define un-american

[ironhorseman]

no, being a railfan is NOT un-amercian. i don't know what word to use instead, but first we must DEFINE what un-american is. to me, un-american means burning of the stars and stripes. i love railroads and i love my country and i would never ever burn our flag even if i had a loaded gun to my head. this country was built on railroads. if you say being a railfan is un-american then you'd HAVE to say being a christian is un-Godly. see my point?

signed,
ironhorseman

[cabforward]

the definition is: an initial comment made which uses the term(s) including, but not limited to: usa, the president, our flag, bill of rights, constitution, freedom, motherhood, apple pie, wwii, family values, pledge of allegiance, god [judeo-christian], the national anthem and any politician you voted for..

which comment is followed by someone saying, 'oh yeah? well, that's stupid!' the one who said 'stupid' is un-american..

[Anonymous]

I live in Dearborn Michigan which has the largest Arab population in the USA. We don't have a single hobby shop but we have more party stores and gas stations than anywhere in the world.
Who I think is un-american is law makers that made it legal for foreigners to come into this country and NOT pay income taxes for seven years. I see it all the time. E.G.: Ali has a party store or gas station for seven years, all the while sending U.S. dollars to family in Lebanon or wherever, and not pay any income tax. Just before seven years pass, his cousin Habib comes into the U.S to take ownership of the store and Ali goes back home. Habib pays no income tax and sends money back to his cousin Ali and the cycle continues.

[Anonymous]

Why don't they have to pay income tax for seven years??

[Anonymous]

I don't have the answer as to WHY...... but I have seen the same thing. Makes me sick. And, I have to ask, "where are MY tax dollars going"? I certainly don't see any benifit on my end......
I suppose that tax loophole was created decades ago to encourage immigrants to come here. Well, SOMEBODY has been asleep at the switch for a while, because that's exactly what we DON'T need anymore. Our jobs are being exported to cheaper labor markets daily. We are getting to the point where we can't even hold even. Soon there will be just two classes here, the rich crooked stock market abusers, and the newly arrived immigrants manning the conveniece stores, and gas stations where the prices will force the one time proud blue collar man onto a bicycle. Tax break for him? FORGET IT!!!!! The new age of slavery is upon us...

[cabforward]

o.k., you're right, it's very familiar, but right.. what next, a r.r. fan march on washington? we know our govt. agencies and elected politcians are corrupt, what else is new? the u.s. electorate is not known for dropping its remote to fight bad laws and corrupt lawmakers.. we allow these so-called representatives a statute which automatically gives them raises, unless they vote against it..

it's gigo, garbage in, garbage out.. we allow these thieves an opportunity to steal our money, hand out special favors to corporate friends, and we are surprised when they do it..
how long would a child stand next to a cookie jar before he sneaks his hand in? this is human nature.. if we are vigilant in the spending of our tax funds, we will see very little corruption.. if we drop our vigilance, we can expect the 'hand in the cookie jar'.. on top of which, we keep filling the jar with more cookies!!

[Anonymous]

You have to ask someone who knows the tax laws why and when. I remember reading something about it years ago but don't recall the details. However just about everyone I know has heard the same story. I just keep hearing it over and over. One story that was told to me recently, by someone who worked with an engineer from India at Ford Motor, saying the guy would brag about not having to pay income tax.
My theory is there was a time when cheap labor was hard to find and no one wanted low paying manual labor jobs. I think the intent was to attract foreign workers or help these people get established here in the USA. The I.R.S. didn't exist at the time when immigrants of the late 19th and early 20th centuries came here. So it was probably argued by law makers (most likely they or their parents immigrated to America)that it would be unfair to tax immigrants untill they became established as U.S. citizens. We know those early immigrants had no intention of returning to the old world. But now, many of the Arabs I know have duel citizenship. Even their children speak of the old world as "their country". They don't think of themselves as Americans. The people who used to live across the street from me a few years ago, flew the Lebanese flag. Their kids would beat up the Iraqi kids (1991 war refugees) next door to me! They hated each other. I feel like I'm living in the Middle East.

[Anonymous]

So true Dude!

