Railfan alert - Arizona law would make trespassing

[Anonymous]

The Arizona State House and Senate have both passed SB1059, which in the name of fighting terrorism would make "entering or remaining unlawfully in or on a critical public service facility" a class 6 felony. That bill defines a critical public service facility to include any "structure or fenced yard...used by rail, bus, air, or other mass transit provider".

Please, without getting into a debate or flamewar over whether or not entering rail yards to photograph trains is acceptable for railfans, I hope we can all agree that making it a felony is a bad thing and does not bode well for railfanning in general. This bill is going to the desk of Governor Janet Napolitano to be signed. Please take some time to contact her via her contact page, especially if you live in Arizona:

http://www.governor.state.az.us/post/feedback.htm

Follow that up with a call to her office at [phone], and urge her to veto SB 1059. Let's flood her desk and phone line with opposition to this bill. This is our last chance to stop SB 1059!

Here is a sample letter which you can cut and paste to the contact page, or rewrite as you see fit:

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Dear Governor Napolitano: I would like to urge you to veto SB 1059, which has just passed the Arizona State House. As you know this is a bill which is supposed to protect public service facilities from terrorism. However, I take strong issue with increasing the penalties from a misdemeanor to a felony, and in particular would like to bring to your attention that this bill would make it a felony to trespass in rail yards. There are many people ("railfans") whose hobby is photographing trains, and while it is good practice to respect the property rights of railroads and not trespass when doing so, sometimes this could involve entering rail yards or railroad property, sometimes inadvertently. I take strong issue with the fact that this bill, if it becomes law, would make felons out of many people becuase of their hobby. Would you please veto SB 1059 when it comes to your desk, and send it back to the legislature to be rewritten. Ideally it should only make trespassing on critical public service facilities (such as rail yards) a class 6 felony if such trespassing is done with the intent to commit a criminal act or an act of terrorism. Thank you.
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[edblysard]

Dear Governor Napolitano,
As a railroad employee, I strongly urge you veto SB 1059, which would make it a felony to tresspass on railroad property.
A dedicated terrorist has no regard for the laws of your state, or this nation for that matter. Making it a felony would in no way hinder or stop such a person from commiting any act of terrorism.
Rather, it would, in a extreme case, make a felon out of a simple tresspasser. Granted, tresspassing is a serious offense, in rail yards and on railroad property in paticular, due to the inheirent danger to the tresspasser.
But the cost of aressting, proscuting, and incarcerating someone for attempting to photograph a locomotive would, it seems, be better spent. The cost of that alone could pay for a Arizoina State Trooper, or offset the salary of several police officers, help pay for several new patrol cars, you see the point.
A stiffer monetary penalty for tresspassing in such areas would make more sense.
Enforcing SB 1059 would add a unnesscary burden to what is a already overworked and understaffed system, again, the money could be better spent.
And trust me, no matter what penalty you'r state involked, some railfans would still tresspass.
For the most part, and from personal experience, I can tell you that most railfans do not tresspass, in fact, they have such a affinity for "their" railroad that they may pose more of a benefit that a threat to any railroad, in that they often report damaged rail, switches and railcars, and, at expense to themselves in time and effort, contact the proper personel when they see tresspassers vandalizing railroad property.
If the intent of SB 1059 is to increase the number of inmates in the federal prison system, then it will succeed. If the intent is to prevent tresspassing, it will fail.
Please excersise that one talent most politicians seem to lose when elected to public office, common sense.
Veto SB 1059, and encourage your local railroads to built, in conjunction with the cities they serve, a railfan pavallion from which fans can enjoy, in safty, their hobby of trainwatching.
Thank you for your time,
Edward M. Blysard,
Switchman foreman/Engine foreman,
Port Terminal Railroad Assocation,
Houston Texas

[dknelson]

Given that Osama wants his troops to be suicide bombers, the "threat" of being treated as a felon in Arizona probably does not deter much terrorism.
I suppose it is also worth pointing out that in fact militant Islam has been making serious recruiting in our federal and state prisons. So maybe the terrorists would beg and plead to be convicted of a felony in Arizona!
Dave Nelson

[RudyRockvilleMD]

What would be the proposed penalties if one were convicted for trespassing on railroad property if SB 1059 was signed into law?

