steepest grade

[timz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

Silly question while we are on this topic.... I have heard the term "ruling" grade before.... what does this refer too? The average grade of a long grade? The steepest part of a long grade?[%-)]

Nothing silly about that question. The closest anybody can come to answering it is: the grade that determines train tonnage. It's difficult or impossible to get more specific than that.

In the past, railroads sometimes said they had a "ruling grade" over a given district of, say, 0.3%, even though the district included a helper grade twice as steep or more. They meant the road engine's tonnage rating over the district was based on the 0.3% grade-- so that was the "ruling grade".

[Modelcar]

BRF.....Thanks for the info on the proposed passenger traffic for the Saluda area....and can you comment whether the ROW landslide has been repaired.....

[Anonymous]

Here is a recent article from the local paper about what many in the area would like to see happen to the line.

from the Tryon Daily Bulletin

Polk on board new push for local excursion trains
Chris Dailey
November 22, 2005

Polk County officials are jumping on board a new effort to bring passenger rail service for tourists and commuters to the local rail line.

Polk County Economic Development Director Kipp McIntyre says Spartanburg, S.C. is leading the latest effort to build a coalition of public and private entities that can turn the vision into a working plan.

McIntyre gave an update on the latest developments last Thursday to the Polk County Public Works Commitee, which includes representatives from the county and its three municipalities.

McIntyre says he was contacted by Spartanburg Mayor Pro Tem Renee Cariveau recently to discuss the potential for excursion trains from Spartanburg to Asheville, and perhaps beyond.

He says Spartanburg is interested in the tourism and economic development opportunities that such a train would create, particularly given its current “spirited renewal” downtown.

The terminus of the local rail line in Spartanburg is located near the revitalized Morgan Square, the Renaissance Park Complex and new Marriott Spartanburg Hotel, Barnett Park, the Spartanburg Convention & Visitors Bureau and the new Chapman Cultural Center, now under construction.

An excursion train could run from Spartanburg through Polk County, rising up the historic “Saluda Grade” to the Asheville basin, where it would cross the Blue Ridge Parkway and Biltmore Estate before reaching downtown Asheville.

Officials say the line would benefit not only Spartanburg and Asheville, but every community in between. Several stops would be likely in the local area.
“As this project moves forward it will have a very serious impact on Polk County in a very positive way,” says McIntyre.

Before getting to that point, though, local officials must convince Norfolk Southern, the owner of the local line, to let passenger trains on the track.

So far, that’s been a difficult task. Norfolk Southern has resisted the idea of allowing passenger trains, saying it’s reserving the line in case it resumes freight traffic.

It’s been nearly four years since there was regular freight traffic on the line, and Norfolk cut the line in two places in April of 2003 to railbank a 20-mile section.

Railbanking the section, which starts just south of Hwy. 14 in Landrum, S.C. and extends past Saluda, allowed Norfolk to reserve it without having the costs of regular maintenance.

Tryon council member Dennis Durham explained to McIntyre at the public works meeting the problems encountered when approaching Norfolk Southern in the past.

He said the Carolina Heritage Line Committee, created locally after Norfolk stopped regular freight traffic here, got support from local counties and cities, and the N.C. Department of Transportation.

But he says Norfolk made it clear that it’s not interested in passenger service on the line, and the liability insurance it would have required for passenger service was exorbitant.

“I’m all in support of any renewed effort,” said Durham. “But we’ve been through this effort for three and a half years… and (Norfolk) still says ‘it’s our railroad, stay off it.’”

McIntyre says he’s hopeful that the latest effort to sell the passenger service idea to Norfolk will make progress. He notes that the founder of Spartanburg-based Extended Stay America serves on the Norfolk Southern Board of Directors, and a few other business and political leaders may have connections to the rail company.

McIntyre said letters from the governors of both North Carolina and South Carolina may ultimately be needed before excursion train service can begin here.

“It’s going to have to be plugged into an east coast alternative transportation network,” says McIntyre.

He adds that a Cross Border Initiative (CBI), supported by the Z. Smith Reynolds Foundation, has been launched to find regional approaches to common economic opportunities across state lines.

In the local area, the CBI was initiated to bring together business, education and government leaders from Polk, Rutherford, Spartanburg, S.C. Greenville, S.C. and Cherokee, S.C. counties. A group of 15 of these leaders met last month at the Pine Crest Inn in Tryon.

