signals

[Anonymous]

Somebody famous once said "Money is the original behavior modification tool!". We (the public) should say to the railrads "Ya ain't gettin no tax dollars until ya lose the attitude!"

And watch the NIMBYs run the railroads right out of town - tracks and all. Its already happened in the town I live in, to both railroad branchlines. The city council simply re-zoned and re-developed the land right out from under the railroad's customers. It was systmatic and deliberate. Thus no customers - Ergo no railroad. The tracks are now gone. This is a very common trick in California.

As to the route the Capitol trains are on, it is not impossible that the state may take the mainline by eminent domain (the original freight railroad or the highest bidder then runs on trackage rights). California governments already have nearly a thousand miles miles of mainline track, some taken under threat of an eminent domain court order. They run passenger trains on much of it - but not all.

I understand that state ownership of track with operating rights sold to the highest bidder is becoming quite common in other states as well. In Texas, a bill was just signed to build a new branchline railroad in order to break a Union Pacific monopoly so that Toyota would build a factory there. Even the customers are resisting.

The states are simply not going to put up with any more railroad antics! And there is already talk at the national level of various "Alternative" rightofway ownership arrangements.

You are probably right that the railroad won't change. But too bad for them! They will lose if they don't soon mend fences.

From a railfan perspective, it does not really matter whether all trackage is controlled by a government owned monopoly or a privately owned monopoly (seems that's the only choices we will have). Since I doubt it will make much difference to the railroad employee either, I've gotten to the point that I say to the railroads "Oh well! GO AHEAD AND LOSE if you won't change!"

RmC

[wabash1]

You are right about the public opinoin but the railroad wont change . they dont want to they are to much like the goverment buisness as ussual the problem is that the way they do buisness substandard and until they change there way they wont see the profits that they are capible of making

[Anonymous]

The Railroads have always had a "Public Be D_mned" attitude. But that's not who is going to get d_mned. I've noticed that the public is generally returning the attitude right back. Seventy percent of all ton miles already go by truck. It is not surprising why this is so. NYMBYs (Irate neighbors) constantly give the railroads legal fits - as do the railroad's own customers. Even Republican Senator's are now getting on the re-regulation bandwagon.

And the Coup de grace is yet to come. The railroad industry is now starting to line up at the goverment money trough - as we speak. They want help in rightofway investment - because they can't earn the marketplace cost of capital - again not surprising. Yea right - bite me and see how much I feed you!

Add to this picture the Shafting California is already getting over the operation of the Capitol Trains. They park cuts of freight cars in the way on the two track main for days at a time (drives the poor dispatchers nuts), and fail to maintain the track until the FRA imposes speed restrictions (and the state imposes fines).

Now I read where they are demanding the state pay for new tripple track in one stretch where they park several whole trains (unmanned) at a time on the main, waiting for the yard. This after the state already paid $80 million to upgrade the rail and provide CTC for the line. They also park cars on another tripple track section the state already built.

You begin to wonder what credibility the railroads will have, since they already have taken significant public investment and then failed to run a credible service in return. Not one train has arrived on time in a month. Everyday I hear about irate passengers demanding refunds.

In many communities there is already a ground swell of opposition to any remote control and to any high speed operations AT ALL over grade crossings. Railroading is my vocation, and my avocation, yet even I am also thinking it's time stick it too 'em - right back.

I guess I am frustrated - you found one of my hot buttons! Sorry!

My point is that a major political battle is brewing - which the railroads have not a ghost of a chance of winning. They may win a few skirmishes (mostly at the federal level), but not the war. State and local goverments are solidly with the public. Things will only get worse for them until they lose the public be d_mned attitude.

Too bad our jobs depend on them! Oh well, I am too close to retirement - need to think about that, instead of this. Thanks for the vent.
RmC

[wabash1]

the public may not be but the railroads are.

[Anonymous]

I suppose your right. But what are the politicians going to do when they run out of taxpayers. California has already had one major tax revolt - it resulted in a draconian state constitutional ammendment.

Trouble is that people are still getting killed at grade crossings every day. And they are still making more grade crossings - every day.