I agree SB 1059 is bad legislation, but I don't live in Arizona so I am sure the Governor would ignore any communication I might send her. I like both letters that i have seen so far; they get right down to the heart of the issue.

[Anonymous]

Has anyone contacted the railroad companies? I would be curious as to there opinion. They are the owners of the property. They pay the property tax's on the land and liability insurance on the property. (Much like you pay on your home and property) I believe rail fans have no say in this matter. Being railroad fans does not make us railroad owners.
I hope I have not offended anyone. That was not what I intended. I just wanted to point out that there is a side of this story that needs to be brought out before people starte writing letters to a State Official.
TIM ARGUBRIGHT

[edblysard]

Hi Tim,
Heres part of the answer.
There is a precept under law that like laws must treat all in a equal respect. In other words, if tresspassing on railroad property, (private property) is a felony, then tresspassing on your front lawn (private property) should be a felony too.
Unlike a capital crime, (murder) there is no diffrence, ie degrees of crime.
That too, is somewhat of a myth. A capital crimes refers to a single specific crime. Manslaughter, where a death occurs by accident. Aggravated manslaughter, where a death occures during the commission of another crime, such as a store robbery, where the criminal robs a convienence store, and runs over someone in the parking lot with the getaway car. Homicide, where the death of the indivdual is the intended action, but not pre-meditated, as in the heat of a argument someone is stabbed to death. Aggravated homicide, again, where the death of the person is related to the commission of another crime, say during the above mentioned robbery the store clerk fought the robber, and was shot to death to facilate a easier robbery.
Then there is pre-meditated homicide, what the TV cops shows refer to as murder in the first degree. This is where a murder is planned, weather for monatary gain, revenge, or just plain hatred. Regardless of the reason, the plan is followed through on, resulting in the death of the intended victim.
Tresspass has no such separation, it is simply tresspassing, being on private property without the express invitation and or consent of the property owner, regardless of your intent or actions.
Anyone arrested under SH1059, if prosecuted, would file an appeal, as a matter of course, claiming that the law was unjust in that they were treated differently than others charged with the same crime, regardless of where the crime happened. In due time SB1059 would be challenged in the Arizona State Supreme Court, and may end up in front of the U.S. Supreme Court. Most likely, the challenge would be upheld, and the law would be ruled un-enforceable.
As to what the railroads want? Well, they could really care less, as long as the cost to them to prosecute you is minimal, and the state wishes to take on the burden to prosecute.
As a side note, all laws must pass a simple test, the criteria is that to be considered constitutional, the law must have merit, and stand alone as a useful and enforceable law, and shall not require the enforcement of any other law to satisify it's enactment. As with a capital crime, each one must be a law unto itself, if not, the U.S. Surpreme will strike them. Its somewhat like the story of a horse thief. In Texas, it is still a part of the State Statues that conviction of stealing a horse is a hanging offense, when in fact, the U.S. Surpreme Court ruled that, just like stealing a automobile, stealing a horse is theft of property, and the punishment for both should be the same. Your not going to see a horse thief or a car thief hanged in Texas anytime soon, although in might not hurt to try. I have had one of each stolen, and it really can get you PO'ed.
Yes, I see your point, and agree that being a railfan in no way gives you or any other fan the right to tresspass, but, by the same token, it should not give law enforcement a special law to apply only to a select group of persons, in a few select instances or in a select fashion.
And, not to offend you, but isnt the Governor an elected represenitive of the people, elected by the people, to serve the people? I worked for the Texas State Attorneral General, which is an elected position, and never hesitated to advise anyone who felt a law needed to be changed to write him. By legal definitation, I was a Officer of the State of Texas,(read state offical) yet this in no way insulated me, or my employeer, from public scrunity and question. Quite the opposite, it should encourage a state offical to listen to, and respond to the wishes of those who elected them.
If not your elected representives, who hold office only to serve you, the people who elected them, then who else should you write to?
You should expect your lawmakers to uphold and follow the very laws they have sworn to protect and follow, and you should demand they write and pass laws to benefit the general populace, instead of a business, no matter how large that business may be. If they wont, or dont, then elect new lawmakers, and demand that when they write a new law, they should excerise the truest test of any law, the test of common sense.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed,

