Gunn Speaks Out

[Anonymous]

Is it safe to come out now...FOFLMAO...

LC

[jeaton]

Like Idaho really has to worry about terrorists from foreign nations.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

I can see logical won't convince this forest. I will shut my yap. Also I would highly suggest everyone reread won't Ross Rowland said. What I don't like is Iraq and Amtrak are entirely seperate matters. One is a transportation system no-one in this state can even use. The other is a WAR in which we are kicking some terrorist rear-end.
I am finished here, carry on with the dogma.

So much for dented karma

[edbenton]

Yes I finally got him to be quiet

[Anonymous]

I can see logical won't convince this forest. I will shut my yap. Also I would highly suggest everyone reread won't Ross Rowland said. What I don't like is Iraq and Amtrak are entirely seperate matters. One is a transportation system no-one in this state can even use. The other is a WAR in which we are kicking some terrorist rear-end.
I am finished here, carry on with the dogma.

[edbenton]

W Bush qualificaions None. He has no clue what is going on. even his staff say we can not bring the bad news if we do we are out of a job. So much for compassinate conservitism unless you are haliburtian. then uit is here is the key to the Treasury take whatever you want out of it no one will care.

[BaltACD]

Minetta's qualifications for his position....He stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once. :(

[edbenton]

Louts you are the typical NEOCONSERVETIVE regardless how much conflicting data you get. You only beleive what you want to beleive. I know Amtrak is a money pit but it is no worse that the 3 billion it is going to cost to expand ohare or the money pit that is Iraq. Even the Iraqis want us out now and that is from their goverment. So 2 words B*** ME!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by co614

IMHO David Gunn was the first capable CEO since W.G.Claytor,Jr. What he and his team were able to accomplish in the last 3 years DESPITE an Administration dedicated to destroying Amtrak,was truly remarkable. Therein lies his doom.
Had he been another bungler like Warrington he'd still be there. His successes were ruining the Administrations game plan to implode the Company, and they feared that further progress would surely end any chance of getting rid of it.
Firing Gunn however may yet prove a very stupid strategic move as it has substantially energized many in Congress who heretofore were not all that caring on this topic and has led several key members of Congress to put the Administration on notice that it expects 4 new nominees for the Amtrak BOD shortly after the Holidays and that they will be people with credentials in the field, and the recently approved enabling legislation is being "codified" with language insuring the continuance AND future expansion of the LDT's.
From the 5 years I served on the BOD(1982-87) I can tell you first hand that at the end of the day the game is decided in the halls of Congress, not in the White House nor the DOT.
The next few months should be very interesting to say the least!!
Ross Rowland

For those wanting to know a little more about Ross Rowland try this website:

http://www.co614.com/history.htm

I first found out he was a member here about a year ago. Heck, that is longer than some people have been on this forum. [;)] But maybe this will add a little weight to his previous post. Of course some people will never accept his knowledge and experience or that it means anything.

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098
Also I think that carrier is a bit more important than trains that most people can't afford to, and don't ride on. With the exception of commuters Amtrak is not very useful, it doesn’t haul express good or mail, we need to do something; and Gunn didn’t want to do anything, in fact in the interview he states that if we just keep throwing money at the problem; which as history has proven never works.

It sounds like you're quoting one of Minetta's statements that has already been proven wrong about the Amtrak statistics. The "trains that most people can't afford" part falls apart if you've ever tried to check availability of accomodations on a train, for example the Sunset Limited. Even though it doesn't run all the way to Orlando since the Gulf Coast took all that damage from Katrina, there's no Bedrooms available through July of next year (that's where I gave up checking).

The other part about "and don't ride on" sounds like another of his infamous misspeaks where he stated that trains were running empty. The ridership figures show this to be outright WRONG.

As far as "Gunn didn't want to do anything" he didn't want to destroy Amtrak by making it another plum to hand out to Bush cronies that were probably as well versed in running a railroad as a former horse judge was at running an Emergency Management Agency. His big mistake was building Amtrak into a viable,efficient running operation which would make it harder to justify breaking it up and parceling it out this way.

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098
Ah-ha, it's the old "but the airlines do it" ploy. I was thinking about this with the NEC, wouldn't having Amtrak own the track but other trains running on it be similar to the way all airlines run on government maintained airports? Railroads even in heavy traffic zones don't have too much problem with other railroads running on trackage rights, so why is the NEC so much different? Even PRB coal trains have to keep schedules.

Unfortunately James, the analogy falls apart right after the planes get off the ground and up to cruising altitude. They can fly at many different altitudes and on routes that keep them separated by more than a safe margin laterally. Even with this advantage, the air lanes in the eastern US are reaching capacity.