Bytheway, some transit operations have attempted driverless trains, but only a few low speed "People Mover" systems (such as an airport tram)have succeeded. Even the fully automated high speed systems have "Operators" (motorman).

The public just isn't ready for driverless trains.
RmC

[wabash1]

as soon as you get rid of the road crossings all the railroads will go remote control. there wont be anyone on a engine. and the unemployment rate will go back up. and the politician who gets money from the unoin will now be short a few thousand dollars from us guys who will no longer support him

[Anonymous]

Its too bad they're alway trying to eliminate the important stuff. What are they doing with all that money we "Give" them, anyway.

As a railroad signal engineer, I can tell you that no amount of education will ever over-ride the natural perception mentioned a couple of posts back. Its a matter of geometry - an optical illusion. The train simply appears further back than it is - especially at night. The same is true of an oncomming car when you are about to pass someone. That's why there are so many head on colisions, most at night.

We have all kinds of discussions at national forums such as the A.A.R. puts on, about 4-way crossing gates and street curbing to prevent people from going around, but nothing ever happens.

I work for a transit system that won't allow any grade crossings at all in our electrified areas. But trying to get the idea of a moratorium on new grade crossings on the diesel areas into the heads of the local politicans seems hopeless. Anybody who wants to build a road across any mainline or high speed tracks ought to be required by law to go over or under, period.

I think the only real solution is to eliminate all grade crossings. Some think that is impractical. But it we certainly could do a lot more. One way is to put unemployed people to work in a sort of CCC or WPA project to build overpasses and consolidate street crossings.

Unions have sometimes balked at such welfare projects, but this wouldn't take any union work away from them as this is something that otherwise won't happen anyway.

Heck, it might even perk up the economy. Now what politician who wants to get re-elected could pass that one up. They seem to manage - go figure.

RmC

[Anonymous]

Its too bad they're alway trying to eliminate the important stuff. What are they doing with all that money we "Give" them, anyway.

As a railroad signal engineer, I can tell you that no amount of education will ever over-ride the natural perception mentioned a couple of posts back. Its a matter of geometry - an optical illusion. The train simply appears further back than it is - especially at night. The same is true of an oncomming car when you are about to pass someone. That's why there are so many head on colisions, most at night.

We have all kinds of discussions at national forums such as the A.A.R. puts on, about 4-way crossing gates and street curbing to prevent people from going around, but nothing ever happens.

I work for a transit system that won't allow any grade crossings at all in our electrified areas. But trying to get the idea of a moratorium on new grade crossings on the diesel areas into the heads of the local politicans seems hopeless. Anybody who wants to build a road across any mainline or high speed tracks ought to be required by law to go over or under, period.

I think the only real solution is to eliminate all grade crossings. Some think that is impractical. But it we certainly could do a lot more. One way is to put unemployed people to work in a sort of CCC or WPA project to build overpasses and consolidate street crossings.

Unions have sometimes balked at such welfare projects, but this wouldn't take any union work away from them as this is something that otherwise won't happen anyway.

Heck, it might even perk up the economy. Now what politician who wants to get re-elected could pass that one up. They seem to manage - go figure.

RmC

[Mookie]

Regarding teaching our children about the power of trains: They are now eliminating the driver's education classes here in our public schools.

So now, not only will they not learn about railroad crossings and the dangers of being around trains, they won't learn about the dangers of intersections and being around cars.

A sad state of affairs.

Jen

[favuprailroadfan]

Jenny, Hey its no problem. I enjoy helping others who don't know much about it. Anything you have questions about, like I said, just ask. I will be here all day long.

Dru

[Mookie]

Thanx for the help Dru - stay tuned, cuz I probably will have lots more questions. And everyone on this forum is so nice and helpful with the answers!

Jen

[favuprailroadfan]

I am not even going to ask you that question again. I don't want you to reach through the computer and slap me.LOL. Well if there is anything else I can help you with then jsut ask and I will try my best to answer them for ya.

Dru

[Mookie]

Dru - you have only just begun - and as for my age let's just say I have a car that is only 2 years younger than you! :)

But if you read my postings very carefully, you should be able to figure out my "time frame".