Just to clarify, a capital crime can be considered when a murder takes place during the commission of another felony offense, i.e. burglary and the property owner is murdered during the burglary.

Always trying to be frosty,

emory

[wabash1]

Ed in texas this may be true but in other states this may not be the case. I dont remeber the law word for word but there is a federal law in which if you hamper the movement of transportation ( example throwing switches derails shunting tracks soforth) in the course of slowing or derailing trains it is a felony and imposed a 10 year and 1 million dollar fine. Now i dont claim to be a exspert at the law but i have been told that a state can not take a law and not make it less severe but can make it more restrictive. If in the course of wanting that great picture you make the engineer go into emergency couse your standing on the tracks that is stopping transportation and there for breaking 2 laws, The things i have seen in the last month on are road is aimed at getting rid of the railfan. and has been working as i dont see them any more.

[edblysard]

Hi Emory,
Quite true, but felony tresspass with a camera in your hand?
Maybe with a bomb in your backpack.
And the law, or what part of it I have seen, makes no sense.
Besides, it would offer no deterence to anyone who is on property to comitt a crime anyway.
Unless you can fence in and patrol an entire railroad, you couldnt stop them.
If the DEA, US Marshals, Coast Guard and the ATFB cant even make a dent in the drug trade across our borders, which carries really stiff sentences, how can this law prevent a terrorist from doing what he wishes? It would seem to only serve as a trap, or worst, a showpiece, for politicans to show how "hard" they can be on terrorist, but will only serve to imprision some poor railfan who is in the wrong place at the wrong time.
And unless it makes specific reference to intent, and the ability to prove intent to commit a terrorist activity, it will not pass muster in the U.S.Surpreme Court.
So we are back to the useless law routine.
I feel the money and effort could be bette spent. Who wouldnt like a few more State Troopers, or a few more local patrol officers to cruise their neignborhood?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Hey j,
True, but you would have to prove the person intended to cause the engineer to place the train in emergency. If you could prove that, then they could be prosecuted on both charges, if not, then tresspass would be the only charge applied. Yes, federal law takes precedent, and states can not lessen the penalty, but may not add more. States can only impose punishment up to the limits set by federal statue.
And can you really see Tim in prison because he stepped across the tracks to get a better picture from the other side? It is a felony to impeed or hinder interstate commerce, or to tamper with any form of transportation that falls under the jurisdiction of the Surface Transportation Board. Which includes railroads.
But to show you how silly all this can get..
Last month, one of our switch crews finished their switching, in one of our more remote yards. They got through really quick, and didnt want to tell the tower/control they were done, for fear that they would be give extra work. All of them were in their early twenties, kids really. They got bored. Started throwing rocks. Got tired of trying to hit water cans, started to try for the overhead lights on the lightposts. Got a few, and like all stupid kids playing, got carried away, and ended up breaking about six of them.
Got caught. Now all three are fired, and face charges of aiding and abetting in terrorist activities. Yup, they are terrorist, because , in the eyes of our new homeland security, they could, (remember the word could) have been helping a terrorist by knocking out the lights so someone could sneak in under cover of darkness and commit a act of terrorism.
I bet those terrorist have about a million uses for tankcars full of rendered animal fat, or lard. Not to mention all those tankcars full of corn sweetner. Yup, enough of that stuff can kill a guy. Now the really stupid part. They confessed, said "yes, we were stupid, and got carried away, and were just plain dumb". All three offered to pay for the repairs, about $600.00 per light . No dice, the locals want to see these kids in federal prison, because of six broken street lights, in a railyard miles from anything or anybody, full of cars, the most hazardous of which contains raw crisco. Now, I dont condone their actions, after all, the lights they broke provided the only real light in that yard after dark, and it is a safety issue, but imprison three kids in a federal pen for being stupid, bored and throwing rocks at street lights? All three have clean police records, the worst any of them have ever done is get a traffic ticket for a illegal u-turn. Is this the way we want our laws to be used, to put us in jail just because it can be done?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[wabash1]