This is the big difference, there's only an average of four tracks wide of routes in the NEC and over 60 trains each direction every weekday (I counted them in the timetable), and they all travel at the same altitude. And this only counts the trains run by Amtrak, not the local commuter agencies using the Amtrak owned tracks.

The BIG difference is sheer volume of trains in a relatively small area. The right of way occupies an area about as wide as a 6 lane highway (small by northeast standards) and moves MANY times the passengers as the 6 lane highway would be able to handle. Also, since this part of the country has been settled for a couple hundred years, the real estate to expand the roads or the railroads just isn't available.

The number of trains on the Powder River Basin tracks doesn't even come close.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

Hey lotus 100 billion to the airlines in the last 4 yrs mean anything to you plus all of the bankrupt ones dumping the peinsions on the goverment to pay. that adds another 22 billion just from United alone with Delta and northwest maybe another 10 billion. Amtrack in 35 years has recived 35-40 billion 1/3 of what the airlines have gotten since 9/11. And what I am talking about is the cash just given to them to keep them afloat. This does not include the subsisedized cost of the ATC program. What we spend on Amtrak a year is about what is takes to fund the building of a Nimitz class carrier per year. Maybe Bush is trying to finish his dads carrier before he dies. The next carrier to be commisioned is th George HW Bush in 2 years.. Lotus just remember this I am a Republican and I can not stand W Bush either.

Ah-ha, it's the old "but the airlines do it" ploy. I was thinking about this with the NEC, wouldn't having Amtrak own the track but other trains running on it be similar to the way all airlines run on government maintained airports? Railroads even in heavy traffic zones don't have too much problem with other railroads running on trackage rights, so why is the NEC so much different? Even PRB coal trains have to keep schedules.

Also I think that carrier is a bit more important than trains that most people can't afford to, and don't ride on. With the exception of commuters Amtrak is not very useful, it doesn’t haul express good or mail, we need to do something; and Gunn didn’t want to do anything, in fact in the interview he states that if we just keep throwing money at the problem; which as history has proven never works.

No, maintaining an airport with several carriers is not the same thing as having separate NEC ownership. A better analogy would be if the tower at the airport and the runway maintenance crew belonged to different companies.

You are wrong about RRs operating with trackage rights on heavy traffic lanes. This is a HUGE deal to the RRs and not easily handled.

PRB coal trains do not adhere to schedules with any precision coming anything close to what's required on the NEC, particularly between Trenton and NYP.

Which are these Amtrak trains that "most people can't afford and don't ride"? I'm not aware of any that fit this description.

You can make a case that we don't get much for what we spend on Amtrak, but lets stick to some facts.

Also, does it bother you at all that the critizisms that Mineta has of Amtrak from the GAO report by and large rest with the Amtrak board, of which he is a memeber (and he never has attended a board meeting) and of which Mr. Gunn is NOT a member?

[Modelcar]

....Simply look on page 2 for Mr. Rowland's post.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

You have a Bush fixation don't you? How.........why........you would have such a blind admiration for the Bush administration is very strange indeed.

Gunn was fired because he spoke against the administration's lack of positive action of Amtrak and he wanted to fix it. Plain and simple, those morons on the board wouldn't know how to run a railroad if their lives depended on it. If I'm not mistaken, the best way to do something is be honest which is what Jesse Ventura did-when asked about his platform he said he didn't know what should be done but he would hire folk who knew what they were doing-brilliant. Sounds like Bush needs to learn from Ventura.

Gunn, did nothing, and got fired. We got Gunn because he was supposed to know how to run a railroad, but he didn't do anything to fix the problems. If you listen what he was trying to stop, was to the destruction of Amtrak, but a reform to a flawed system. As Mineta said we shouldn't keep pumping money into a flawed system; but Gunn wouldn’t allow it to be changed. In the interview Gunn blames Bush for his firing. If Gunn is so great, what did he do that was saving Amtrak? Gunn clearly put it out in the interview money should just be kept being pumped into Amtrak, with no major changes. He must be very conceited to believe that he can make it work, when it hasn’t worked in about 30 years.

M I S S O U R I

How ya doin?