I have always known a little about railroading - I am not exactly a novice - having grown up in a family of rr people. But things have changed and some things I never did know. It has only been in the latter years that I have had a chance to pursue my "hobby" a little better.

Jen

[favuprailroadfan]

I'm already past the prime of my life. Why do you say that. If youare now learning all this, how old are you?

Dru

[Mookie]

Well, the first 3 I haven't a clue, but have heard of Stone Cold Steve Austin. And, well, won't go into the history of wrestling, but try to keep up with current things.

Jen

[favuprailroadfan]

Jenny, Isn't it weird how the biggest of rivalries are the best friends. Its like Brock Lesner and Kurt Angle, or the Rock and Stone COld. All in wrestling (I'm sure you know).

Dru

[Mookie]

Dru - Ah - in the prime of your young life!

Well, I hated Barry with a passion and it really shocked me when I found out Tom Osborne and Barry were friends. I still haven't gotten over that one!

Jen

[favuprailroadfan]

Dear Jenny, yes I am old enough to remember ol Barry Switzer. I know that yall are 5 time champs. By the way, I am 24 yrs old.

Dru

[Mookie]

Well Dru, I hope with the therapy you really must go for, you will get over being a Boomer Sooner. (Are you old enough to remember Barry Switzer?)
And the grass around the stadium is beautiful!

But I must admit to at least having lived in Oklahoma for a year - found it to be a great experience. We are rebuilding this year, so let's hope it all goes ok and we give fans on both sides of the stadium a good show.

Jen

PS - at least you have heard of the Cornhuskers! I am not sure many people out of NE and KS even know we were 5 time National Champs!

[favuprailroadfan]

Jenny, I hate to say this and please keep talking to me. But I am a Boomer Sooner, so I don't like the Cornhuskers. Nothing against you. I hate them so much. I have pissed on the football stadium there. When they head west they 75% of them are going back to the Powder River Basin in Wyoming. My family was in railraoding also. Had great uncles on either side work for them, but nobody else get the bug but me


Dru

[Mookie]

Dru: I have been in Kansas many times. You are a little flater than NE, but otherwise you aren't much different. You do get more rain than we do -
we are fast becoming the vast wasteland!

Where we sit is on the east side of the yards. Actually in a neighborhood. So we only see the east and south outbound and west inbound, but you are right - there are many trains that go west. You just can't get as close to them to watch on the west side of the yard.

My heritage is railroad - Dad and Grandfather.
Both went west out of Lincoln (other divisions handle the east and south bound), so I grew up with the railroad. I can really identify with the hours and the away from home on holidays, etc. Also some of the old-timers stories. They are funny now, maybe not so funny at the time!

And Dru, since you are in Kansas, you can go to Lawrence or Manhattan and watch the Big Red Football team from Nebraska play Kansas and K-State universities - always good competitors.

Jen

[favuprailroadfan]

Dear Jenny, I have been to Lincoln. Very good railroad town. well I'll tell you what. Those lines that go away. This is the way that head out.
one line goes south to KC, one heads west to Denver CO, one goes to Omaha, one goes to Grand Island. not for sure about the other one though. You sound very interested in learning things about trains. Are you just know getting into it, or have you been in it for awhile.
There are 2 more things I would like to say.
1. Kansas is not a fine state. Its boring and nothing to do here.
2. If they want to, they can read this all they want to, you can't stop them from reading what you wrote down. Welcome to the internet.LOL

Keep in touch, Dru
I live in McPherson KS

[Mookie]

I will HAVE to find a way to see those signals and see if they do what you described - I am pretty sure they do. Where we sit, it is nearly impossible to see the signals until you are actually on the tracks (going across in a car) since you are at an angle to them otherwise.

Maybe the dwarfs will be easier to see.

Thanx for info!

