When did the Chicago, South Shore, & South Bend end freight service?

[benburch]

I recently saw some pictures posted to usenet of South Shore freight motors, including some streamlined double-ended locomotives that surprised me. When did the South Shore end freight operations? And what was the disposition of the streamlined locomotives, which were numbered 801, 802, and 803?

[nanaimo73]

The line is still operating-
http://www.southshorefreight.com/
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=CSS
The Little Joe freight motors operated until the beginning of 1981 when 10 GP38-2 locomotives arrived.
One of the Little Joes is at the museum in Union Illinois.

[benburch]

Thanks for the speedy reply. I had thought the CSS&SB was just a commuter line now, but I see that in fact the commuter service is now a governmental entity.

[Soo2610]

Last I heard they are still running freight.

[CShaveRR]

Didn't the B&O Museum also get one of the Little Joes?

[daveklepper]

Yes. The South Shore is a full service freight railroad with commuter operations run by the State of Indiana over its tracks. The South Shore earns money on its freight operations and should have a good future.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The last time I looked, South Shore still handled freight, much of it being coal for two on-line NIPSCO power plants. The suburban service is operated by the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District, who also owns most of the mainline trackage, with SouthShore having operating rights for freight over it. The freight service was completely dieselized in about 1981 or 1982.

[ndbprr]

CSS&SB operates nine GP-38's numbered 2000-2008. At one time they were pooling them allowing them off railroad but that appears to have ended some time ago. They still use ex ASTF cabooses on some runs but the logic has escaped me. The commuter cars are Kawasakis and date back to about 1980. They are owned and operated by NICTD - Northen Indiana Commuter Transit District.. NICTD is currently exploring or has approval to put catenary on the old Monon mainline to Valporaiso Indiana which is a very hot bedroom location for Chicago. The few times I have talked with CSS&SB personnel they were very happy to be out of the business of hauliong passengers even though they maintain and operate the cars. Through the years several stations have been rebuilt or replaced. It is amazing what can be done when profit isn't a concern.

[gabe]

I am in South Bend right now, and had been on the South Shore as little as three weeks ago. I highly recomend the trip, as it one gets a fairly good view of freight operations by taking the trip.

Gabe

[MP173]

Gabe:

What are you doing in South Bend? Come on over and watch the drama unfold on Valpo hill....

ed

[gabe]

Ed,

I wish I could, and thank you for the invite. Unfortunately, I lost my father-in-law this week and am in South Bend trying to comfort my wife and her family.

As good as my family has been at understanding my love of trains, I don't think it would go over too well if I left to watch trains this weekend.

That having been said, it looks like I am going to have to take more time off on weekends to drive my wife to see her mother in South Bend in the future. Watching trains with you at the hill which you have described so well would be a welcome respite from the pupet strings that my mother n' law will likely attach to me.

I hope you will be up for it in two or three weeks,

Gabe

[MP173]

Oh, I am sorry. Having lost both parents and a wife, I can understand the situation. Without going into many details or questions, I would suggest you do everything you can to help your wife and MIL. The most important thing is simply to be there.

I am sure you will be asked to help the family do a lot of things in the future. It is a very tough time, no doubt the toughest time in my life.

A little down the road, you might want to suggest grief counselling for both your MIL and your wife. The holidays are rough, no doubt. The toughest time in my life was the six months or so after my wife died, looking back it was like I was in a trance.

Wi***here was something I could do for you and your family.

ed

[Anonymous]

The South Shore of today is comprised of 2 entities. Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District owns and operates the passenger service and infrastructure, and dispatches all trains. The Chicago SouthShore and South Bend Railroad, owned by Anacostia and Pacific, opeates the freight service in a trackage rights agreement with The District. There are passenger employees payed by the district, and freight employees payed by South Shore Freight, the nickname of the freight line. South Shore Freight also owns the ex NKP/NS line from Michigan City down to Kingsbury south of La Porte.

This evolved from the escapades of the Venango River Corporation that bought the South Shore from the C&O in 1984. Through quetionable management, and the unwise purchase of the old GM&O line from the IC, not including the property from Joliet to Chicago, things went bad for the company. In 1990 the Venago ownership was dissolved with the company being sold to A&P. A&P then agreed to do the split with the Commuter District as outlined above.
Things look good for both operations right now.

Mitch

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Venango River ownership was one of the sorrier periods in South Shore's history. The group was led by four lower-level managers from Santa Fe who probably got in over their heads. The purchase of the former Alton may have been an attempt to establish bridge-line operations which may have been based on similar operations on South Shore through the 1950's from Olive into Burnham to connect with BRC.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

The Venango River ownership was one of the sorrier periods in South Shore's history. The group was led by four lower-level managers from Santa Fe who probably got in over their heads. The purchase of the former Alton may have been an attempt to establish bridge-line operations which may have been based on similar operations on South Shore through the 1950's from Olive into Burnham to connect with BRC.

