QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 Mud...what's the deal on the line between Pueblo and Canon City. Who's is it? UP, BNSF,Rock-n-rail,CCRG? I have seen Rock-n-Rails motors on the joint line between Pueblo and Springs. Can their crews run on that line or is it UP's or BNSF's crews? Get your scorecard out IronKen: BNSF leased all and later sold all of its holdings to RRRR/RGCX between Canon Jcn. in Pueblo to end of the line in Canon City. (incredibly poor job by BNSF Asset Management and their attorneys...they failed to contact the people who actually knew what was what out there in the engineering departments - really a botched deal) UP sold to RRRR/RGCXfrom 9th St. Canon City ,thru the Royal Gorge to Parkdale while retaining trackage rights later (almost as bad a goof as BNSF's) and still maintaaining signal and dispatch responsibilities. After the 1923 flood, the parallell ATSF and DRGW lines were merged into a joint line containing the best main track segments of each with DRGW controlling the main. ATSF got trackage rights to reach it's "islands" at Prtland, Canon City, Rockvale Branch and Cotter Spur out of Canon City. . (RRRR /RGCX got those trackage rights) RRRR constantly goes broke and changes owners. (Railroad isn't losing $$$$, but the aggregate mines do due to really poor management) RGCX and RRRR really don't like one another and FRA has had to step in and play referee more than once. Both RRRR and RGCX need to be taken out behind the woodshed and whomped-on. Both are classic lessons on how not to operate, maintain and inspect a railroad. What a sorry mess.[V][V][V] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Monday, December 5, 2005 11:00 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken Carl: I had a foreman (now an Asst. Rdm.) who was 6'-10" 360bs.....spikes jumped into the ties out of self defence and/or fear. Bet that guy didn't have to put up with any lip from the crew he supervised . . . . or the people who supervised HIM. Reply PNWRMNM Member sinceMay 2003 From: US 2,593 posts Posted by PNWRMNM on Monday, December 5, 2005 10:44 AM Erik, It was the CP crew that laid just over 10 miles of track in a day. Yes, that record still stands. Mac Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Monday, December 5, 2005 7:07 AM I think with the advent of panel track, and a good logistics manager, ten miles in a day is quite possible....but the budget guys would like it! MOW might be the most under appreciated guys on the road, it all starts with the quality of what they do. For my money, tie plates, with the plate screws and Pandrol clips looks like the way to go...exactly what they show in the photo in Trains. Holds the track in gauge, and doesn’t seem to work loose like spikes. Not as fast as a good spike gang, but it looks a lot more durable. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 5, 2005 6:38 AM Ed, thanks for the links. It's nice to know that automation hasn't taken over all the trades in railroading. Still, track laying and alignment looks like a miserable job... it just takes less people to do it. One of the accomplishments that was highly touted on the UP-CP first transcon was the ability of a UP crew to lay ten miles of track in one day. Does that record still stand? What is the average amount of rail laid in one day nowadays? And how many people actually make up a rail laying crew? Erik Reply Edit Hugh Jampton Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Southern Region now, UK 820 posts Posted by Hugh Jampton on Monday, December 5, 2005 6:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken (3) The mechanical engineers have yet to come up with an effective pandrol setter, but no-one has it right yet (too many variables, esp. capturing the loose pandrol pretzel clip). The skill sets required to be a good trackman are more than most understand. <insert a load of them WTF smilies here please> I can't believe that pan pullers have yet to cross the Atlantic. Have a look at http://www.rotamag.co.uk/page2.htm There's some down the page a bit, I've used them and you get the hang of it quite quickly,, and they're safer than whackin them with a BFH. The only problem is that a different one is neede for each type of clip, and some need both a setter and a puller.. Generally a lurker by natureBe AlertThe world needs more lerts.It's the 3rd rail that makes the difference. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 5, 2005 2:19 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 MC, It must be the lag bolt driver in the photo. If you look closely, there is some sawdust on the tops of the ties. They must have predrilled them a little to make them go in a little easier. There were pallets of plates and buckets of bolts as well as lots of other parts at the sight. As for the greenhorn, I didn't see him break any handles, but the clip went flying a few times before he got it started.