Polk County officials say such collaborative efforts could help in a variety of initiatives, including excursion trains.

Polk County Manager Michael Talbert says the chances of convincing Norfolk improve as more people get behind the project, but he added that if they can’t make progress with Norfolk “we’ll be wasting time.”

“The idea at this point is to bring as many people together as possible… and then approach Norfolk Southern,” says Polk County Manager Michael Talbert. “We’re looking to bring in as many partners as we can.”

http://tryondailybulletin.com/news/17862.asp

I figure NS has no means of abandoning the line at the time. This is just a theory of mine, but I believe traffic may not be seen on the line until 2010 at the earliest when Yucca Mountain is slated to start accepting nuclear waste in Nevada. I know that the line is proposed to carry a fair amount of nuclear waste from various nuclear power sites in South Carolina. Duke Power is also planning to build another nuclear reactor in the Upstate (possibly Cherokee County - to be announced by Duke by the end of the month) which will be online by 2015, adding more waste to be transported. Progress Energy is also looking to build their own reactor somewhere in the Piedmont of N.C. I highly doubt excursion trains will be seen any time soon though.

[Anonymous]

Silly question while we are on this topic.... I have heard the term "ruling" grade before.... what does this refer too? The average grade of a long grade? The steepest part of a long grade?[%-)]

[cnw4001]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mononjohn


The Madison Hill is a 7,012' incline plane of 5.89% grade. A detailed history of the Railroad, which became part of the Pennsylvania System may be found here: http://www.hometown.aol.com/ma393/railroad/index.htm Photo of the hill & other info at: http://www.jcohs.org/main.asp?SectionID=10

Thanks for the post, I looked at the photo of the hill and found it interesting. Used to see the grade back in the 50's when I traveled through the area as an alternate route between Cincinnati and Louisville.

Dale

[martin.knoepfel]

AFAIK, the Madison-Incline engines were the first steam engines to be able to run on rack and straight adhesion.

[Anonymous]

The Madison Hill is a 7,012' incline plane of 5.89% grade. A detailed history of the Railroad, which became part of the Pennsylvania System may be found here: http://www.hometown.aol.com/ma393/railroad/index.htm Photo of the hill & other info at: http://www.jcohs.org/main.asp?SectionID=10

[CHIPSTRAINS]

THE EX-PRR TRACK AT MADISON,IN., HAD A SPECIAL SD7 ASSIGNEDTO THAT AREA , FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF NAVIGATING THAT "HILL". THERE WERE A FEW INDUSTRIES IN TOWN, [WHICH IS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HILL] THAT IT SERVED, AND MORE AT THE TOP,[MAINLY "MADISON GROCERY"]. "TRAINS", MAGIZINE, HAD A INTERESTING ARTICLE ON IT A FEW YEARS BACK,BUT CAN'T REMEMBER THE ISSUE, BUT, IT DETAILED THE NEAR TRAGIC RESULTS OF WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE"P.C." TOOK OVER AND SENT IN AN EX NYC SD7 W/O DYNAMIC BRAKES TO REPLACE THEEX-PRR UNIT THAT WERE SENT IN FOR OVERHAUL. TYPICAL MANAGERIAL "ERROR" "CHIP"[:D]

[Modelcar]

...Derrick....Do you know anything of the status of the massive land slide that occured this year on the Saluda "hill"....I'm still wondering if it was repaired....The tracks were hanging in mid air with the ROW washed away from under it...A massive shift of ground....!

[dekemd]

There is no tower at Saluda. The runaway track switches were automatic. The switches normally stayed lined for the runaway track. There was a system that measured train speed at a certain point before each runaway track. If the train was less than 8 MPH (I think that's the correct speed) the switch would automatically line for the main. The downhill run required all trains to stop at the top of the hill and have a certain number of retainers set. NS also required a road foreman of engineers to ride with each train down the hill. Once at the bottom, the trains were stopped again so the retainers could be released. Most trains had to double the hill going up, some had to tripple the hill.

When I was there last summer the track was in good shape. NS has been maintaining it fairly well. It wouldn't take much to put it back in service. There has been some talk of reopening the line to relieve congestion on the Salisbury/Asheville line but so far nothing has come of it.