It was 5 men that comprised the Venango effort. Four from the Santa Fe and one from Sears. When they started out they weren't over their heads per se, but ego and mis-direction started the downfall. One by one the owners left the orginazation. The purchase of the Alton was an attempt to control the crossing of the Alton and Santa Fe near Corwith and compete with the Santa Fe for Kansas City-Chicago traffic, aside from the intermodal traffic that was sought.
I always felt that the purchase of the Alton line was so the CEO could run steam excursions without catenary getting in the way of the photos.
Being involved with that facet of the South Shore was one of the unhappiest chapters in my railroad career.
As a side note, I lost my first wife to MS during that period. It was like being disected with a dull butterknife.

Mitch

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

CSS&SB operates nine GP-38's numbered 2000-2008. At one time they were pooling them allowing them off railroad but that appears to have ended some time ago. They still use ex ASTF cabooses on some runs but the logic has escaped me. The commuter cars are Kawasakis and date back to about 1980. They are owned and operated by NICTD - Northen Indiana Commuter Transit District.. NICTD is currently exploring or has approval to put catenary on the old Monon mainline to Valporaiso Indiana which is a very hot bedroom location for Chicago. The few times I have talked with CSS&SB personnel they were very happy to be out of the business of hauliong passengers even though they maintain and operate the cars. Through the years several stations have been rebuilt or replaced. It is amazing what can be done when profit isn't a concern.

There have been plans for a long time to run South Shore trains to Lowell and Cedar Lake on the Monon. Track is still in place through Hammond in the off chance that one of the many studies bears fruit and the project goes ahead. Valparaiso is another story. There has been recent funding to study operating passenger service to that location over the CN (former Grand Trunk.) Trains would run from State Line on the old Monon to Maynard Junction then east on the CN.

Mitch

[daveklepper]

If you are now happily married, Mitch, you deserve a lot of credit.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

If you are now happily married, Mitch, you deserve a lot of credit.

Dave,
Thanks for your kind words. I met my present wife when I was a trainman on the South Shore and she was a passenger. She was the prettiest girl that rode the trains. She would board at East Chicago. I tried to get her attention but for 2 years she wouldn't speak to me. This is funny because she isn't speaking to me now as I'm in the studio so much lately.

I vowed not to date passengers and she had vowed not to date a trainman. One day after returning to a collector's run to take a break from the engineer's extra board, I picked the run that she would ride. I also had shaved off my moustache as an effort to re-group after being in the '93 Pennsy Overhead wreck.

That was the trick. I used to always say "Thank you" when I would collect a ticket and this one morning, as usual, I said "Thank-you" to the Lovely Renee' when she handed me her monthly pass. She replied, "You're welcome." And that was it. First a lunch, yahdah yahdah, and we were married a little over a year later. That was a bit over 10 years ago. I point to my children and say they are a direct result of The South Shore Line.

Sadly, Renee' also has MS, but her course is not as severe as my first wife's, and modern science has been quite helpfull.

Mitch

[MP173]

Mitch:

I dont see how they can possibly get enough $$$ to get the line out to Valpo. I am not sure what their plans are. I seriously doubt if the CN would let them on their line it is pretty busy right now.

The CFE line remains a good possiblity. Why not? You have the parking lot where the PRR depot used to be and surely one could construct an interchange with the SS. I will take a look tomorrow.

The obvious problem with that is there is very little business other than Valpo and perhaps Hobart, whereas the other route would tap into quite a bit more of Lake County.

With the new RDA, or whatever it is called, there will be lots of $$$ to consider spending.

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Mitch:

I dont see how they can possibly get enough $$$ to get the line out to Valpo. I am not sure what their plans are. I seriously doubt if the CN would let them on their line it is pretty busy right now.

The CFE line remains a good possiblity. Why not? You have the parking lot where the PRR depot used to be and surely one could construct an interchange with the SS. I will take a look tomorrow.

The obvious problem with that is there is very little business other than Valpo and perhaps Hobart, whereas the other route would tap into quite a bit more of Lake County.

With the new RDA, or whatever it is called, there will be lots of $$$ to consider spending.

ed

Ed,
They're doing the studies now. I agree about the CN main being too busy to handle a full fledged suburban service. the Pennsy main would be ideal as the interchange could be restored at Clark Road. Broadway would make a good stop for serving the south side of Gary and Merrillville, Hobart is worthy of service, there's plenty o' parking space at Wheeler, and the trains could go all the way to Wanatah with plenty of coach yard space. That was planned many years ago but of course fell through. The RDA has earmarked funds for this.

