Haveing us railfans as allies with the railroad

[Anonymous]

I have more confidence in most of the police in my area that that. I HOPE it is not misplaced.

Anyway, according to one railroad *** who recently questioned my presence in a public park adjacent to the tracks, the city police are already refusing to respond to reports of railfans on public property, only responding when the railroad has taken someone into custody or have called for inter-departmental assistance. Accoring to him, It simply is not lawful to arrest someone just because they are just standing around, even near the tracks.

So you see, even the UP police are no longer harrassing me, though they do ask what I am doing. I have absolutely no problem with that. I gladly tell them - and yak railroading with them when they have time.

Incidently, railroading IS my vocation, AND my avocation, as it was for three generations back in my family. I started railroading with a grease bucket yoked to my back as I hiked down the track slopping grease on switch points. I am now a signal engineer - I love the technology of railroading. It's in the blood, so to speak. But I have never revealed that connection to any UP officer or local policeman. As I don't work directly for the railroad I am watching, it is irrelevant.

It is only the park police that are still giving me trouble. Imagine, not being able to just sit in a public park and do paperwork! I can hike, bike, play ball, feed the birds, picnic, snooze, or even watch the military supply ships from the same park bench. But be in the same spot and appear interested in the railroad - whamo. The park police run you out when they see you. Silly isn't it!

It is so terribly ironic the the railroad police accept my watching the railroad, but the park police don't. Fortunately, the park police are spread over the whole region, so I see then rarely. The railroad police and city police are there every time I go to the park, and they no longer bother me.

I still think this will all blow over soon, as the war hysteria fades - and hopefully all railfans will stay off the tracks and out of yards and such from now on. What won't fade so fast, I fear, is the loss of credibility of our employers. That loss of credibilty will remain dangerous to us all.

By the way, I rarely take photographs - I just watch and enjoy, while doing my engineering work in the great outdoors. I miss working in the out doors.

Have a Happy
RmC

[wabash1]

You keep saying false arrest. I can tell you this if you are arrested it wont be false. It will stick and you wont win. They will use the all time favorite in that you are obstructing an official investigation, and you wont win. that is one of those that has a broad brush and they use it to thier advantage. the best thing to do is just move along after they release you and come back another day.

[Anonymous]

I don.t think any railfan would blame you at all. I certainly hope not! Of course you must follow the boss's instructions. It is your over-zealous employers that are being blaimed.

I suppose we all would hope that they will come to their senses before something really unpleasant happens - like a false arrest charge or something.

Hopefully it all this silly paranoia will blow over soon anyway, and we can all get back to normal.

Have a Happy,

RmC

[wabash1]

it dont matter if i picked up any professinal trade jurnal (which i wont and dont they are bias) or any other mag or jurnal all that matters is what the boss wants me to do they pay me not the mag. its real simple or at least i have tried to exslain it that way. I do understand what you are saying but that doesnt matter when the man with the money tells me what to do i do it.

[Anonymous]

Maybe I just expect more out my goverment, or from the utilities and corporations I do business with. In fact, I will continue to demand excellence from myself and anyone I do business with. Whether I manage it, or get it from others is of course another matter, but irrelevant.

If you would have picked up any number of railroad professional trade journals, or observed any number of web news sites, you may have run across the reports - first about the Homeland Security Dept's request, and later what the A.A.R. profile actually said. Also, local newspapers printed the profile when they reported on some of the more notorious incidents that occurred. Why do you suppose that Trains Magazine even asked the question in the first place.

I would have no quarrel with any trainmen reporting any trespasser, no matter what they were doing. But the profile included people not on railroad property doing perfectly ordinary, moral, lawful and legal things.

Just who else has any authority on neighboring property when no crime is being committed - no one I know, except by due process of law. Railfanning IS NOT against the law! And no official regulation has been published to limit it

And how is it that anyone can believe taking pictures or watching anything from public property is a supicious activity. Ever heard of a "Sidewalk Superintendant" - it is actually encouraged by the design of the construction fence. Millions of people the world around watch and take pictures of anything and everything, even pictures of trains. - it is not suspicious or unusual. It is a normal healthy pastime.

Just because you personally don't like your picture taken does not make it a national security matter, or even the slightest threat to your employer. It might comfort you to know that unless you are literally hanging out the window, your features are undiscernable anyway.

Now most of the enginemen I know are very friendly and welcoming. Those who are my friends indicate they would rather leave the train watchers alone, as long as they stay off railroad property. So be it!

Except for the fact the the police and FBI are, for the most part not stupid, and are in fact catching on to this farce, and are trying to respect our civil rights, there would have been legal action by now, as others in this forum have alluded to.

