Railfan ID

[gamross]

OK, here's an idea. The railroads can use some extra eyes on the rails and we railfans can provide them. Maybe the AAR, in conjunction with the NRHS can issue simple ID's identifing us as rail enthusiasts. We could register with the AAR and they could provide a card we could carry in our wallets (or purse). The card could simply read that "Your Name" is registered with the AAR as a rail enthusiast. He/She will comply with all laws, rules, and regulations regarding safe railroad operations and we recognize his/her right to watch, photograph, or videotape from public viewpoints.

You get the idea. The railroads have an idea of who is out there and we have something to show authorities if we are questioned. I don't want any special privledges, just acknowledgement from the railroads that they know who we are and what we are doing. The railroads need to understand that no real railfan would let any harm come to the railroads, and that thousands of extra eyes out there sure couldn't hurt. On the other hand, we have to realize that times have changed and we may have to adjust our railfanning accordingly. No driving thru yards to get a shot, or walking the rails to get to a tunnel or bridge. Common sense needs to prevail.

Greg

[Anonymous]

My id is a hat with a railroad logo, a camera, a scanner, a head full of railroad knowledge, and a brain to tell the cops what I am doing and why. Please no cards, WE are not the criminals.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

During the mid to late 1940's the B&O issued identification card to railfans in return for signing a release. I don't remember if any background checks were made. Presumeable these cards gave railfans access to the B&O's property, especially their engine terninals. However, these cards were recalled shortly after the Korean Conflict started, and the exact reason why the B&O recalled these cards is not known.

[Anonymous]

I agree. And without a background check, an ID card means nothing anyway. Background checks are expensive if they're extensive, and only an extensive inquiry would place any credibility behind a railfan ID card.

Best to stay off private property, be prepared to tell the cop that Congress hasn't passed law prohibiting photography from public places, and go on about your business.

Paul Schmidt

[edblysard]

Do know if that would work, Greg.
You said your card would state that "He/She will comply with all laws, rules, and regulation reguarding safe railroad operations"
Trust me, the safety rule book is about two inches thick at most railroads, and it takes a two to three week course before we turn new hires loose with a mentor on property, and they havent learned a thing about operations except how not to get killed. The GCOR is also about 2" thick, and it would take a really dedicated fan to work through it to the point they could safely be around and understand operations. We get tested yearly on both. I am not trying to be consinding, but can you explain the rule about "restricted speed" in relation to track signals? Or the diffrence between a switch with a V sign on it as opposed to one with a S sign on it, and why you cant back up, or make a faceing point move over one, but not the other?
In my last job, doing background checks on people was a major part of my day, its extensive, and expensive. Who would take on the added expense of doing this? And who would assume the liability if and when a card carring fan got hurt? In todays lawsuit happy times, no railroad will want a non employee on property, and, although you did note that watching and photographing from public property is the way to go, some one will take the card as a license to get a little too close, and then you all have trouble. The last portion of your post presents the most sensable approach, and I am happy to say all the fans I know excersise their common sense and common courtsey every time I have met them.
But your idea does bring up this thought. What if the railfans approached the class 1 carriers, and asked them, the railroad, to set guidlines and form a offical policy in reguards to railfans, and what they, the railroads, would do to help? Most class 1s know all about you guys, (a lot of railroaders are closet railfans) and they know you are a extra set of eyes that can work in their behalf. Every railroad has a public relations officer, surf the net and find them, write a few letters and see what results you get....
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[C40dash8]

Some thoughts:

First, as a railfan, would you be willing to pay for the background check to obtain an ID? The railroads will not be willing to cover the costs for something that many feel won't directly benefit them. (Even if we feel differently).

Next, as a condition of obtaining such a card, the industry could establish some safety rules for railfans. Fans don't need to know what Restricted Speed means or signal indications (though many do). They do need to know things like to expect a train on any track, from any direction, any time. This, combined with a release, could help tremendously with the liability issue. And if a fan were found to be violating a rule, his/her card could be suspended or revoked. This provides incentive for the fan to behave and will hopefully prevent some of the bonehead stuff we have all heard about. Anybody who carries engineer certification is familiar with the concept.