[edblysard]

Hi Guys,
Yes, they do pay taxes. No, they dont pay federal income taxes if they are here on a work visa, (green card) but any US funds they send out of the country are taxed, and they have to pay a exchange fee if they convert it to their nations currency. And there is a limit to how much they can send. But they can be required to pay a state income tax, depending on which state they reside in. As for "owning" the store, if you research the tax records, you will find that the store is owned by a american company, usually a DBA, like Mom and Pop Enterprises doing business as Stop "N" Rob stores, or a group of people under a DBA, who own several stores. The hire these people for dirt wages as "managers", and work them 12 to 16 hours a day under the threat of having their green card pulled. If, by some chance, the store is owned by the immigrant, you can bet he is a US citizen. Federal law prohibits a non citizen from owning a establishment that sells liquor and tobacco. And keep in mind the store collects and pays sales taxes, permit and licenseing fees, beer and liquor licenses, tobacco license and sales permit fees, along with the DBA fee. Not to mention property and school taxes. With all that in mind, it may be that a cousin, uncle or some relative who is a citizen may actually own the place, and let their relative run it, and make the money, or it may be that a local bank owns the place under a DBA, and leases it to the immigrant, which is perfectly legal. So "all the money" dosnt go overseas, most of it stays right there, in your community. I can tell you this because I have run several auto parts business, and am currently using a DBA for a small business I have, as a sideline to my railroad job. Plus, my neighbor across the street is a immigrant, a muslim, and a new US citizen. He worked for one of these groups, made up of several american business partners and their bank, and was required to put in on the average of 12 hours per day, no days off, for several years, before finding a real job. He sent around $100.00 per month back home to his parents, and it took years before they saved enough to come here with his wife. They have no desire to return home, and support the American Constitution with more fevor and patriotism than I see in a lot of "native' born americans. That may be because they have lived where the rights we take for granted every day, like this forum, dont exsist, and people are shot for even mentioning them. And face it, unless your a american indian, or eskimo, your kin came over on a boat too, and your people are from somewhere else. My grandfather was a German Jewish immigrant, who had about ten words of english, yet here I am, two generations away from the "old" country, and I cant speak a word of German or Yiddish, due in part to my grandfathers insistance that we were Americans, not Germans, and his refusal to teach us the language.I am not now, nor will I ever refer to myself as a German American, nor do I like the terms African American, or Polish American, or Irish american or any -American. In my opinion, the hyphenating of your country of origin lessens the American part. We are all immigrants, at some point, but, as grandaddy put it, your an American first.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Very well said, Ed. --Ralph an Italian-Irish-Dutch-Engli***exas American and proud of it. (and by god- an Aggie, too)

[edblysard]

Gig em...

[Anonymous]

I'll tell you what is Un-American is those idiots in Washington who preach free trade as opposed to fair trade for example, last year South Korea sent 500,000 cars here while allowing only 2,800 American into there.
Now this stupid and expensive war they have got us into. We had Sadaam contained with the southern and northern no-fly zones, anything we didn't like there, we bombed the heck out of it.
Maybe we wouldn't be taxed so high if the government weren't sending out these big checks to foreign addresses.
But somebody had it right, if we the American don't give a hoot and completely vote to turn over the government every 10 to 12 years, then we have noone to blame but ourselves.
Pop

[Anonymous]

Being a railfan is not unAmerican except in the wee minds of the agents of the Federal Bureau of Ineptitude, most railroad cops and even a few regular police officers. Agents of the FBI (also known as "frequently bumbled investigations" would like a totalitarian state so they could control everyone. Railfanning is the extreme example of American freedom - hence the FBI can not understand it and therefore would like to eliminate it.
--Keep American free -- railfan!!!
Signed,
BN fan

[Anonymous]

Sadly, the drunk idiot whose father´s band is his master puppeter put your country on risk because of the need of some of their band to make money with dark bussiness -as all around the world can read about what happens with the weapon´s industry- but can´t (nor want to) use a bit of that money to improve a safe, energy-saver, and enviromental-friendly transport as the train is.
Also, remember that a train needs less oil for moving people, their luggage or freight than all the cars, buses or trucks needed to move then, something that the mad texan dictator hates.