Jen

[cabforward]

csx yard at my spot manages amtrak runs.. i wanted to see what happened to the lites when amtrak passed.. i needed amtrak, as they had a schedule.. this took about 2 weeks as this was @ work & amtrak wasnt always there when i stood by.. csx has 4 vertical on this double-track, all red in the absence of movements..

when amtrak is due, it goes to (from top) red-red-yellow-red.. about 5-8 min pass, then red-red-green-red.. a few min later, here comes the palmetto flyer, or whatever.. about 10 sec after the end car passes the signal, back to red x 4..

weird thing about an object approaching at speed (any object laarge enough to view about 2 mi away, after i see it for maybe the first 10 sec, it doesnt seem to be moving so fast.. as it closes distance it does seem to accelerate.. as this is nite, i only use the headlite as a reference.. when it closes to about 60-80 yards, it appears to achieve its maximum visual speed, until it passes me at trackside..

i watched cable tv shows where citizens and experts discuss the misperceptions of an observer and trains approaching at speed.. it has caused much damage and too many deaths where people in cars misjudged the approaching loco.. the car was stuck on the track, but the car pass. were not trapped.. they related they felt no threat when they first saw the train..they were calm and believed the car could be moved in time to avoid a colision.. it wasnt until the train closed to about 1/4 mi or less, dep. on speed, that they knew fear.. some got out, and sometimes the driver stayed in, still thinking the car could be moved in time..

it struck me this is a program that should be shown to every driver's license applicant and every h.s. student, whether in driver's ed. or not.. this goes to the heart of many questions of why do sober, alert people in cars stay inside when the train approaches?
this could, i think, wake up some people to the danger of not perceiving danger even when it asserts itself..

there are many variations of grade crossing scenarios which might be covered: guarded/unguarded; single & multiple track; blind approaches (for crew and auto).. blindness can be due to turns, natural and man-made obstacles at trackside; gate avoidance (driving around); and the latest disaster to come along, traffic signals just across the racks, where a red light halts cars on the track at the wrong time..

i think r.rs. shold be compelled to produce a series of videos of various aspects of r.r. presence in our society.. the forum has previously discussed the presence of r.r. cops investigating those who tray on property.. every scenario of citizens crossing paths with the r.r. in a lifetime should be covered in a video: unescorted children; the homeless; grade crossings; accident scenes, etc.. the r.rs. should cover all these possibilities in a series of tapes.. the series should go to every school at no charge.. if the school has no eqpt. or not enough to provide for the demands of showing the tapes, the r.rs. should assist the school or school boards to acquire the eqpt. necessary to give each student time to see every tape once a year.. there should also be tests to see if the info. is being retained by the students.. the results would not be counted against the student's academic record, but would be provided to the parents.. children learn right if they are taught right.. what are kids under 18 being taught about r.rs. besides waving to the engineer?

[Mookie]

Dru: Come up north to Lincoln NE - it isn't that far! We have a spot where 4 tracks are from trains coming and going from Omaha and Iowa. Then two sets go in a southern direction - either SE Nebraska or KC - in your fine state!

They converge into 6 tracks and go into Hobson Yard where it becomes a mess, but they seem to get them in and out w/o a lot of trouble.

And we have a line for Amtrak that is separate from all of these until it gets to the old depot.

I know I sound really knowledgeable, but I read the sign on the crossing that says 4 or 6 tracks.
Don't tell the rest of the forum...

Jen

[favuprailroadfan]

Jenny, where are you from? I would love to have six tracks overhead signals and everything like that. Me, I have a medium density single track main line. Yes, those probably home signals. If you get the chance, go down drive down a little bit from where you watch and see if there are crossovers or a interchange there. It also could be if the tracks drop from 6 to 4 or so on and so forth.

Laters, Dru

[Mookie]

this makes sense. I will have to sit so I can watch to see if they ever change colors. Of course, with 6 tracks and one rather large train, it will be interesting to see if I can get this done.

Thanx

Jen

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Since the signals are almost always showing red, I would assume that they are home signals for crossovers, crossings, diverging tracks, etc. The dwarfs serve the same purpose in the opposing direction. Home signals are generally not cleared until just before a train is due for safety reasons and to avoid tieing up the junction for too much time if the train is delayed.

[Mookie]

Where I sit to train watch - they have 6 tracks. The overhead bridge of signals for outbound seems to always be red - at least I have never seen them any other color. And the dwarf signals not far from them for inbound are always red.

I am sure someone can tell me why.

Jen