Derrick

QUOTE: Originally posted by shuffle3

With Saluda, you can probably blame "the bottom line" for it being out of service. If I remember that 2003 Trains article correctly, the uphill trains usually had to double their trains, which is a costly step. For the down grade, the tower needed a crew during operations to switch off any runaways - normal procedure called for setting the switch for the runaway track until the engineer signaled he had the train in good shape to take the mainline. Money still makes the wheels go round. (sigh)

[Modelcar]

...Saying Saluda is the steepest...one must qualify the statement by describing it as "on a main line and class 1 RR".....Generally accepted grade figures are 4.7% {avg.}, with spots of about 5.1%. Of course it's not operational now, but has been until just a few years ago and for the most part is still in place.....{I'm still wondering if that massive land slide at one point on the grade was repaired by NS}.....?

[Anonymous]

suldua is one of the steepist railroad grades on the easternseaborad that is the only one other the crawfort noutch in new hampshere

[fly2try]

Does anyone know how steep the NC&Stl was from Cowan to Sewane in Tennessee?

[jkubajakiii]

I'm not sure if this one counts because it wasn't used since 1928. I am talking about the ORIGINAL Rollins Pass, BEFORE the Moffat Tunnel. 4% in both directions, up AND down for 27 MILES! It may not be as steep as Saluda Mountain, but it was THE WORST. Because its 12,660 ft. summit (if I remember correctly) is above the tree line, snow was always a major factor to the old Denver & Salt Lake. The SP only needed rotaries on bad yaers, while the D&SL run their rotaries NINE MONTHS out of EVERY YEAR! There were even horror stories of trains being stalled even DOWN the 4% grade!
You can understand why no one missed "Hill Hell" when the Moffat opened in 1928!
[{(-_-)}]

[Modelcar]

...It is beyond me how crews handled trains on such mountain grades as mentioned above before the advent of air brakes....and perhaps even after the initial installation of them when they perhaps were still a bit crude....It's a wonder half the traffic didn't get away from them on the downgrades....I know loads and rolling stock were much smaller then but still gravity pulls agains any weight....

[Anonymous]

The CPR has a monster grade going into the fertilizer plant at Warfield from the Trail Smelter. Note sure what the specific slope, however, it is awesome!!!

[Anonymous]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the original Cascades crossing of the Northern Pacific in 1887. It was a set of five switchbacks with grades of 5.6% in places.

Two locomotives (one at either end) would wrestle 5 cars at a time up and down the mountain. They had a pair of Baldwin 2-10-0 locomotives built specifically and used exclusively on the switchbacks. Eventually this track was bypassed by the Stampede Tunnel.

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

QUOTE: Originally posted by mrunyan

CN/IC interchange track to the EJ&E is a short tight curve at Munger Junction in Illinois. Going straight on the CN mainline you go under The J's girder bridge. Taking the curve is a 10% grade, suddenly you are up at The J's mainline and this is in use to this day.

Nickname for similar steep grade in Pueblo Yard (ATSF/BNSF) is "angels flight".

That is a striking grade, I assume the one you refer to is the one at the station across from the railway museum ?

Angel's Flight is south of 29th Street, opposite the State Mental Hospital which is on the north end of the Pueblo yard, north of the Midtown Shopping Center, 1/2 mile north of the yard tower. This was a connection to the main track to the receiving yard for the old hump. (Drops 20 feet in a big hurry)

Ah yes.. btw the ATSF 4-8-4 there really needs help. what is the story with that poor thing ?

Organisation that has it went broke while in process of rehabbing, now has New name and less lofty goals unless the $$$$ is in hand. Got to where it is in 1998 after static display site (near the old MoPac freighthouse) became part of the riverwalk site.[:D]

[Randy Stahl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

QUOTE: Originally posted by mrunyan

CN/IC interchange track to the EJ&E is a short tight curve at Munger Junction in Illinois. Going straight on the CN mainline you go under The J's girder bridge. Taking the curve is a 10% grade, suddenly you are up at The J's mainline and this is in use to this day.

Nickname for similar steep grade in Pueblo Yard (ATSF/BNSF) is "angels flight".

That is a striking grade, I assume the one you refer to is the one at the station across from the railway museum ?

