turntables

[Mookie]

I see 3-4 engines coming clear out of the yard, then going back in on another track to line up for a train.

Why did they do away with turntables, which seems more efficient to me. Or maybe not - but why?

Jen

[mudchicken]

It's simple economic reality, Turntables are NOT efficient....

Most lash-ups of power stay that way as long as the electrical MU cables work and the cantankerous cab switch settings agree on the back wall of the locomotive cab. (let Ed-Houston HBT or his confederates explain that one)....

(1) Most surviving turntables are only 80-120 ft. long, which will turn only one engine at a time. After unhooking the MU cables and uncoupling, you have to reverse the process again afterwards to put those 3-4 engines together again....(and make sure the connections work, which often don't for various reasons)....

(2) Turntables are riskier to operate and require more "hands on" maintenance than a wye or loop track. Derailments caused by mis-match and or locomotives jumping into the pit are a pain to clean up and still happen.(Same thing applies to transfer tables which are even rarer than turntables...)

(3) Turntables are basically a two span bridge that pivots in the middle. This creates additional inspection and maintenance.

(4) Work rules....some railroads are still saddled with Union Agreement work rules that require a different craft (hostler vs. mechanical vs. train crew) to operate...common sense fails with this issue on a regular basis.

(*5) Switches are easier to build than turntables and often if one switch fails, you can still access the other tracks and keep trains moving.

(6) Standard Parts? For ancient equipment?

Turntables became dinosaurs along with the steam engines they turned. I assume Bellevue, OH (Nickle Plate/NW/NS/W&LE) was the last modern roundhouse and turntable built in the 1950's and that Colorado RR Museum's roundhouse and turntable (from a salvaged CB&Q turntable in the Nebraska panhandle) were the last built, period.

-mudchicken

[Mookie]

Well, that pretty much covers it I think. It just seems that taking a group of engines out for an "airing" down a long stretch of track and around the loop and back in just to get them turned around or on a different track is so inefficient.

I do understand the different people to do different jobs - have it on good authority that and engineer can't change an easily accessible lightbulb - but must call in the "correct" person to do it for them!

Just seems like modern technology that runs these large railroads could do something a little more efficient than "air the engines" all the time.
Sounds like "give me 40 acres and I'll turn this rig around" to me!

Jen

[mudchicken]

Some of it is the "if it ain't broke - don't fix it" syndrome where they buy/replace locomotives every 5-10 years but that switch (or turntable) has been there forever.....That new Ferrari doesn't run so well through all the ruts and potholes in your driveway between the garage and the street, does it? The beancounters, "Wall Street Wonders" and Business Administration majors that run the show these days often have the tools, but are lacking in the common sense & street smarts department(s).

-mudchicken

[Mookie]

your last sentence seems to have become an epidemic!

[Anonymous]

Sir, please take no offence by this, but I believe, if it was not for those bean counters and wall street wonders the railroads would have gone belly-up a long time ago. Lets remember railroads exist to make money.
TIM ARGUBRIGHT

[BRAKIE]

Jenny,Some railroads still have turntables in use.Sadly these are slowly being removed.Down in the Appalachians there may not be room for a wye and that is the only way they can turn locomotives if needed.How much longer will these holdouts last is anybodies guess.

[edblysard]

Hey there, Mudchicken, and Hi Jenny,
HB&T no longer exsist, it was dismantled three years ago, and absorbed/split between its owners, UP and BNSF. HB&T did have a turntable at its Milby street engine facility, where they repaired and overhauled locomotives, and its still there and working. No very big, you can noly get a GP38, or, if your good, a SD40 on it. Anything bigger has to be wyed.
As for MUing a set of motors, it takes about 5 minutes per pair of units, and it can be a pain. You have to plug in the MU cable, the big electircal cable, hook up the train line, (big air hose), and three other air hoses, each with its own gasket, which always fails when your in the rain or in a hurry, and you can never find the spare gasket, and the safety chains at the end platforms. Then you get to play with the cab controls, on the back cab wall. Is it a controling unit, with long hood forward? or a intermediate unit? or a trailing unit with its long hood forward, controled by a unit running with short hood forward? Long hood forward? Lots of fun there. Diesels dont really care which way you run them, but engineers do, thats why when you see two engines MUed, most of the time you see one facing each way, one forward and one to the rear, its easier to just walk from one to the other than try to turn, or wye the consist.
That said, when we are using a dedicated set on a switching lead, both face in the same direction, that being the direction of the switching, and the engineer runs from the rear unit, to provide him with more protection in case we screw up, he has a entire locomotive in front of him to take the punishment. These units are often left MUed for months at a time, and move around as one locomotive, to the fuel rack and sander, ect. Even get serviced together, and have their 90 day insepctions done together. Its just easier than messing with taking them apart, and putting them back together. If by some change, they leave the yard to work as a industry switch job, or a "road" job, the engineer will leave them facing the way the yard crew has them, because they will be returning to the switching lead the next day, and its to much trouble for both crews to re-arrange them.
Stay Frosty,
Ed, at the PTRA, not HB&T.