[cabforward]

mr. geek-in-chief,
i resent your speaking out about political topics on ths forum and i really resent name-calling against our president.. this magnitude of insult is beyond what the meter can read.. we don't deserve to read this on a r.r. forum, and you should bite your tongue.. you don't like it? fine! there's an election next year, in case you haven't heard.. only 2 kinds of people cannot register: felons and the insane, but i wouldn't be surprised if you only fit into 1 of those categories.. there's only 1 bad guy at the party in iraq, and we're taking care of him real good..

i'm disgusted with posts in this forum that have no bearing on r.rs., but just rant about some un-related thing, such as the price of tea in china.. writers can say what they want, i jus wi***hey'd find the appropriate place for it.. this forum is about r.rs., got it? we do all things railroad here.. not the president, not unemployment, not who stole my piggy bank, just railroads.. if you have entered a class for which you are not registered, please contact the administration, but please don't distract those of us who prefer to stay on topic.. again, this is about railroads, not how this (or any other president) has ruined the country.. that group is down the hall, please!

[Anonymous]

I'm very baffled as to what the point of this thread is. Who exactly is saying that railfanning is Un-American?
If this is a complaint about stepped up railroad security, well, all I can say is live with it. The railroads have some very real security concerns right now, which are unlikely to go away anytime soon......
Perhaps a history lesson, railroad and otherwise is in order. During the Second World War many transportation assets, including railroad facilities, were classified as sensitive installations and guarded accordingly. Believe it or not, you could actually get in trouble for photographing them. But people understood the need to protect the country. I very much doubt that you would have found many railfans complaining about how their rights were being violated back then(but then there was no internet). The fact is we are in a wartime situation right now, and not just with Iraq, I think reasonable security precautions are something we must all be understanding of. Think of it as a patriotic sacrifice in support of the war effort...........................

[ironhorseman]

You don't know what the point of this thread is?!? Did you not see the cover of the April 2003 TRAINS Magazine? Did you not read the article? Did you not see the survey and the articles on the home page of this very website weeks ago???

There have been at least 15 topics added about the subject and so far 340 replies and there will be more by tomorrow morning.

If I must spell it out for you then so be it. I started this discussion because I wanted to see what people defined as "Un-American" and how that differed from TRAINS's opinion that being "Un-American" and being a "Railfan" are the same thing. They never actually said that in the article, but gauging by the forum responses that's how everyone interpreted it.

I put my opinion up and tried to be very clear in my example of what "Un-American" is (see the 1st post in this series because I don't need to retype it here).

Apparently people have taken this wrong way and started blaming immigrants and President Bush (see 4/1/03 6:46AM post). They forgot the forum policy: "No posting of advertisements, rude remarks, profanity, or personal attacks of others are permitted.
We reserve the right to edit and delete any posts."

TRAINS Magazine, not I, have lumped railfans and un-Americans as one. I think their article was an irresponsible one. It was nothing more than history lesson of WWII security plus one modern day real life example. It was not really educational or useful at all. Maybe if they want to be useful than can write an article on railroad safety and Operation Lifesaver.

It is apparent that everyone in these forums are upset at the idea that their hobby is un-American. The only thing the forums have accomplished is to gather a somewhat national consensus of opinion. (in other words almost all of us agree on the topic).

I don't really know if the FBI or other government agencies are really cracking down on railfans. Nobody has been able to prove this to me and the only place this is being talked about is in TRAINS Magazine. Certainly it has not been discussed in TIME or NEWSWEEK to my knowledge nor the USAToday or New York Times. If you can prove otherwise I'd be glad to see it.

If terrorists wanted to bring a halt to the railroads they don't need explosives. They just need to step in front of a moving train. This will bring that train and all traffic on that line to a halt while police investigate. The good thing is this will mean more dead terrorists. Besides, if a terrorists were going to derail a sensitive chemical train they will be more covert about it than their airline hijacker counterparts. When was the last time someone walked into the Union Pacific office and said "I want to learn how to drive a train but I don't want to learn how to stop it?" (e.g. the terrorists wanted to learn how to fly but not land a plane).