Angel's Flight is south of 29th Street, opposite the State Mental Hospital which is on the north end of the Pueblo yard, north of the Midtown Shopping Center, 1/2 mile north of the yard tower. This was a connection to the main track to the receiving yard for the old hump. (Drops 20 feet in a big hurry)

Ah yes.. btw the ATSF 4-8-4 there really needs help. what is the story with that poor thing ?

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

QUOTE: Originally posted by mrunyan

CN/IC interchange track to the EJ&E is a short tight curve at Munger Junction in Illinois. Going straight on the CN mainline you go under The J's girder bridge. Taking the curve is a 10% grade, suddenly you are up at The J's mainline and this is in use to this day.

Nickname for similar steep grade in Pueblo Yard (ATSF/BNSF) is "angels flight".

That is a striking grade, I assume the one you refer to is the one at the station across from the railway museum ?

Angel's Flight is south of 29th Street, opposite the State Mental Hospital which is on the north end of the Pueblo yard, north of the Midtown Shopping Center, 1/2 mile north of the yard tower. This was a connection to the main track to the receiving yard for the old hump. (Drops 20 feet in a big hurry)

[Randy Stahl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

QUOTE: Originally posted by mrunyan

CN/IC interchange track to the EJ&E is a short tight curve at Munger Junction in Illinois. Going straight on the CN mainline you go under The J's girder bridge. Taking the curve is a 10% grade, suddenly you are up at The J's mainline and this is in use to this day.

Nickname for similar steep grade in Pueblo Yard (ATSF/BNSF) is "angels flight".

That is a striking grade, I assume the one you refer to is the one at the station across from the railway museum ?

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mrunyan

CN/IC interchange track to the EJ&E is a short tight curve at Munger Junction in Illinois. Going straight on the CN mainline you go under The J's girder bridge. Taking the curve is a 10% grade, suddenly you are up at The J's mainline and this is in use to this day.

Nickname for similar steep grade in Pueblo Yard (ATSF/BNSF) is "angels flight".

[Anonymous]

I know that there are steeper grades elsewhere, but no steep grade is as pretty and as brutal and still in use as the "Hill" out of Ashland, Oregon on the Southern Pacific RR on its way south to Black Butte, California. Under prodding from the large mills in Oregon the Central Oregon and Pacific RR ( CORP) is now attacking the hill often as a short cut to California

[chad thomas]

If anyone is interested here is a site that lists grades on some of the hills around

http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/grades.htm

[mrunyan]

CN/IC interchange track to the EJ&E is a short tight curve at Munger Junction in Illinois. Going straight on the CN mainline you go under The J's girder bridge. Taking the curve is a 10% grade, suddenly you are up at The J's mainline and this is in use to this day.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BCRodich

Can anyone tell me the tightest turning radius of any turn in the Feather River Route that is actually in the canyon (not in a yard)? What would it equate to in HO scale?

Partly no..
But ,, I worked this out from first principles (been a while,, hope I got it right. If not I'm sure there'll be a queue to point out the errors of my ways).


What was a nice excel table showing degrees of curvature, actual radius in feet and equivalent HO radius in inches is shown below


Degree Curvature.......Radius in feet............................HO radius in inches
1.......................................5729.65.................................................789.389
2.......................................2864.93.................................................394.709
3.......................................1910.08.................................................263.157
4.......................................1432.68.................................................197.384
5.......................................1146.28.................................................157.926
6.........................................955.364...............................................131.623
7.........................................819.021...............................................112.839
8.........................................716.781.................................................98.7528
9........................................637.273.................................................87.7988
10......................................573.685.................................................79.0381
26.5...................................218.15...................................................30.0551
33.3...................................174.505.................................................24.0420
45......................................130.656.................................................18.0008

[mackb4]

I only worked on it a couple of trips,but the old P-vine from Portsmouth to Cinncy. Ohio was pretty steep.It is not being used all the way to Portsmouth but I think it is to Winchester Ohio.I never had to, but most trains had to double two hills,one I believe at Sardina and the other at Pebbles Ohio.Before the NS was formed I was told the P-vine was the steepest grade the N&W had.I think we'll see it open after double stacks start running here on the Poca.in the next few years.

[Anonymous]

how about the Siskiyou line in Northern California-Southern Oregon. It use to be the SP north-south mailine.

[Anonymous]

Can anyone tell me the tightest turning radius of any turn in the Feather River Route that is actually in the canyon (not in a yard)? What would it equate to in HO scale?