[edblysard]

Hi Again Muddy and Jen,
Wow, you guys are tough...Ha Ha ha..ok?In a seriousness, its cheaper to wye the locomotives that it is to maintain a turntable. Plus, look at it from this point of view. If you goof, and dump a locomotive in to the table pit, the cost of having a mobile crane capable of lifting a locomotive show up is $5000.00. Thats right, just to show up, not do anything, its $5000.00 to call them out, flat rate. Then they get to charge you by the hour. So you can see the dollar savings right there. No, not too many railroads keeps wreck trains anymore, so they dont have their own crane. And yes, if you have a turntable, some one, at sometime, will goof. Add to that the fact that most turntables are at the round house or service track lead, well, if you got one in the pit, how do you get the rest of your locomotives out of the house and to work? As for the light bulb issue, 1:they dont leave spares on the motors, their afraid we will steal them, like I have a use for a Phillips 74 volt light bulb? And 2: I am not a electrician, and I aint sticking my hand inside a cabinet that has a big red warning lable that says, "Danger, 600 volts DC" 3: I aint sticking my hand inside....cluck cluck cluck
Now, in reality, most of those Union work rules are really federal requirements. If the overhead light or dome light dosnt work, the feds say it has to be repaired, and by someone trained in electrical work. Same for repairing cars, I cant change the bearings in a wheel set. Well, I can, I know how, but the feds say only qualified car repairmen may repair cars used in interchange service. Same thing for a headlight, I know how to change them, its not rocket science, but if I did change it out, and it failed during service and caused a accident, the feds would fine me, and I would be fired, because I dont have a journeyman or master electrician license, and federal law says they are the only people who can legally repair that part. In reality, most crews, if the overhead light didnt work, or a step light was out, would just blow it off, and go about their work, using their lantrens to read the work orders, but yes, there are some guys who use the rules and regs to delay the job, and earn as much overtime as they can. But not as many as you would think.
And last, a lot of railroads have service technicans from GE and EMD based at their main service centers. When we bought the MK1500ds, part of the sale included a service contract, just like what you buy for your new car, from Motive Power Inc. They dont want us to change a light bulb, or any other part for that matter. They, (MPI) want their guys to do it, because part of their job is to track part failures, they need to know how many times the rocker switch behind the throttle handle fails(lots) and how often do the steps light burn out, (not a lot) and how much fule is this unit using per hour compaired to that one, and why? Believe it or not, a lot of the newer locomotives are under warranty, again, just like your car. Yes, if the windshiels wiper in front of the engineer comes apart, I will take my trusty screwdriver on my keychain, and swipe one off the rear window, and stick it on the front, because I dont want my engineer to try to run the locomotive with his head stuck out the window in the rain, and I feel a whole lot better knowing he can see where we are going. Beyond that, your right, its not my job.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

Maybe if you had written text books when I went to school, I would have enjoyed it more!

I understand about the lights, bulbs, etc (this was just a plain light bulb for human needs)

And...would a turntable have to have a pit? (I need to go now and buy a good crane!)

[Mookie]

I used to be able to watch the one in the yard here - from the window of a car. It just seems now that it was more efficient than taking these units out on a turn around town to get them where they are going. I am waiting for some brilliant person to figure out how to make one and not have a pit so my crane I am going to buy won't be needed. (No I am not holding my breath!) I know I am not very mechanically-minded, but it just seems to me to be a more efficient way to do things. Especially with the size of the yard we have here and the many tracks we have! But....I do enjoy watching the "airings" of the engines as they go for their joy-ride!

[Mookie]

I wonder if the general public has any idea that you have to be reasonably intelligent to work on a railroad - it isn't just get on an engine and ride around!

I was always impressed by the Book of Rules Testing - do they still do that? You had to have all the rules committed to memory and be tested on them at random.

Sounds to me like you must be able to use math, science, be a mechanical engineer, a good memory, good eyesight and weatherproof.

Peanut Gallery

[bigboy4024]

hey jen i live in minnesota, and i do stuff that no 18 year old in my school dose. every labor day weekend i work at a antique tractor show near fargo. our railroad gose 2 1/4 miles around the show. we have two stam locomotives (soo line 353 and dresser traprock quary 3and 5)( 5 was used as parts for 3). we have a move by man powerd turntable, and every time (during the show) we get a crowd around the pit. to watch us turn the locomotives to put thim in the roundhouse. so if you want to see one in use come over to minnesota labor day weekend or check it out on the web at www.rollag.com. big boy 4024

[Mookie]

Boy do I love your handle - I am a real Big Boy fan!