No, I will not think of this as a patriotic sacrifice to support a war effort. If it's in public view I have the right to photograph it. I challenge any lawyer to challenge that. You will loose if you and I have to go toe to toe in a court of law.

Otherwise, if you want to outlaw railfanning then you need to outlaw cameras, videotape, binoculars, telescopes, CB radios, scanners, etc. Sound absurd? Well, so does attaching Un-American to the railfan.

signed,
ironhorseman
("...Proud to be an American/ Where at least I know I'm FREE...")

[Anonymous]

Un-American - - (adj) a state of being where one finds contempt for the freedoms guaranteed by the US constitution. (see also- Bush, Rumsfeld, Hitler, Kruschev)

How's that?

[Anonymous]

Well, I say, let's close down the "bakery" and just say, "No more cookies!!!"
I'm tired of my tax dollars going to things that I don't deem worthy. The so called Air-line crisis comes to mind here. Oh, sure, we better give the airlines another few billion of taxpayers dollars so the executives of Northwest, United, etc. won't have to sell their vacation mansion in the Florida Keys.....
I'd REALLY say what I think of them, but this is a "PG-13" website, and I would certainly offend some folks with candid comments....

Todd C.

[ironhorseman]

OK, Rick, now define contempt.

And I did look to Bush and Rumsfeld and only saw pro-American in them.

God Bless Bush and Rumsfeld. Finally we have leaders that care for Americans as well as the rest of the world. Unlike Clinton, who made a mess of Mogadishu and Bosnia and Kosovo, and health care, and welfare, and left office with an economy headed for disaster

[Anonymous]

How's this for a definition of "Un-American" ---

Anyone who hates the will of the people, as defined in the constitution, and as expressed by the voter and upheld by the Supreme Court. ---

You Bush haters lost - GET OVER IT! I Have! Do the American thing - put aside partisan differences of opinion and support your country when at war - Our lives may depend on it! Any peace we may hope to enjoy in the future certainly does depend upon it.

Now can we please get back to the issue. Does any railfan fit this description? Certainly not just because he's a railfan. Someone please explain just how railfan activities can be a national security threat - it makes no sense to me.

If they can be used by a terrorist, then let's devise a means to prevent it. If not, then anyone just watching or taking pictures from a public place should be left alone. As yes I have seen several articles about the harrassment of train watchers in the local newspapers.

We do not need to march on Washington, all we need to do is provide a little education to those who have been unaware of the train watching hobby. It is just as valid a hobby as bird watching, or even girl watching (if your polite about it). Wordwide, train watching is generally even more popular than here, especially in England.

So let's get busy and educate those who are responsible for our security - and quit arguing amounst ourselves. TRAINS MAGAZINE and others could help emensely.

RmC

[Anonymous]

This article has brought a number of thoughts to mind. I will try to share them briefly. 1.)It was in reading Paul Theroux's "The Old Patagonian Express" that I was faced with the fact that I was often misusing the term "American" when I described my citizenship and heritage. Theroux points out that in South America, he met many people who called themselves "Americans" because of living on that continent and were offended by the misuse of the word by U. S. citizens. I have also found that a number of my Canadian friends have similar feelings. Was this article written for citizens of both continents, or just U. S. citizens? 2.) As a railfan, I have often taken some of my freedoms for granted. In the Fall of 1998 while doing some Per Diem work at Memorial Medical Center in Springfield, Illinois, I walked a few blocks east to the Union Pacific track to watch the southbound Amtrak train go by (about 6:45pm). I was wearing slacks, a sport coat and necktie with my hospital badge in plain view. Two policemen stopped to check on me. They were just doing their neighborhood rounds. We had a nice visit. I was not doing anything wrong. They were not suspicious of me. They respected my hobby. I appreciated their care for the community and for my safety. 3.) I have been guilty of acting in ignorance around railroads in other countries. As a 17-year-old, my father and I tried to take some pictures of the mouth of the Simplon Tunnel from the station platform in Iselle, Italy. Three men (station employees) ran out of the station toward us shouting, "No! No! No!" They escorted us back to our rental car. Since we could not understand each other, there were many gestures. They were very displeased with us. Our cameras and film were not taken from us. Although our dignity was tarnished. The events of the past few years may be showing us in North America what railfans in many parts of the world deal with on a regular basis. We have taken the safety and security of our transportation system and our hobby for granted.
Finally: How can I practice my hobby and be a good citizen? In addition to keeping up-to-date on any new rules and laws, I plan to write some local officials about the possibility of the construction of a railway viewing platform for my town. What better way to celebrate citizenship and my hobby than in a municipal railroad park?
Thank you for a very thought-provoking article.