[:D]Hiya Jim, on behave of us oldtimers here on the forum, your so right![;)]

Lets see if a similar fate awaits[xx(]

For the rest of ya..remember what I said about talking to some people is like talking to trees, you can talk all you want, but they dont hear a thing your saying. [X-)][D)]

Gunn Rules, Mineta Drools[;)]

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Can you please show me some facts? Again you state “Bush hates Amtrak”, and he may; and again “Gunn was doing a good job”, and he may have been what evidence do you have? Amtrak is a bottomless pit. We keep throwing money at it, and any time anyone suggests anything else, you say they are trying to destroy it. We need to get Amtrak as something other than a slower than dog meat service that caters only to the rich. The idea of having private railroad run on the NEC would bring competition to a monoploly. Bush in his plan suggests that the states fund Amtrak, which is still being paid for by our tax dollars either way. The idea of breaking off the NEC doesn't sound outrageous either. What you’re trying to do is make sure that 14 stays on welfare forever.

James-

You are clearly shooting from the hip.

Please take some time and research Gunn's resume and credentials. Then, research his record at Amtrak. Finally, take a look at the reform proposal that he and the Amtrak Board put together last April.

Then, and only then, will you be in a reasonable position to critize without guessing at what you don't know (and getting it wrong most of the time)

There is plenty of room for critizism, but you are way off base.

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Lotus
Sometimes I wonder if you read any of the posts before you launch into your drivel. If you check back a few you will find a post by Ross Rowland. He, as I, and many other people who have suggested that Gunn's firing was a mistake, have made railroad transportation a career spanning many more years than you have been alive.

OK Jeaton, I'm missing something here. Where are the posts on here by Ross Rowland, and what screen name is he using?

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

At the moment I am not sure his firing was a mistake. I am not getting all the facts. I know why he was fired, but you haven't told me what he did that was so great. Gunn made have been holding down the fort, but he hasn't done anything spectacular. I don't know if any replacements we haven't heard about are out there. I don't want to hear your opinions and copy them. I want to know the all the facts and decide for myself. I have asked for three occasions for the data, and you have refused to answer me. BTW I think Ross Rowland has a very good point, he pointed our what I was saying about congress; and I respect his opinion to the utmost.
For the umpteenth time.
WHAT HAS GUNN DONE TO REFORM AMTRAK?
WHERE HAS MINETA SAID HE IS TRYING DO DESTROY AMTRAK
I know he wants to completely change the system, I know he didn't want to give it "federal funding," but these are hardly trying to destroy Amtrak. I am quite sorry if acted as if I knew these answers, I am truly curious. But without these I don't see how anyone can make a decision. All I have heard is Gunn wouldn't do anything, so he got fired; this may be true, I haven't heard otherwise, except for your "opinions."

James, if you have a copy of the November 2005 issue of Trains magazine (one of the magazines published by the sponsors of this forum board), there's an excellent article that should answer most of your questions about "what has Gunn done for Amtrak." Also, the references to the accolades placed on Gunn by other government transportation officials seems to add more confusion to whay he was fired.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

Hey lotus 100 billion to the airlines in the last 4 yrs mean anything to you plus all of the bankrupt ones dumping the peinsions on the goverment to pay. that adds another 22 billion just from United alone with Delta and northwest maybe another 10 billion. Amtrack in 35 years has recived 35-40 billion 1/3 of what the airlines have gotten since 9/11. And what I am talking about is the cash just given to them to keep them afloat. This does not include the subsisedized cost of the ATC program. What we spend on Amtrak a year is about what is takes to fund the building of a Nimitz class carrier per year. Maybe Bush is trying to finish his dads carrier before he dies. The next carrier to be commisioned is th George HW Bush in 2 years.. Lotus just remember this I am a Republican and I can not stand W Bush either.

Ah-ha, it's the old "but the airlines do it" ploy. I was thinking about this with the NEC, wouldn't having Amtrak own the track but other trains running on it be similar to the way all airlines run on government maintained airports? Railroads even in heavy traffic zones don't have too much problem with other railroads running on trackage rights, so why is the NEC so much different? Even PRB coal trains have to keep schedules.

Also I think that carrier is a bit more important than trains that most people can't afford to, and don't ride on. With the exception of commuters Amtrak is not very useful, it doesn’t haul express good or mail, we need to do something; and Gunn didn’t want to do anything, in fact in the interview he states that if we just keep throwing money at the problem; which as history has proven never works.

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jockellis

G'day, Y'all,
How many states does the Northeast Corridor serve? Three? Four? I certainly don't want my Congressmen to be voting those states funds to help what's left of AMTRAK after the administration gets through with it. Even with the passenger count , commuter rail service in the NEC will still cost government some money. I don't mind the money being spent there as long as Georgia gets some trains.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A
Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers

The Northeast Corridor runs from Boston, Massachusetts to Washington DC, so that would include Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Conneticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Washington DC (technically, not part of any state). So that count would be seven states and the District of Columbia.