I saw a turntable in use here in Lincoln back when they still had one in use. I have seen tapes of the man-powered turn tables. What part of MN are you in? I have family in Bemidji.

Never saw the Big Boy in action, but had an old engineer who was on one when they were running. He told me all about the entire engine (the one that was in Omaha in the park) Very interesting

Jen

[edblysard]

FRA mandates that we be tested on the operating and safety rules and the GCOR every two years.
Once recertified, we are issued new a switchmen license. The time frame for engineers may be diffrent, I know they have to pass a eyesight and hearing test also.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Modelcar]

....Locomotives are, or at least were the last time I visited, turned on the turntable by man power at Orbisonia, Pa. on the EBT narrow guage.
Wonder why a turntable couldn't be constructed with a center support [bearing], at ground level as well as the rail circle that supports the ends of the structure at near that level and...the length of the structure supported like a through girder bridge...Hence all at approx. ground level and just a hint of a pit.

QM

[bigboy4024]

i live about 30 miles west from minneapolis in a town called delano on highway 12. where the turn tabel that i was refering to (that i operate)is in a really small town (blink twice and you have gone thrugh)about 45 miuntes from fargo (minnesota side)called rollag. i was previously farmallkidf20 then i decided to change my screan name to the one i am now. big boy 4024

[edblysard]

Hi QM,
You just described the Milby street roundhouse turntable, except it has a pit. Reason for the pit? How elese are you going to service the center bearing? You cant go through the top, the bearing is a load bearing surface. You have to be able to support and lift the table off the bearing when you replace it. A "hint of a pit" would not allow you access to it, and do no more than collect rainwater, at ground level, and flood your bearing. A pit, on the other hand, allows you to reach and service the bearing, and allows you to support both ends of the table with jacks when you need to replace the bearing. It also gives rainwater somewhere to go, the one at Milby has a drain and a sump pump.
Back when steam was the ruler, it mattered which way the locomotive faced, even when doubleheading, both had to face the same way, so you needed a way to turn them around. With diesels, it dosn't matter which way they face, and the need for turntables and the added cost of maintaining them was no longer effecient.
Oh, as for worrying about getting one in the pit, it dosnt matter where you derail a locomotive, in a three inch pit or a three foot one, its still on the ground, and you still have to call a wreck service to bring their mobil crane out, ($5000.00) and pick up your locomotive. Thats $5000.00 just to show up, not do any work, after they show up, you are charged by the hour. Most railroads no longer keep wreck trains, the maintainence expense is too great, and the time and money needed to get a crew on them and get them to the wreck is expensive, real expensive. Its cheaper to call one of the companies who specialize in wreck clean up, they can drive to most wreck sites within hours. And every hour your main is blocked by a derailed car or locomotive is money lost.
And your turntable will be near or on the lead into your locomotive shop or roundhouse so its quick to use, right? Because you dont want to run your motors all around the place just to turn them. So, if all of your locomotives are in the house, to be serviced for duty, (fuled and sanded, toilet paper and crew packs and such) and someone goofs and dumps one in the pit, how are the rest of your locomotives going to get to work?
If your wondering why I seem to not be a fan of turntables, well, we had one here at the PTRA, long before I came to work here. The above mentioned problems occured about once a month, to the point that we parked our wreck crane beside the table, because murphey's law rules.
Some of our old heads worked here back in the days, and still laugh about it. When we went to diesels, the PTRA pulled up the table, and I mean pulled it up. The hooked the crane to one end, picked it up and sat it on the edge of the pit, picked up the other end and set it down on the same side, and chained the table to a locomotive, and drug it away from the pit down the lead. They then dumped it in a ditch beside the house lead, and its still there, under several feet of mud and gravel. Five switches and two house leads and a crossover replaced it, in 1954. They filled the pit in with ballast, and paved over it, its under our diesel fuel and sanding towers.
No one misses it at all. And our wreck crane was sold as scrap three years ago, it couldnt pick up the locomotives we use now, they are too heavy.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[Mookie]

Ed - I read thru this 3 times and finally have figured out what you are talking about (you can't see gestures in an e-mail) - but it raises some more questions.

RR's no longer take the wreck trains - so a wrecking co picks up cars & I assume engines and then what? If an engine is badly damaged where does it go and how does it get there? This isn't a small item. Same with cars - where and how?

I can see where a turntable could be a problem, but it seems a shame that there is so much wasted energy in moving them literally way out of the yard and thru neighborhoods to get them back into the yard. Guess this is progress.