Ed then in this case you haft to use common sense. But if you do that then you haft to do it for the real criminals also. I can see it now, the judge ask a terroist how come you broke that light, well judge i shot the light out becouse i didnt need it anymore to see . i was done taking joint bars off the tracks so i could get the animal fat to derail and spill so it be slippery and i would sit and laugh at the guys as they fell on there butts . More realistic ed is the fact that once you have a law and people start the lesson it for one and not for all becomes this discrimination crap all over again. and the clu naacp and any other thing out there to twist things around than what it is ment for. Ed i am also sure that if your railroad is like ours the lights will be fixed next year as these lights was not in the budget to replace ( didnt think they get broke) so just be extraa safe working in and around this area. stay vigilant for terrosit. and by all means stay frosty.

[Mookie]

Ok - my 2 cents worth again!

I agree - if a terrorist is going to do something, he sure wouldn't be so obvious. If someone caused a train derailment, that would be a mess as most are. But to me true terrorism would be something bigger than a train - more like a water or air system - something that you are going to make a really big statement - like the twin towers and almost 3 airplanes. That is a big statement! They want to kill or otherwise affect as many people as possible.

In this day and age of Tom Clancy thinking (I love his books) terrorists are using their knowledge and available technology to wreak their havoc. This may include trains. But I think it is overkill to blanket the entire US with the fear that everyone standing next to you is a terrorist. And maybe that is the terrorists biggest weapon - fear.

Jen

[JoeKoh]

A train with chlorine or molten sulfur would be big enough.We as railfans need to be on the lookout as much as possible.I think Arizona would be better off too spend more money on patrols.People from Mexico are literally dying to get in to this country. Maybe the patrols can help save more innocent lives.
enjoy your day
Joe

[OldArmy94]

As I see it, all of these "ideas" like stiffening trespassing laws, throwing some vandals in federal prison, keeping railfans from photographing trains and the like, are simply POLITICALLY expedient maneuvers. They say "look at me, I am doing something to fight terrorism!" No, you aren't--instead of supporting the effective anti-terrorist work, which is hard, not always "PC", and will involve real political risks, our politicians are simply putting on a show. Unfortunately, their show limits our liberties and does NOTHING to stop those with evil intents. We must put our foot down and say no to ridiculous legislation and grandstanding and demand REAL protection from our enemies.

[JoeKoh]

Jason
If people are vandalizing the Railroad or stealing from containers along the border(ask any SP employee) they should be put in jail. Trainwatchers should be left alone.The key is take pictures leave footprints.You have people coming into this country stuffed in railcars containers cars trunks vans etc. I don't blame some who want a better life here in america.Most of our ancestors came here for that reason.thats why I was saying Arizonia can use more patrols at the borders to prevent loss of good hard working people trying to better themselves.As a railfan I am part of the anti-whatever some yahoo would do to a railroad.
have a great day
Joe

[OldArmy94]

Joe, don't get me wrong, I am in favor of arresting those who vandalize rail property. However, I was responding to the comments Ed made about the federal prosecution of 3 fired employees for breaking a few lamps. They were irresponsible and deserve to be fired, yes, but to prosecute them under a federal anti-terrorism statute is absolutely ridiculous. My main point is that our government would rather deal with terrorism by taking the easy way out and hamper everyday Americans in their daily living. The problem is that REAL police work is required in stopping future Bin Ladens. I am talking about spending our money and efforts on intelligence and other initiatives designed to thwart those who truly intend to hurt our nation.