[swg] Big boy, they are called screw spikes. When building T/Os, you pre drill the ties after the tie plates and rail are down, then drive the spikes. The spreads/gage all have to be in tolerance, so you have to be accurate. I have put a bunch of screw spikes into ties and am glad to say that it has been a few years since I had to earn my money like that. Try looking up Geismar if you are further interested in this machinery. Mud......do you have anymore to add? P.S. Mud...what's the deal on the line between Pueblo and Canon City. Who's is it? UP, BNSF,Rock-n-rail,CCRG? I have seen Rock-n-Rails motors on the joint line between Pueblo and Springs. Can their crews run on that line or is it UP's or BNSF's crews? Reply Edit mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,820 posts Posted by mudchicken on Sunday, December 4, 2005 10:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer QUOTE: Originally posted by ChuckCobleigh QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered There was also a figure thrown out of 11,000 tons of rails being manufactured. How much track, in length, is that? Erik 11,000 tons of 150 pound rail works out to about 83 miles of rail or 41+ miles of track. The heaviest rail I ever heard of was some 144 # rail the PRR used over the alleghennies back around WW2. Try PRR/Lackawanna 157 # Rail (then visualize 90# rail welded to it which is a really strange sight)...there is 175# thick web crane rail out there now as well) Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, December 4, 2005 8:26 PM Sarah...That is the NS here in Muncie that I note of the Pandrol clips also....Also along with them the tie plates are bolted and some are spiked..... Quentin Reply Big_Boy_4005 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: St Paul, MN 6,218 posts Posted by Big_Boy_4005 on Sunday, December 4, 2005 7:13 PM MC, It must be the lag bolt driver in the photo. If you look closely, there is some sawdust on the tops of the ties. They must have predrilled them a little to make them go in a little easier. There were pallets of plates and buckets of bolts as well as lots of other parts at the sight. As for the greenhorn, I didn't see him break any handles, but the clip went flying a few times before he got it started.[swg] I'm back! Follow the progress: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1 Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Sunday, December 4, 2005 5:53 PM 10,000 tons or 80-some miles of new rail sure doesn't sound like very much. Was that supposed to be for just one project, one railroad or nationwide? (My January Trains has not yet arrived.) Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Sunday, December 4, 2005 5:39 PM Erik, Here is a link for Pandrol clips, scroll down to see the common application used here in the US... http://www.pandrol.com/cstudies/c35_bdy.htm http://www.pandroluk.com/casestudies/prj31_bdy.htm Tried to "drive" one in a few days ago, Mudchicken is right, looks easy, but really requires a lot more skill than you think. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Sunday, December 4, 2005 5:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ChuckCobleigh QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered There was also a figure thrown out of 11,000 tons of rails being manufactured. How much track, in length, is that? Erik 11,000 tons of 150 pound rail works out to about 83 miles of rail or 41+ miles of track. The heaviest rail I ever heard of was some 144 # rail the PRR used over the alleghennies back around WW2. Ride Amtrak. Cats Rule, Dogs Drool. Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,820 posts Posted by mudchicken on Sunday, December 4, 2005 4:57 PM Sarah: that thing you have lying around the house is a rail anchor (which does not fasten the rail to the tie; it just pushes against the tie to keep the tie from skewing and the rail from running accross the tie plate) The machine is actually two hydraulic lag-screw drivers (Screw applicator), spike puller or hairpin pullers (can't see the actual workhead behind the rail) Erik: (1) Keep it simple, (2) setting a pandrol clip is easy compared to diving a spike (and you do not want to overdrive a pandrol and (3) The mechanical engineers have yet to come up with an effective pandrol setter, but no-one has it right yet (too many variables, esp. capturing the loose pandrol pretzel clip). The skill sets required to be a good trackman are more than most understand. Carl: I had a foreman (now an Asst. Rdm.) who was 6'-10" 360bs.....spikes jumped into the ties out of self defence and/or fear. BigBoy: How many maul handles did the greenhorn newbie break? Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply CSXrules4eva Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Louisville, KY 1,345 posts Posted by CSXrules4eva on Sunday, December 4, 2005 2:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR You should see a pair of experienced section men driving a spike. Takes only a couple of seconds--not only do they hit it every time, but they manage to keep the hammers out of each other's way. That sort of reminds me of some of the guys at my job driving a broken axle out of the rear of a truck. I'd rather see the section men though. lol Modelcar, over here Septa (Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority) uses nothing but clips on all their mainlines to attach the rails to the ties. I have occasionally seen another method of holding the rail to the tie with the use of some kind of clamp (I have one lying around the house somewere) that you put undeneath the rail, or something like that I don't know the techical term for it but, I do know that NS loves this method of rail attachment on all of their former Conrail lines in PA. LORD HELP US ALL TO BE ORIGINAL AND NOT CRISPY!!! please? Sarah J.M. Warner conductor CSX Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, December 4, 2005 11:57 AM You should see a pair of experienced section men driving a spike. Takes only a couple of seconds--not only do they hit it every time, but they manage to keep the hammers out of each other's way. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, December 4, 2005 10:59 AM ....Those clips are in use on wood ties too...... Quentin Reply ChuckCobleigh Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Sunny (mostly) San Diego 1,919 posts Posted by ChuckCobleigh on Sunday, December 4, 2005 10:57 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered There was also a figure thrown out of 11,000 tons of rails being manufactured. How much track, in length, is that? Erik 11,000 tons of 150 pound rail works out to about 83 miles of rail or 41+ miles of track. Reply Big_Boy_4005 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: St Paul, MN 6,218 posts Posted by Big_Boy_4005 on Sunday, December 4, 2005 9:58 AM Well Erik, when I took that photo, there was a crew building a switch that was eventually lifted into place. Obviously switch construction is hand work. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was an automated method for doing that on normal track. While I was watching, there was this one guy who just couldn't hit the clip. It took him like four tries just to hit it. Most of the other guys could get them set in a couple of swings. [swg] I'm back! Follow the progress: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 4, 2005 8:33 AM Yep, those are the clips I'm talking about. I'm surprised with all the machinery used in laying track that something as mundane as a sledge hammer would be used to install these clips. Next thing you know, we will be bringing back gandy dancers and John Henry. Erik Reply Edit Big_Boy_4005 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: St Paul, MN 6,218 posts Posted by Big_Boy_4005 on Sunday, December 4, 2005 8:06 AM As far as I know railroads still use spikes on most of their track. Are these the clips you are talking about? This gizmo, I believe, is a drill, or else it is a device for screwing in long lag bolts, which hold the special plates to the ties. The clips are driven in from the side with a sledge hammer. I think these clips are used on concrete ties. Spring tension in the clip is what holds the rail down. Rail is measured in pounds per yard, and comes in different sizes. My guess is that most rail produced today is for mainline replacement, meaning 100 pounds plus per yard. The math is simple once you know size being produced. Hope this answer holds you over til Mud Chicken gets here.[;)] I'm back! Follow the progress: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Making tracks... Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 4, 2005 7:24 AM The latest TRAINS had an article on composite ties. I actually have seen some concrete ties in the middle of nowhere in Georgia... I noticed that there is a new (to me, anyway) way of attaching the rails to the ties. It looks like some kind of clip arrangement. Which leads to the question. Do railroads use spikes any more? Who makes them? There was also a figure thrown out of 11,000 tons of rails being manufactured. How much track, in length, is that? Erik Reply Edit Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 Mud...what's the deal on the line between Pueblo and Canon City. Who's is it? UP, BNSF,Rock-n-rail,CCRG? I have seen Rock-n-Rails motors on the joint line between Pueblo and Springs. Can their crews run on that line or is it UP's or BNSF's crews?
QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken Carl: I had a foreman (now an Asst. Rdm.) who was 6'-10" 360bs.....spikes jumped into the ties out of self defence and/or fear.
23 17 46 11
QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken (3) The mechanical engineers have yet to come up with an effective pandrol setter, but no-one has it right yet (too many variables, esp. capturing the loose pandrol pretzel clip). The skill sets required to be a good trackman are more than most understand.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 MC, It must be the lag bolt driver in the photo. If you look closely, there is some sawdust on the tops of the ties. They must have predrilled them a little to make them go in a little easier. There were pallets of plates and buckets of bolts as well as lots of other parts at the sight. As for the greenhorn, I didn't see him break any handles, but the clip went flying a few times before he got it started.[swg]
QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer QUOTE: Originally posted by ChuckCobleigh QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered There was also a figure thrown out of 11,000 tons of rails being manufactured. How much track, in length, is that? Erik 11,000 tons of 150 pound rail works out to about 83 miles of rail or 41+ miles of track. The heaviest rail I ever heard of was some 144 # rail the PRR used over the alleghennies back around WW2.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ChuckCobleigh QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered There was also a figure thrown out of 11,000 tons of rails being manufactured. How much track, in length, is that? Erik 11,000 tons of 150 pound rail works out to about 83 miles of rail or 41+ miles of track.
QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered There was also a figure thrown out of 11,000 tons of rails being manufactured. How much track, in length, is that? Erik
Quentin
I'm back!
Follow the progress:
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"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR You should see a pair of experienced section men driving a spike. Takes only a couple of seconds--not only do they hit it every time, but they manage to keep the hammers out of each other's way.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
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