Jen

[wabash1]

Jenny..on the line i work we still use the turntable if we need a engine turned this is the only way we can get one turned.(at the major hub.) now at our outlying points there is a wye track which also doubles as a switching lead to plants and as you can guess accesses in either direction.as far as MU a engine its not hard and i have never had any trouble with this. the jumpers dont go bad as it was led to believe by someone else. all it takes is about 10 min with someone wanting to work to do this. the just of it is you have 4 hoses 2chains and one cable to be done and a brake test.

As far as ed sayss about the sticking your hand into the cabinits marked 600volts sometimes that is what we haft to do out on line of road to get these units in. it depends on what you are touching. and if unit is loading or in dynamic if things are energized. i have not been hurt burned or anything else yet. and we talk to shop personel while we are doing this. they will tell you if you need a flag stick to move these contacts or anything else you should know.

[edblysard]

Jenny, with Locomotives, if you can get them back on the rail, you can tow them in, most of the time. If you can't tow them, then the wrecking company will make arangements for a special flat bed trailer, (yes, they do make them that big), but only if there is suitable road access to the site. If not, there are special flatcars the railroad will bring out, or the wrecking company will arrange for it, its part of the package. If the trucks are damaged, and will not roll, the railroad will send out a new set, remember, the wrecking company can pick up the locomotive, so puting a set of trucks under a damaged locomotive or car, while not easy, can be done if needed. Same with the wrecked cars, if they will roll safely, you re rail them and drag them to the nearest yard for disposition, if not, they are loaded on flat cars also, or cut up at the site. You have the photos I sent you of the MK1500d with the pipe thru the cab and engine compartment, we cut the ends of the pipe off, and towed it back to the yard for repair.(actually, the shop robs parts of it to repair other units, I dont expect it to ever run again)
If time permits, I will try to get by Manchester yard today, we have a customer who disposes of wrecked cars that are damaged beyone repair, they cut them up and recycle what they can, the rest is dumped into a deep well site. We have a entire track of wrecked cars on flatcars, I will try to get you a photo.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

Well, that was simple enuf! I have to get over the thinking that something that big isn't manageable. We have shops here in Lincoln and I see long lines of cars waiting for service. I haven't a clue if they do any engine work here in the city, but I do know they do cars of all kinds.

The photo you sent me - I can see why they would use it for parts only - that looked like it took the heart right out of it!

Jen

[edblysard]

Yeah, j,
But Ed and electricity made a deal a long time ago, when Ed stepped on a bare, 440 volt 3 phase cord to a milling machine.
Ed dosnt mess with electricity, and it dosnt mess with him.
Cluck cluck cluck...
Ed dosnt mess with anything above the current his car creates.
Ed will happily pay someone who is skilled, knowledgable and trained, and who have no nervous system left, to play with anything over 12 volts.
Thats how Ed Stays Frosty,...

[Mookie]

They wouldn't have to worry about me sticking my fingers anywhere! I would probably coax my co-worker into doing it!

[Modelcar]

...Yes Ed, I understand the type of problems you describe when using a turntable. I'm sure a railroad and employees are glad to get rid of them.

I'm recalling the one that is at the center of the Baltimore and Ohio R R Museum in Baltimore. To me, that is an unusual application. In fact, that is the only one I've ever seen a picture of being located at the center of a building as such.

I suppose most turntables have been filled in around the country...understand the engines used now...do not have the need to be turned as did the steamers.

Ed...you mention the cost of lifting out an engine that has plunged down into the pit and that reminds me of the GG1 that they dumped into Union Station in Washington D C many years ago and then it's weight caused it to crash down through the floor to another level. I suppose they paid a good sum of money to extract that out of that situation plus all the damage caused.

Happy Easter...QM

[edblysard]

Yup, bet it was a hefty chunk of change...
Didnt the built a floor over it for a while, something about...Eisenhower's inauguration?, and they didnt have time to remove it before they needed the station?
I think the name of the wreck company we use it Helms, not sure, lucky me, I havent caused enough damage to need them...yet.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[wabash1]

From toasty to frosty. LOL...

[Modelcar]

....Boy, that rings a bell. I had forgoten about what you mention about the inauguration but building that temp. floor sure sounds right. Have been in that edifice a few years ago and they sure did a beautiful job on the renovation some years back...It sure is beautiful now...and all the floors are intact.

QM

[edblysard]

Still have the scar on the bottom of my foot.
Frosty is better....
Ed

[Anonymous]

Tim, I disagree to a point. The bean counters are hemorraging dollars to save nickles. The RRs have gotten away from railroad men running the show to college grads that don't know a wet fart from a frog. Their business classes may have tought them how to run the numbers, but, have missed the boat on operating a RR.