Now please, put aside the question of our rights for a moment. --- How is any profile that does not describe a truely suspicious and unusual activity supposed to protect you or your employer from attack? !!! ANSWER - IT WON'T! That is the reason for my drumbeat on this issue. I am asking that you and your employer be better protected than that.

It is you trainmen that have been put at far greater risk than any railfan by this phony profile. I suspect that your security was sold out so your employers could take advantage of a temporary national paranioa for their own ends.

I truely hope it isn't so. But if it is - it must be rectified. For national security sake.

RmC

[wabash1]

It would seem to me that you are the one who dont get it. You keep talking about some aar profile that i have never seen or even heard about. just here by you. my instructions have been and always have been report all suspicious activities on and around the right of way. In other words if i am running a train and there is a house on fire that sits 5 feet from the right away, i am to report it, couse i will make it by this fire but the train behind me with 42 loads of tnt might have a problem. In other words you feel offended couse a company dont want you aroound . it is nothing new and we are to report you standing taking pictures. the reason you have not been bothered is most crews wont care unless you get in the way. i have only reported 8 people in my span of working for the railroad and only 2 of them was arrested, why couse they gave the cop a hard time and for stealing.

Now to put it a differant way if power companies ask you to cut back on power usage during summer to keep a load off the grid . would you? from your statements i would say no. and you would be the loudest voice couse you didnt get to run your air-conditioning all day long. But you was asked to help reduce and you didnt. you got what you deserved. same here all the law is asking is watch out and help. if you go out every other week or so aint nobody gonna say anything but push it and you might find out otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Apparently, my point must be hard to grasp.

In order to protect the railway, we need a profile that decribes a terrorist without producing a 99.9999% false alarm rate, wasting police and security resources. Frankly, multiple false alarms are worse than no alarm at all. Already, the wolf cryers are starting to be ignored - at least according to one policeman I know.

A wrong profile is worse than no profile. If an accurate profile is not possible, then simple common sense and vigilence is the only available protection. Knowlegdable employees and private observers of the railway are then the best defense. So why chase them away.

There are hundreds of reasons why someone might be near the tracks, photography is only one of them. Simple train watching is another. You might be waiting for something else, eating your lunch, or maybe you're even an artist painting a picture, or a business man going about his day.

There are very few reasons why anyone would sit in a car in a residential neighborhood. But millions do work and play near the tracks; and watch trains or photograph them, not just railfans. Railfanning IS NOT against the law! And no official regulation has been published to limit it.

Most of my train watching is done within the confines of a public park adjacent to the tracks. There may be hundreds of people in the park at any one time. Any one of them could be a terrorist fixing to do harm to the railway. Why is it that the park police have harrassed only train watchers, not others. When I pose as a hiker, I have no problem, even with binoculars and camera in hand.

I say again - If I can pose as a hiker, then any terrorist can pose as anybody, not just as railfans. With this phony profile, they will go undetected until they do something really unusual.

Who in the park but a railfan would even be able to tell what is unusual. They SHOULD be in the park, but the park police are too busy chasing railfans out. Besides, the A.A.R. profile won't identify a real terrorist to anyone.

Interestingly, when the U.P. police come by, they give me no hassle at all and have been very cordial. They seem to see the "Stupidity" of all this. At least that is what they tell me. Also they have expressed appreciation for my staying in the park and not tresspassing - as many hikers do.

Now are we going to chase everybody away from the tracks, or just those "weard-oh" railfans. I say again - There is no reason for all this paranioa and extremism. Train watching is a legitimate pastime, same as any other activity that takes place near the tracks.

Oh - something my Daddy used to tell me - that the halmark of a totalitarian country or despotic government is that they fear their own law-abiding citizens. Now I don't suppose that we live in such a country at all. So why act that way.

I believe the police and security forces of this country have been misled, foolishly, by the A.A.R. profile. If the Industry won't set it straight, then we should - for the good of the railroad - and America too!

Rmc

[therailnut]

They are protecting themselves from a potential attack. You might not be the one there to cause harm. but what is to say of the guy setting 5 miles down the track taking pics. Is he the one who is going to do it. That is what I am trying to say. The railroads are not going to take that chance because as sure as they let there guard down they will get bit.

It is no different then me setting out in front of your house. After awhile if you don't know why I am there you are going to call the police. For all you know I could be a criminal waiting to make my next hit. or how do you know that I am not waiting for your nieghbor to get home so I can visit them. and remember you see this for awhile as look out your window in your home. All the railroad see you for is for 30 seconds as they past. And they have to make a decesion if it is threat or not based on that. That is the reason you are being reported so the law can figure it out because the train crew can't stop and ask questions.

The railroads are going to do this no matter what even if you make your intentions clear or not.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

According to the February, 2003 Popular Photography New York City has forbidden photographing their bridges since September, 2002. Page 10 in that issue shows a sign on the Triborough Bridge forbidding photography, and claiming that ban is strictly enforced.