The real obstacle is terminal space in Chicago. There's talk of dedicated NICTD tracks being constructed on the east side of the IC right-of-way to speed SSL trains into the city, but then theres the problem of space in randolph Street as well. If they ran the Valpo service all the way to CUS, Whiting and The Harbor could be served as well.

Mitch

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

One of the ostensible reasons as to why Amtrak gave up the Valparaiso locals was that a major part of the ex-PRR main in the Calumet region had been abandoned, I believe that it was the part from Whiting to Indiana Harbor. The absence of that line doesn't affect CFE since they pick up the IHB east of Indiana Harbor but it still would cause problems for passenger routings.

Running service to Cedar Lake and Lowell on the Monon would require re-installation of track from downtown Hammond to State Line, plus installation of catenary, so I don't see anything happening in the foreseeable future unless NICTD buys P32's with pantographs instead of third-rail shoes.

[espeefoamer]

Two Little Joes have been preserved. 803 is at Union,IL. 802 used to by at the B&O museum,but was sold to another museum,I don,t know which one.
I saw 802 and 803 in service on the South Shore,and the 801 in storage.This engine was scrapped.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

One of the ostensible reasons as to why Amtrak gave up the Valparaiso locals was that a major part of the ex-PRR main in the Calumet region had been abandoned, I believe that it was the part from Whiting to Indiana Harbor. The absence of that line doesn't affect CFE since they pick up the IHB east of Indiana Harbor but it still would cause problems for passenger routings.

Running service to Cedar Lake and Lowell on the Monon would require re-installation of track from downtown Hammond to State Line, plus installation of catenary, so I don't see anything happening in the foreseeable future unless NICTD buys P32's with pantographs instead of third-rail shoes.

Paul,
I believe NICTD already owns the old Monon track from Hmmond to Maynard. I know the project is on a lot of radar screens. With the population around here growing as it is, it will be only a matter of time.
The creation of an enlarged Northwest Indiana regional transit authority , which is in the works, will pu***his along.
Your notion of P32s with pans has been discussed for some time as a matter of fact. Even the use of dual powered MUs. has been brought up.

Mitch

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Mitch;
I've been away from my old neighborhood for quite a few years. While using the old Monon line sounds like a good idea, what routing is proposed to get from Hammond to Chicago since using the old Monon right-of-way would require re-laying a lot of track, including new diamonds across the IHB and former B&O?

[ndbprr]

Clark Street Junction is a topic unto itself. CSX installed the turnouts to restore it then tore them out. They are laying there to be reinstalled at some point. Very confusing. I guess there was concern about possibloy someone causing a derailment there. Don't know why else you put them in then take them out.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Mitch;
I've been away from my old neighborhood for quite a few years. While using the old Monon line sounds like a good idea, what routing is proposed to get from Hammond to Chicago since using the old Monon right-of-way would require re-laying a lot of track, including new diamonds across the IHB and former B&O?

Paul,
That's one of the big bug-a-boos in the situation. You're right on concerning crossing NS and Conrail in downtown Hammond. The thinking is to make a junction and run up to a point around State Line to join the SSL main. I've not seen any firm plans on that .

For everyone else out there in Trains land the SSL folks always referred to the Joes as "Big 800s." Little Joe was a term more favored on the Milwaukee Road. Sometimes when the Milwaukee needed parts to repair their units, and were out of stock, they would do a trade with the South Shore if the latter happened to have the parts. That's why some of the old orange cars had "Hiawatha" upholstry on their seats.
As late as 1985 the South Shore mechanical department received a request from the Paulista Railway of Brazil, who had the balance of the GE locomotive order, for spare parts.

Mitch

[CShaveRR]

The routing I had heard about would have the new service beginning at Kensington and using the old Michigan Central alignment at least part of the way, and that it would be using new trackags south of the IHB main line by the time it got to Hammond. I seem to remember that it would mean that the MC bridge over the Calumet River would be restored to use.

I'm sure the IHB wouldn't appreciate a commuter schedule disrupting things around Gibson if the Valpo service were to use the CFE east of Tolleston.

I also suspect that any expansion of service will, at least initially, be diesel powered.

[dinwitty]

would this route thru hammond include the illegally scrapped monon bridge?

[MP173]

Hard to believe it has been nearly 10 years since we had this discussion.

No South Shore to Valpo yet and probably will not be.  However, the old depot area sees 4 coach busses daily to downtown Chicago.  Pretty good service from what I hear.

Ed