Tom Busch

[Anonymous]

I too have done some railfanning in foreign lands while doing general sightseeing. Yes, they allow cameras just about anywhere, except in the most repressive countries.

I was serving in the U.S. Military at the time (Vietnam War). I carried and used my camera to take pictures of all sorts of things in several countries, including trains and trackage. Among those places I visited were Japan, Taiwan, HongKong, Philipines, Singapore, Autrailia, New Zealand, and others.

Now in hindsight, if train photography is such a sensitive security issue, the sight of a foreign military man in uniforn, taking pictures of their "sensitive" areas, should have raised a ruckus, especially in countries near the war.

Nowhere was I molested, bothered, or even questioned, though plenty of people saw me, even officials. I was welcomed just about anywhere I went. Only at the Manila Central Station did anyone even give it any concern. I was aware of being watched by uniformed security, but they did not even question me.

Indeed, in Sidney Austrailia, one could purchase train watchers guides in any railway station or uptown book store. They tell of all sorts of railroad information and trivia, and good places for photography. It seems its a national pastime there.

Now my point is that much of this halabaloo is silly. Yes we should be respectful of other country's sensitivities, and especially to our own. But let's not allow crass corporate nonsense to inflame national paranioa. Whatever security issues there are can be resolved, and Americans, including railfans, can continue about their normal activities, just as the President has counceled us to do.

We need to make our case to those responsible for our security. Most railfans would be patriotic enough to help, anyway - and would generally be knowledgable enough to recognize unusual or dangerous activies. In this way, railfanning becomes Pro-American.

RmC

[Anonymous]

Baahhhh! Wait till yo have some dowdi cop telling your american born hyde he needs to look through your trunk for "terror weapons" with absolutely NO probable cause to go on, except that he doesn't like your looks, annd have the whole mess make you miss an important meeting while he plays junior G man.

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure the body politic can be sliced and diced as neatly as you becon. the self righteousness is orthogonal to the repeal of citizens inaliennable rights... I don't see the admin deciding "ohh except for rail fans, they be good folk".......

(BTW, I was FOR Bush in the election, he has disgraced this country since then, it's not simply a matter of "He won, get over it"

[Anonymous]

Perhaps you mis-understand! I don't QUITE care what your politics are. If I wanted political debate, I would go to a political forum.

Fact is, I didn't support Bush's election at all. My guy didn't even run. You say you elected Bush. But have you forgotten what you elect any President to do - defend us from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The point is that, as a combat veteran who took an oath similar to the President's, I intensely resent the equating of any law abiding President (THIS war was legally declared by Congress) with Hitler, Kruschev, or any other ruthless despot.

And yes, somethings are just plain black and white. Nothing in the American civilian experience is as stark as war! You either live or you die; you win or you lose; you fight or you submit. There is either victory or destruction. There is no middle between the extremes of war.

Within civil politics there is a middle ground, a lot of room for all gradations of thought. But we are not at "Civil Politics" related to the issue before this forum, we are at WAR. I probably hate that more than anyone. But that is the way it is.

Now can we please just keep PARTISAN politics out of the issues of war and peace, and out of this forum?

Thankyou,
RmC

[Anonymous]

(sigh) The thread title was pregnant with politics

[Anonymous]

Yes, that's true - but national security, war and peace, must never become partisan. such issues are far more important than which party is in power. Generally in the past, the parties have more or less pulled together on these issues. But apparently not anymore!

Even though I did not support this President's election, I simply cannot stomach the partisan bigotry and hate that I see aimed against him. Whoever wins an election, it should be accepted by the "Loyal Opposition". The "People have spoken, twice already, and the courts have upheld the law. It's done - at least until next time.