They also reported the California Highway Patrol has stopped people from photographing the Golden Gate Bridge. Anybody who wants a picture of the Golden Gate Bridge or any of New York City's major bridges can buy a postcard.

This means you can't even photograph any train crossing the Hell Gate Bridge!!

[RudyRockvilleMD]

I have been out railfanning many times since September 11, 2001, and nobody has challenged me for photographing trains either.

[Anonymous]

Protecting themselves from what! Is it my loaded camera. Maybe the'l pass a law saying you can't discharge a loaded camera within city limits - oh and it must be kept in the trunk if you are to transport it. They will probably include some provision in the law that says if you load it - any officer may presume you are about to use it.

Seriously though - First it was stay off railroad property (rightly so). Now it's don't even go near near the tracks, even on neighboring public property. What would you suppose is next. Abutting property owners must vacate because they might be a terrorist? - Maybe something even more extreme.

THIS IS ALL VERY NUTS!

Common everyday activites do not constitute a threat to anyone. No one needs to be protected from law abiding citizens. A terrorist could impersonate a legitimate freight customer, passenger, or any other ordinary person, not just railfans.

The key is to distingui***errorist activity from ordinary activity. The A.A.R's terrosist profile
DOES NOT do this - It merely describes an ordinary law abiding pastime activity that the railroads do not happen to like. THE A.A.R. PROFILE IS THEREFORE VERY WRONG.

Most importantly, it will not protect the railroad from anyone - Worse, it will tend to take the eyes and ears of loyal Americans away and open the door to all kinds of nefarious activity.

This security fraud needs to be exposed. If the railroads are un-willing to be "Real", then our government authorities need to be warned, as this false profile is itself dangerous.

RmC

[Anonymous]

I've sent an Email to the editors thanking them for this piece. How far would this kind of thinking go? If the Office Of Homeland Security begins to govern people taking pictures of trains on PUBLIC property, will they also put into practice guidelines for taking pictures of, say, the Golden Gate Bridge? The Sears Tower? The White House?

Politics affects our daily lives; this is just another example. I'd like to communicate with any fans who wi***o approach the industry as well as elected officials about this issue. I can be contacted at [e-mail]

Thanks,
Jeff

[therailnut]

Has anybody stopped to think that the railroads are protecting themselves in this. The railroad crews are required to report suspious activity and weather we like it or not. We are setting out beside trackside on or off railroad property. they are treating us like we are trespassing on there sites even if we are not on the railroad property.. and rightfully so.
They are protecting there right of way. What is to say if there is not terrorist posing as a railfan as the train goes off in the distance he does his dirty work and leaves. Next train comes by and derails. They are only protecting themselves. I can understand that, do i like it no I don't, it only takes a few people to cause concern and since we have been railfanning most of our lives we feel like we are get stepped on. Well until everyone gets on the same page and railfanners and the railroads come to term with this. It looks like the railfans will have to suffer. because the railroads are and will protect themselves.

Remember the train reports you. They don't have the time to stop and question what railfanners motives are. They see you there they will report you. And you will giving the answers to some other person weather it be the FBI CIA or Railroad police. All because there are few out there that will cause harm. We railfanners have to suffer these consquences.

[wabash1]

So the railfan community has spoken. The way i see chris statement is that the railfans should be allowed to keep watch on railroads couse they know more than anyone else, as stated by him. (even more than the guys who work there?) Then to add alittle boost to it he involved the president into the mix. I didnt see anything wrong with this.

So then mr, cabforward You started in on i am confused and misguided couse i see that he has the right to speak what is on his mind on a thread he started, if you didnt like it you dont need to reply or read. got it. Seems pretty simple to me and most others. But you have went on ranting in other post over this site about everything dealing with polotics and railroads. One man stated that he feels his freedoms are being taken away, and he may feel that way but not just with one thing just many things.( and probley cant narrow it down). I myself have lost several freedoms ( guns is one but i wont get into that) but i wont complain .

Then the endless ranting about the derailments and the referance to twilight zone, the movie about 2 guys stealing engines. Then wondering if we have refrigerator and microwave on board. If we have cd players tvs. What does this have to do with railroading, this is a job we dont have recliners, showers cook stoves or anyone to cook it. we move frieght. simple. got it.

In other words If it isnt what you want to read you sont want anyone to post it is the impression you give at least to me. I read these post and some i never go back to as i dont agree with the statements others i read as they are funny, others are informative. but there are several post here that have nothing to do with railroading and this is one of them. ( I can admit fault) but you have went above the call of duty in that you point out every post that does not deal with railroading by doing the same. got it.