[Anonymous]

At the moment I am not sure his firing was a mistake. I am not getting all the facts. I know why he was fired, but you haven't told me what he did that was so great. Gunn made have been holding down the fort, but he hasn't done anything spectacular. I don't know if any replacements we haven't heard about are out there. I don't want to hear your opinions and copy them. I want to know the all the facts and decide for myself. I have asked for three occasions for the data, and you have refused to answer me. BTW I think Ross Rowland has a very good point, he pointed our what I was saying about congress; and I respect his opinion to the utmost.
For the umpteenth time.
WHAT HAS GUNN DONE TO REFORM AMTRAK?
WHERE HAS MINETA SAID HE IS TRYING DO DESTROY AMTRAK
I know he wants to completely change the system, I know he didn't want to give it "federal funding," but these are hardly trying to destroy Amtrak. I am quite sorry if acted as if I knew these answers, I am truly curious. But without these I don't see how anyone can make a decision. All I have heard is Gunn wouldn't do anything, so he got fired; this may be true, I haven't heard otherwise, except for your "opinions."

[jeaton]

Lotus
Sometimes I wonder if you read any of the posts before you launch into your drivel. If you check back a few you will find a post by Ross Rowland. He, as I, and many other people who have suggested that Gunn's firing was a mistake, have made railroad transportation a career spanning many more years than you have been alive.

I can dismiss you because I know that you are nothing more than an arrogant, snotty kid.
But when you show a total lack of respect for someone who has actually been involved in the process... Well I guess some people can be fooled all the time.

[jockellis]

G'day, Y'all,
I think we can agree that Ross Rowland knows railroading and can give an accurate assessment of David Gunn's stewardship of AMTRAK. But Mineta and DOT? Didn't I read recently that a railroad exec asked Mineta how many real railroaders had been consulted concerning the feasibility before the administration's plan for AMTRAK was made and Mineta finally admitted that no experts had been consulted? I think Gunn is the Only AMTRAK president to admit that rail passenger service will all cost the government money. The rest told Congress what it wanted to hear. The problem with transportation is that nothing actually pays for itself; the government must dole out money for its continued existance. When the federal government started the interstate program, it failed to include a penny for upkeep. This year transportation experts said the highways and byways of America needed $375 billion in maintenance. The administration gave $268 billion of federal taxes for all forms of transportation. So our roads and cridges are still crumbling.
How many states does the Northeast Corridor serve? Three? Four? I certainly don't want my Congressmen to be voting those states funds to help what's left of AMTRAK after the administration gets through with it. Even with the passenger count , commuter rail service in the NEC will still cost government some money. I don't mind the money being spent there as long as Georgia gets some trains.
And being a non destructive testing (NDT) inspector, I have my doubts about the validity of the FRA's sidelining of the Acela units because what I read in the papers, on the internet and on the Trains.com rail news, seems to prove to me that America's elite, administration-hating media can be just as gullible in reporting "facts" as can anyone else.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A
Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Can you please show me some facts? Again you state “Bush hates Amtrak”, and he may; and again “Gunn was doing a good job”, and he may have been what evidence do you have? Amtrak is a bottomless pit. We keep throwing money at it, and any time anyone suggests anything else, you say they are trying to destroy it. We need to get Amtrak as something other than a slower than dog meat service that caters only to the rich. The idea of having private railroad run on the NEC would bring competition to a monoploly. Bush in his plan suggests that the states fund Amtrak, which is still being paid for by our tax dollars either way. The idea of breaking off the NEC doesn't sound outrageous either. What you’re trying to do is make sure that 14 stays on welfare forever.

James, I'm not sure what you mean by "Amtrak is a bottomless pit," unless you also consider the tax money dropped into the airports, air traffic control system, and highways as a bottomless pit in the same vein.

Amtrak is hardly a "slower than dog meat service that caters only to the rich." Take for example the route of the Empire Builder. Several states across the route push for the subsidy because it's the only public transportation available in many of the communities along its route. Rich people don't use and have no need for public transportation.

The idea of having one entity run the Northeast Corridor and another own and maintain it is a folly explained better in the interview with Gunn on the NPR link. This is the disagreement point that Gunn claims led to his firing. As I've said in other posts, I'm more inclined to listen to an experienced rairoad passenger manager than a political appointee that doesn't even know the basics about how a railroad works.