[Anonymous]

It would be a class 6 felony, which in AZ is probation to 2 years and a maximum fine of $150,000 for the first offense.

I should point out here that the proposed law as written would only apply to yards that are fenced, and are posted with signs stating that trespassing is a felony. So if it passes, railfans would have to watch for the signs and make sure not to trespass in yards so posted, but I don't think it would apply to trespassing on RR property outside of yards. Also, I'm not endorsing trespassing, I just think this is a bad law and overbroad, being passed in the heat of the moment without a lot of thought to the unintended consequences, and it could lead to worse laws in the future.

[Anonymous]

Ed, thanks for writing the letter, hopefully the governor will pay attention to all calls and letters, even from outside the state.

You are right, the ru***o pass new laws and increase penalties will do nothing to stop a dedicated terrorist, because a terrorist is somebody who by definition is willing to violate the law to destroy lives and property. Instead these new laws will have unintended consequences and affect the rights of the rest of us. The example of kids being charged with terrorism for throwing rocks at lights is not the only example, nor even the worst.

Trying to stay frosty but it's hard in Arizona :)

[Anonymous]

Everyone who has responded to this thread, has made some very valid points. However, these are elected officials who are trying to pass this law. There had to be a valid reason for coming up with this bill. More then likely there constituents wrote letters to them demanding that something be done to protect them from terrorists.I can not believe state legislatures would make up rules like this just to keep busy. They are responding to demands made to them by the people.
I also believe that if a railfan disregards a NO TRESPASS sign and climbs a fence because he believes he is doing no harm. That person should be charged with stupidity and not trespassing.
TIM ARGUBRIGHT

[edblysard]

And its easy to pass a new law, but really hard to do away with an exsisting one...
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi Tim,
You know, I find it hard to belive anyone outside of the railfan comunity gives security at a railroad yard even a passing thought. Most citizens never think about trains, unless they are blocked at a crossing, waiting for the train to clear them. Rather, I feel this law mave have been sponsered by the railroads themselves, thru their PACs, and lobbyist, in a attempt to gather some of the homeland security monies out there.
I know down here, at the Port of Houston, they got a big chunk of federal dollars under the homeland security act, to buy fencing, new gates, hire more guards, improve roads and wharves and docks. Even the PTRA got a good size check. We are getting some more security cameras, some rather sophisticated electronics for our locomotives, and already have other devices I mentioned in another post, all from the federal goverments checkbook.
And what the point of the law? To deter someone who intends to break the law anyway?
I doubt the jerks flying towards the world trade center had second thoughts because hijacking airplanes, killing pilots, and crashing into buildings was a illegal act, and could get them jail time.
And yes, Tim elected officals do silly things, beyond common sense, all the time. When I worked for the state, at the end of every financial year, we would request our next years budget from the legislature, and during the last quarter our unit managers would spend every last cent we had, in order to justify next years bigger budget, because if we were responsible, and didnt spend all the money allocated last year, then what was left over was subtracted from our request for next year. So every year, I would get a new desk, or computer, or we would get new phones or radios. I loved it when we got new office chairs, the last one I had, before I quit, must have cost over six hundred dollars. That thing adjusted every way possible, it would almost turn into a bed, and it did every thing but type your reports for you. Now, not a thing was wrong with my old chair, or the 40 chairs in my office, but we got new ones every two years, so our office could run out of money, on purpose. So we could ask for more money next time. Make any sense? Of course not, but thats how it works. So dont place too much trust in the motivations of elected officals, they may just want a piece of the federal pie...
Stay Frosty,
Ed