaha and Council Bluffs terminals. I am not familiar with details of CNW's attainment of favored connection status. Perhaps someone can steer you to some sources. By 1980 or so CNW dominated the Chicago-Omaha route and when UP went shopping the obvious buy was CNW, even though they had to take the rest of the railroad to get what they wanted, which was Omaha-Chicago and the Poder River basin coal line. Mac Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:39 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed UPRR owned a CONSIDERABLE amount of CNWRR stock. [:)] Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. [ I know that. But that doesn't anwer my Question. Allan. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:38 AM UPRR owned a CONSIDERABLE amount of CNWRR stock. [:)] Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:25 AM But wasn't the Rock Island the "true" Transcon route? And not the CNW,Right? I mean the Rock Island was the first Railroad into Council Bluffs wasn't it? Allan. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 4:51 AM A little off subjejet, but why did the government nix the SP/ATSF merger? Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, December 8, 2005 1:42 AM Well Allan, In the first half of the 1990s it was the UP that was well run and had lots of ca***o spend, not BN. C&NW's entry into the Powder River Basin was through the WRPI, of which UP held the mortgage. C&NW's main from Fremont to Chicago was carrying mostly UP traffic. UP held an option on the IAIS and could have rebuilt it with double track and CTC, and perhaps added the EJ&E if they wanted. C&NW needed UP, but UP did not need the C&NW. If BN won a bidding war with UP for the C&NW (not very likely), they still would have needed government approval (again, not very likely). Why would BN pay a high price for C&NW, with most of the traffic going elsewhere ? BN would have had to borrow the money for the purchase, and there was no way they could repay the loan, pay the interest and still make a profit. I would speculate that would have driven BN stock down far enough to anger a lot of stockholders, thus endangering the jobs of BN's top management. UP won the right to buy the CRI&P in 1974, but the Rock had fallen to far into disrepair by then. UP does have 2,000 of the 4,000 miles of the Rock that is still around, from the Twin Cities to Fort Worth and Santa Rosa, plus the corn lines. Dale Reply miniwyo Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Rock Springs Wy. 1,967 posts Posted by miniwyo on Thursday, December 8, 2005 12:13 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by wgnrr When I go railfanning on the UP's Adam's line, I would rather see UP engines than BNSF. BNSF doesn't have a 3985, a 844 or a DDA40X, or a E9 set or a big yellow passenger car set, or ex-CNW cabooses on the back of their locals, and a lot of old wooden ex-CNW depots, and.... I actually see Mopac cabooses on our locals, every now and then we get an odd UP caboose though. RJ "Something hidden, Go and find it. Go and look behind the ranges, Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go." The Explorers - Rudyard Kipling http://sweetwater-photography.com/ Reply wgnrr Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Wisconsin 735 posts Posted by wgnrr on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 10:10 PM When I go railfanning on the UP's Adam's line, I would rather see UP engines than BNSF. BNSF doesn't have a 3985, a 844 or a DDA40X, or a E9 set or a big yellow passenger car set, or ex-CNW cabooses on the back of their locals, and a lot of old wooden ex-CNW depots, and.... My Photo Albums: http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k32/martin_lumber/ http://tinyurl.com/3yzns6 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:56 PM I still think the UP should have taken over the Rock Island Railroad. Allan. Reply Edit MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:22 PM BN already had a route to Chicago from Omaha. UP also had a substancial financial position (I think) in CNW. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:48 PM Chicago Northern [;)] Reply Edit jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,898 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:39 PM Without the UP, the CNW would've been gone a long time ago. Jeff Reply coborn35 Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Duluth,Minnesota,USA 4,015 posts Posted by coborn35 on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:25 PM Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt it more of a takeover? Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..." The Missabe Road: Safety First Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Why the UPRR and not BN? Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 6:00 PM Why did the CNW merge with the UP instead of mergering with the BN RAILROAD? Allan. Reply Edit Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply PNWRMNM Member sinceMay 2003 From: US 2,593 posts Posted by PNWRMNM on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:59 AM BNSF Yes, the Rock Island was the first line between Council Bluffs and Chicago. By the early 1880's you had the RI, CNW, and CBQ (using modern names). They formed the Iowa Pool, the one successful pool of the era. Then things got messy. If you are interested in this there is a book titled The Iowa Pool that you can probably get on inter-library loan. Subject is also dealt with in biography of Jay Gould who as President of UP tried to break the pool. By some time early in the 20th Century the CNW had become the favored route, as shown by its route being mostly, if not entirely double track. The junction at Fremont also favored the CNW by keeping freight interchange out of the congested Omaha and Council Bluffs terminals. I am not familiar with details of CNW's attainment of favored connection status. Perhaps someone can steer you to some sources. By 1980 or so CNW dominated the Chicago-Omaha route and when UP went shopping the obvious buy was CNW, even though they had to take the rest of the railroad to get what they wanted, which was Omaha-Chicago and the Poder River basin coal line. Mac Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:39 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed UPRR owned a CONSIDERABLE amount of CNWRR stock. [:)] Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. [ I know that. But that doesn't anwer my Question. Allan. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:38 AM UPRR owned a CONSIDERABLE amount of CNWRR stock. [:)] Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:25 AM But wasn't the Rock Island the "true" Transcon route? And not the CNW,Right? I mean the Rock Island was the first Railroad into Council Bluffs wasn't it? Allan. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 4:51 AM A little off subjejet, but why did the government nix the SP/ATSF merger? Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, December 8, 2005 1:42 AM Well Allan, In the first half of the 1990s it was the UP that was well run and had lots of ca***o spend, not BN. C&NW's entry into the Powder River Basin was through the WRPI, of which UP held the mortgage. C&NW's main from Fremont to Chicago was carrying mostly UP traffic. UP held an option on the IAIS and could have rebuilt it with double track and CTC, and perhaps added the EJ&E if they wanted. C&NW needed UP, but UP did not need the C&NW. If BN won a bidding war with UP for the C&NW (not very likely), they still would have needed government approval (again, not very likely). Why would BN pay a high price for C&NW, with most of the traffic going elsewhere ? BN would have had to borrow the money for the purchase, and there was no way they could repay the loan, pay the interest and still make a profit. I would speculate that would have driven BN stock down far enough to anger a lot of stockholders, thus endangering the jobs of BN's top management. UP won the right to buy the CRI&P in 1974, but the Rock had fallen to far into disrepair by then. UP does have 2,000 of the 4,000 miles of the Rock that is still around, from the Twin Cities to Fort Worth and Santa Rosa, plus the corn lines. Dale Reply miniwyo Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Rock Springs Wy. 1,967 posts Posted by miniwyo on Thursday, December 8, 2005 12:13 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by wgnrr When I go railfanning on the UP's Adam's line, I would rather see UP engines than BNSF. BNSF doesn't have a 3985, a 844 or a DDA40X, or a E9 set or a big yellow passenger car set, or ex-CNW cabooses on the back of their locals, and a lot of old wooden ex-CNW depots, and.... I actually see Mopac cabooses on our locals, every now and then we get an odd UP caboose though. RJ "Something hidden, Go and find it. Go and look behind the ranges, Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go." The Explorers - Rudyard Kipling http://sweetwater-photography.com/ Reply wgnrr Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Wisconsin 735 posts Posted by wgnrr on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 10:10 PM When I go railfanning on the UP's Adam's line, I would rather see UP engines than BNSF. BNSF doesn't have a 3985, a 844 or a DDA40X, or a E9 set or a big yellow passenger car set, or ex-CNW cabooses on the back of their locals, and a lot of old wooden ex-CNW depots, and.... My Photo Albums: http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k32/martin_lumber/ http://tinyurl.com/3yzns6 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:56 PM I still think the UP should have taken over the Rock Island Railroad. Allan. Reply Edit MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:22 PM BN already had a route to Chicago from Omaha. UP also had a substancial financial position (I think) in CNW. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:48 PM Chicago Northern [;)] Reply Edit jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,898 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:39 PM Without the UP, the CNW would've been gone a long time ago. Jeff Reply coborn35 Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Duluth,Minnesota,USA 4,015 posts Posted by coborn35 on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:25 PM Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt it more of a takeover? Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..." The Missabe Road: Safety First Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Why the UPRR and not BN? Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 6:00 PM Why did the CNW merge with the UP instead of mergering with the BN RAILROAD? Allan. Reply Edit Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed UPRR owned a CONSIDERABLE amount of CNWRR stock. [:)] Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. [ I know that. But that doesn't anwer my Question. Allan. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:38 AM UPRR owned a CONSIDERABLE amount of CNWRR stock. [:)] Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:25 AM But wasn't the Rock Island the "true" Transcon route? And not the CNW,Right? I mean the Rock Island was the first Railroad into Council Bluffs wasn't it? Allan. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 4:51 AM A little off subjejet, but why did the government nix the SP/ATSF merger? Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, December 8, 2005 1:42 AM Well Allan, In the first half of the 1990s it was the UP that was well run and had lots of ca***o spend, not BN. C&NW's entry into the Powder River Basin was through the WRPI, of which UP held the mortgage. C&NW's main from Fremont to Chicago was carrying mostly UP traffic. UP held an option on the IAIS and could have rebuilt it with double track and CTC, and perhaps added the EJ&E if they wanted. C&NW needed UP, but UP did not need the C&NW. If BN won a bidding war with UP for the C&NW (not very likely), they still would have needed government approval (again, not very likely). Why would BN pay a high price for C&NW, with most of the traffic going elsewhere ? BN would have had to borrow the money for the purchase, and there was no way they could repay the loan, pay the interest and still make a profit. I would speculate that would have driven BN stock down far enough to anger a lot of stockholders, thus endangering the jobs of BN's top management. UP won the right to buy the CRI&P in 1974, but the Rock had fallen to far into disrepair by then. UP does have 2,000 of the 4,000 miles of the Rock that is still around, from the Twin Cities to Fort Worth and Santa Rosa, plus the corn lines. Dale Reply miniwyo Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Rock Springs Wy. 1,967 posts Posted by miniwyo on Thursday, December 8, 2005 12:13 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by wgnrr When I go railfanning on the UP's Adam's line, I would rather see UP engines than BNSF. BNSF doesn't have a 3985, a 844 or a DDA40X, or a E9 set or a big yellow passenger car set, or ex-CNW cabooses on the back of their locals, and a lot of old wooden ex-CNW depots, and.... I actually see Mopac cabooses on our locals, every now and then we get an odd UP caboose though. RJ "Something hidden, Go and find it. Go and look behind the ranges, Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go." The Explorers - Rudyard Kipling http://sweetwater-photography.com/ Reply wgnrr Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Wisconsin 735 posts Posted by wgnrr on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 10:10 PM When I go railfanning on the UP's Adam's line, I would rather see UP engines than BNSF. BNSF doesn't have a 3985, a 844 or a DDA40X, or a E9 set or a big yellow passenger car set, or ex-CNW cabooses on the back of their locals, and a lot of old wooden ex-CNW depots, and.... My Photo Albums: http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k32/martin_lumber/ http://tinyurl.com/3yzns6 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:56 PM I still think the UP should have taken over the Rock Island Railroad. Allan. Reply Edit MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:22 PM BN already had a route to Chicago from Omaha. UP also had a substancial financial position (I think) in CNW. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:48 PM Chicago Northern [;)] Reply Edit jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,898 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:39 PM Without the UP, the CNW would've been gone a long time ago. Jeff Reply coborn35 Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Duluth,Minnesota,USA 4,015 posts Posted by coborn35 on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:25 PM Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt it more of a takeover? Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..." The Missabe Road: Safety First Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Why the UPRR and not BN? Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 6:00 PM Why did the CNW merge with the UP instead of mergering with the BN RAILROAD? Allan. Reply Edit Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. [
Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:25 AM But wasn't the Rock Island the "true" Transcon route? And not the CNW,Right? I mean the Rock Island was the first Railroad into Council Bluffs wasn't it? Allan. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 4:51 AM A little off subjejet, but why did the government nix the SP/ATSF merger? Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, December 8, 2005 1:42 AM Well Allan, In the first half of the 1990s it was the UP that was well run and had lots of ca***o spend, not BN. C&NW's entry into the Powder River Basin was through the WRPI, of which UP held the mortgage. C&NW's main from Fremont to Chicago was carrying mostly UP traffic. UP held an option on the IAIS and could have rebuilt it with double track and CTC, and perhaps added the EJ&E if they wanted. C&NW needed UP, but UP did not need the C&NW. If BN won a bidding war with UP for the C&NW (not very likely), they still would have needed government approval (again, not very likely). Why would BN pay a high price for C&NW, with most of the traffic going elsewhere ? BN would have had to borrow the money for the purchase, and there was no way they could repay the loan, pay the interest and still make a profit. I would speculate that would have driven BN stock down far enough to anger a lot of stockholders, thus endangering the jobs of BN's top management. UP won the right to buy the CRI&P in 1974, but the Rock had fallen to far into disrepair by then. UP does have 2,000 of the 4,000 miles of the Rock that is still around, from the Twin Cities to Fort Worth and Santa Rosa, plus the corn lines. Dale Reply miniwyo Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Rock Springs Wy. 1,967 posts Posted by miniwyo on Thursday, December 8, 2005 12:13 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by wgnrr When I go railfanning on the UP's Adam's line, I would rather see UP engines than BNSF. BNSF doesn't have a 3985, a 844 or a DDA40X, or a E9 set or a big yellow passenger car set, or ex-CNW cabooses on the back of their locals, and a lot of old wooden ex-CNW depots, and.... I actually see Mopac cabooses on our locals, every now and then we get an odd UP caboose though. RJ "Something hidden, Go and find it. Go and look behind the ranges, Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go." The Explorers - Rudyard Kipling http://sweetwater-photography.com/ Reply wgnrr Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Wisconsin 735 posts Posted by wgnrr on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 10:10 PM When I go railfanning on the UP's Adam's line, I would rather see UP engines than BNSF. BNSF doesn't have a 3985, a 844 or a DDA40X, or a E9 set or a big yellow passenger car set, or ex-CNW cabooses on the back of their locals, and a lot of old wooden ex-CNW depots, and.... My Photo Albums: http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k32/martin_lumber/ http://tinyurl.com/3yzns6 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:56 PM I still think the UP should have taken over the Rock Island Railroad. Allan. Reply Edit MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:22 PM BN already had a route to Chicago from Omaha. UP also had a substancial financial position (I think) in CNW. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:48 PM Chicago Northern [;)] Reply Edit jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,898 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:39 PM Without the UP, the CNW would've been gone a long time ago. Jeff Reply coborn35 Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Duluth,Minnesota,USA 4,015 posts Posted by coborn35 on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 8:25 PM Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt it more of a takeover? Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..." The Missabe Road: Safety First Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Why the UPRR and not BN? Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 6:00 PM Why did the CNW merge with the UP instead of mergering with the BN RAILROAD? Allan. Reply Edit Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by wgnrr When I go railfanning on the UP's Adam's line, I would rather see UP engines than BNSF. BNSF doesn't have a 3985, a 844 or a DDA40X, or a E9 set or a big yellow passenger car set, or ex-CNW cabooses on the back of their locals, and a lot of old wooden ex-CNW depots, and....
RJ
"Something hidden, Go and find it. Go and look behind the ranges, Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go." The Explorers - Rudyard Kipling
http://sweetwater-photography.com/
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
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