There is lots of room for non-personal debate over politics, but we really shouldn't burden those not interested in it. We should debate in a political forum if we care to. I personnally would rather ratchet-jaw over railroading.

Have a happy, my friend!

RmC

[Anonymous]

Well, before you decided what my post MUST mean, then proceeded to make a big deal out of what YOU thought was appropriate fare for the forum, and what was not, The actual purpose of my post was more sympathetic to railfanning than evidently you realized.

Had you bothered to ask instead of assuming, I would have drawn parallels to how "clearly, american boys watching a chu-chu is no threat to the United States of America, and representing that it is, is simply absurd.

What clouds the issue is the uncertainty of the Government over the intentions of every man woman and child.

That's their (the govt's) paranoia, and they are unraveling some sacred protections that this country was founded on, to cope with it.

Bottom line: Railfans take heart, the greater wrong doing here is not of your doing.

Now, as to your attitude Rmc, ya know, you really ticked me off with your "bull in a china closet" type reply. I happen to be a rather skilled flame artist myself, and was tempted to unload in my own defense, but opted not to, because this forum surely is not deserving of that type of display, given the prorportion of the forum participation that appears to be father/son.

In other words, I turned the other cheek. But what made you feel entitled to come out slapping in the first place?

[Anonymous]

Well, perhaps some progress towards common ground! At least it is easier to understand people when sarcazm is avoided. I tend to take people at their word, presumably they mean just exactly what they say - or they wouldn't be saying it.

We agree on one thing at least, that there may be too much national paranoia right now. I joined this forum as invited by the magazine to offer my take on just that issue - that this paranoia is being taken advantage of by self serving corporations to settle a private "Score" with railfans.

I have repeatedly suggested that we as a group must enlighten those whose duty it is to provide for the common defense - perhaps reducing the their paranoia and redirecting their efforts in more effective ways. A patriotic thing to do?

As for what rights are being trappled, I am not sure what you are referring to. Neither the President, nor anyone else in the Federal Government has outlawed railfanning. They did however, foolishly accept a phony profile of a terrorist.

As to our rights of privacy, if that is what you refer to, congress did pass new laws intended to help discover the intentions of potential enemies, and they must of course walk a very fine line. And when we are no longer threatened by powerful madmen who have vowed our destruction, maybe that law should be repealed.

But I think we should be careful to avoid our own paranoia in reverse. The Constitution protects against "Unreasonable search and seizure". But reasonable men can disagree as to what level of privacy is reasonable. Indeed, what is a reasonable search now may be totally unreasonable in a more peaceful time.

As to my "Attitude", I too was incensed by what I read here. However, none of us complaining about politics in this forum meant to "slap" anyone, but only to pull the discussion away from partisan bickering and remind everyone that the principles and issues at hand are far more important than party politics. I think any of us has the right to suggest that.

I for one, am PROFOUNDLY weary of policical name calling, sarcasm, viscious negative campaigning, and the shear partisan bigotry that suggests another faction has no valid points to make - and is therefore unworthy of a public forum. That may not have been the intention, but that sure is how it sounded.

I really do believe that that the main Halmark of America (if it even can be defined) is a form of democracy where we universally and willingly subject ourselves to the "Rule Of Law" and peaceably share lawmaking power between various partisan factions.

Now I see increasing evidence over the last ten years that some are not so willing to accept the will of the people. It concerns me deeply. So I defined un-americanism in that light - and then said that railfans do not generally fit that description. I thought that was the point of the Trains Mag article.

I still do not believe we were invited to name call against the President or any member of this forum. If I were to take the time for political debate, I would be happy to debate you or anyone over principles and issues, sans the partisanship. I simply detest partisan bias. I am not alone. Indeed, our Founding Fathers tried hard with their complex set of checks and balances to break the back of what they called "Factionalism". We call it political parties. I call it YUK.

I still hope this forum will remain primarily social, as its subject has more to do with the socialable sharing of avocational and vocational interests than it has to do with politics. We are so much less likely to offend by avoiding politics and religion in social settings such as this forum.

Now Please! Have a Happy - we are not so far apart as it may have seemed.

RmC.