It's one of those things like "open access," sounds great in theory, but as soon as you try to figure out the logistics of actually running a railroad under these rules, the whole concept falls on its face. The shear traffic density in the NEC almost makes it impossible to have it run by separate entities. Most railroads with a high density corridor have a hard enough time getting the operation and track departments to work together, a problem only to be made worse by having the departments actually be two separate companies.

Go to the Amtrak website and request a hard copy of the timetable. Then look at the number of trains and times that they run. Pulling one track out of service for major repairs for even a day would throw a serious monkey wrench into the whole operation without proper coordination between the two departments.

[edbenton]

Hey lotus 100 billion to the airlines in the last 4 yrs mean anything to you plus all of the bankrupt ones dumping the peinsions on the goverment to pay. that adds another 22 billion just from United alone with Delta and northwest maybe another 10 billion. Amtrack in 35 years has recived 35-40 billion 1/3 of what the airlines have gotten since 9/11. And what I am talking about is the cash just given to them to keep them afloat. This does not include the subsisedized cost of the ATC program. What we spend on Amtrak a year is about what is takes to fund the building of a Nimitz class carrier per year. Maybe Bush is trying to finish his dads carrier before he dies. The next carrier to be commisioned is th George HW Bush in 2 years.. Lotus just remember this I am a Republican and I can not stand W Bush either.

[Modelcar]

...Dave....Don't forget the "B" and "C" cards...and even "T" cards...{stickers} as well.....

[Modelcar]

...I've been watching Amtrak since it's creation...and followed the info as it went from station to station of time....I fully agree with Mr. Ross Rowland's comments about Mr. Gunn...A real railroad Ex. and do'er....Guess It's a mystery to me why opinions of some give him such low marks.....But then, I'm not surprised.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

I still say Mineta was not doing his job, and if he had been, Gunn would have known he could get support and he would have called Mineta and said: "That dumb mayor woun't let me evacuate the helpless on a 20 car train leaving New Orleans in a few hours" and Mineta would have called Bush who would have read the riot act to the mayor and lives would have been saved.

But if Mineta would really have been doing his job we would have the very necessary National Public Transportation System in place, ready to react to any kind of emergency like Katrina or 11.09.01 or whatever, and the Mayor would have been given a preplanned scnereo adapted specifically to New Orleans. And the buses and trains would have arrived and the school buses would have been be part of anused. This would INTELLIGENT national transportation policy that would make for a strong USA. I remember the A-cards and WWII rationing and the USAmust be prepared for that kind of situation again.

How does Mineta know about every Amtrak train leaving New Orleans? The mayor had already gotten a call from Amtrak. Mineta is not supposed to make up for every bungler who decided to toss their plan for that particular city right out the window. Let us review the facts:
1. New Orleans had a city specific evacuation plan, to get people without cars out first.
2. The buses were there, Mr. Nagin decided his people were too good for school busses, and didn’t use them.
3. The trains were running up to the last minute, but Mr. Nagin decided his people were too good for an Amtrak train.
Everything you suggest was in place except for another layer of bureaucracy

I am intrigued here, what do you mean by a National Public Transportation System in place? Do you mean on top of the best highway system in the world, or do you mean some sort free (i.e. tax payer provided) Amtrak service?

[Anonymous]

Can you please show me some facts? Again you state “Bush hates Amtrak”, and he may; and again “Gunn was doing a good job”, and he may have been what evidence do you have? Amtrak is a bottomless pit. We keep throwing money at it, and any time anyone suggests anything else, you say they are trying to destroy it. We need to get Amtrak as something other than a slower than dog meat service that caters only to the rich. The idea of having private railroad run on the NEC would bring competition to a monoploly. Bush in his plan suggests that the states fund Amtrak, which is still being paid for by our tax dollars either way. The idea of breaking off the NEC doesn't sound outrageous either. What you’re trying to do is make sure that 14 stays on welfare forever.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well, let's look at this from a money perspective, since that is really what this is all about. The president sees Amtrak as a waste, and a bottomless pit. This is why in his budget proposal discussed earlier in this topic, recommended $0 for Amtrak.

The board who fired Mr Gunn, had actually complimented him on his progress with cost cutting in certain areas of their plan, earlier in the year. This is why the firing smacks of political motivation, and what upset many members of the congressional subcommittee at the hearing.

Amtrak in it's current form will always need financial support. It is unrealistic to expect otherwise.

What the president wants to do is much like sending a 14 year old out into the world and expecting him to survive on his own with no support.

James, would your parents do that to you? I seriously doubt it. Would you survive if they did? My guess is maybe, but it wouldn't be the lifestyle you are used to.

Mr Gunn was doing a pretty good job trying to raise this "child", to a level where it could survive without being on "welfare".