[BRAKIE]

For what it is worth I been out railfanning 6 times this year.No Cops,no FBI,no CIA,no rr cops,not been reported by passing train crews.

Enough said.

[Anonymous]

Political Dog Dung? ! I have to agree!!

I don't want to know about anyone's hate of the President, or any other politician for that matter. The President and Congress both have access to much intelligence data about the world that I could never have. Since WE don't have all the facts, any judgement is prejudiced.

Anyway, I have no tolerance for the narrow minded bigotry that mixes the terrible issue of war and peace with partisan politics. If I am to be forced into such partisan discussion in this forum - I'm Outa Here.

Our political discussion in this forum should stick to the subject - railroads. Even media political debates require sticking to the subject at hand!

That said, it is too bad that the relationship between railroad and railfan has to be politicized at all. But since it IS now political, and since Train's Magazine saw fit to use inflamatory words such as "Un-American" rather than to stick to issue of whether ordinary railfan activities could be used to threaten us (which I do not believe), we are all in a big broil.

As I have said in other posts (Reprimand the A.A.R. etc), we should be willing to sacrifice for the common good, especially during wartime, but not in vain useless ways.

But will somebody please try to convince me just how watching trains, or even collecting pictures of them, or asking when one's favorite train is due, could possibly help a terrorist - especially when much more important railroad information is readily available just about anywhere - even off the A.A.R's own website?

That is why I have blaimed the A.A.R for the railfan's current political problems. They had to have known better all along; because they do not feel any threat is caused by giving away plenty of data themselves.

RmC

[Anonymous]

cab forward I have to laugh about your comments I couldn't have put it better lets stop the political dog dung.

[cabforward]

mr. j,
you are a misguided and confused person.. you might re-read my letter, which states, he does have the right to comment in this forum about anything, but why would he?

about political issues, again, re-read the letter.. he can argue all day about the influence of politics on r.rs... r.rs. are probably the most regulated enterprise on earth.. the part of his letter which concerned me was the part of his letter which had nothing to do with r.rs..

it had to do with our president performing as the president, and his policy towards n. korea.. so, if you can tie in the president's performance and the n. koreans with r.rs., you're some philospher..

as for voicing opiions, here's mine (do i have the right?): this is a forum about railroads; not the president's policies, not foreign policies, not any policies, unless 'railroad' comes into play, got it?

it's too bad this concept ws not absorbed from my earlier letter, because this one is a repeat of the first.. by now, it must seem repetitive
i could hit random letters on my keyboard all day long and post to this forum, but why would i? because it's my right? what's the message in that? who would understand the alphabet typed over and over?

my point is, why inject criticism of the president and support for n. korea on a forum about r.r.-ing? what's the message? there is no link to r.rs. that i can see.. someone could post a review of 'the wizard of oz' and probably start a big discussion here, so what?
who cares about reading a movie review in a r.r. forum? i say, who cares to read about criticism of the president or n. korea in a r.r. forum? if there is no link to r.r.-ing, it doesn't belong here.. why not post it in a forum where people want to read about the president and n korea? it's about relevance, don't you get it?

[wabash1]

Chris has every right to say what he wants. In his mind it is the political aspects of this country that keeps him from being able to do what he wants in his railfanning trips. so he voiced his concern about it. Just as you voiced your opinion about not wanting to talk about political concerns either. but if this is your case Then you need to go somewhere else because that is all I have seen is political statements on why you cant stand by the railroad tracks and take pictures.

[cabforward]

i could have expressed opinions on different subjects mentioned in your letter.. then you had to bring up politics.. now, i have to ask myself, what are you trying to prove by criticizing the president and his policy towards n. korea?

is this a freedom-of-speech country? certainly.. technically, you can say what you want.. but why say it here? this is about r.r. issues: std. & narrow gauge; freight & pass.; u.s. & everywhere else; current and historical; actual and fictional.. why spoil it by asserting your political rear-end? who cares who you voted for or wi***o disparage?

go find yourself a political forum and spill your guts 24/7 about this guy, that issue, and whatever conspiracy.. you want to talk here? fine, let's talk about r.rs.. just try to remember some guidelines: nothing dirty, nothing personal, nothing religious, and nothing political, got it?

[Anonymous]

I agree with Mr. Jake Jacobson of the Copper Basin Railway. I think we should be allies with the railroad. Be the eyes for the railroad, and the authority report anything that is out of place, because the authorities or the railroad can't see everything. So they need our help the people who knows more about the railroad than the rest of the country does besides why do we railfans of AMERICA want to destroy this beautiful country any way. I know that we are about go to WAR with Iraq just because Bush boy is paranode about everything even the North Korea come on they are just protecting themselves. If you want to know who this is I'm not afraid of giving my name and it is Chris Parks. That is my story and I'm sticking to it.