This would provide consistent guidelines for fans to follow and would make their lives, as well as those of law enforcement, easier. While it is not illegal to photograph rail operations from public property, try explaining that to a police officer who may not fully understand that or our hobby.

[gamross]

Ed, thanks for your thoughts. I never intended however, as this ID to be a pass of any kind. I simply wanted it to state that we will observe in a safe, lawful manner. No trespassing, standing between the rails, etc. Something that states that the railroads know that we are out there pursuing our hobby and that we will keep an eye out for trouble. No, WE are not the criminals, but I'm not afraid to tell the R.R.'s that I may be out there taking a few pictures. Frankly, I'm disappointed the NRHS has not taken a stand on this matter, but that's another subject.

Greg

[Anonymous]

The B&O was always a class act. We can guess why the cards were recalled at the time. Don't want to imagine what Ashcroft's DOJ would do today.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

I agree with staying off railroad property; also as far as I know there are no laws against railroad photography unless an identifiable strategic military facility is in the background. But, if you tell a cop you are photographing trains as a hobby, and the cop still tells you to leave, even if you are on public property, I would leave. I wouldn't try to argue him or her; after all they have the badge they have the gun, and they have handcuffs.

[edblysard]

Hi Greg,
Heres another thought. In one of the posts, I read where a fan was invited up into the control tower by a offical. I am sure this happened because the fan introduced himself, explained what he was doing, and presented himself as a know quanity. Its the unknown quanity that arouses the interest of the local yokels. I understood you didnt intend the ID card to be used as a pass, but murphys law rules, and somewhere, some one would decide it was, and end up geting hurt, and then all heck would break lose. And, as you pointed out, the NRHS is sitting the fence on this, or so it seems.
So who would absorb the cost of processing, or administration of the ID cards?. I am not anti-fan, in fact, I was and am still a fan, lots of railroaders are. I can tell you what works here, in Houston. If you do decide to introduce yourself, ask what you can and cant do. We did a big move from the city docks this afternoon, helping UP set up a train, about 50 flatcars long, to move those huge windmills that generate electricity. They are on their way to California.
Millions of dollars in oversized equipment, one blade alone takes three ttx flat cars. Everybody and their uncle was crawling all over the docks. Port cops, PTRA cops, Houston PD, even a fed or two. There is a public observation platform at the turning basin end of the houston ship channel, and a fan was trying to get to it to take a few photos. The Port cops turned him away. Weird, because a: its a public place, and B; just about every local news team were down there, filming all of it.
So this guy is standing at the edge of the street, waiting to try to get a photo. I walked up to him, as we were waiting for all the officals and their friends to eat, drink and be merry down on the docks, and asked him why the cops turned him away. He said they told him the feds were worried about the platform being used as a site to take pictures that a terrorist could use later, to sabotage some of the other trains. We are going to handle about five of these special set ups. How stupid, its on the local tv news, as I write this! So I asked the guy what kind of camera he had. Real nice, older Nikon, looked like a used pro model. He bothered to ask, if I could, to get him a shot, but only if it wouldnt get me in trouble. So I "borrowed" his nikon, and as we ran around the train, I shot off a 36 roll for the guy, saved a few, took a couple from the cab looking back, down the consist, and handed him the camera as we came out of the docks. The tracks cross a public street, so we had to stop, and flag thru this crossing, I just walked over and gave it back. Seems no one minded us taking pictures, as every one of us who could get down there was present, with video and still cameras, and not a one was bothered. Did I break the law? No, they are public docks, owned by the citizens of Houston. Did I do something wrong? No again, if its ok for a news crew to take a picture, its ok for a citizen to do so also. Did I po my boss? Dont know, I will find out tomorrow, but I really dont care. Did I "help" the terrorist out? Not on your life, these thing have been in the local news for weeks, and all they have to do is watch TV to find out when and where these trains are going, and when they will arrive. Did I make a railfan happy, well, as happy as I could, under the circumstances. Besides, he is a local fan, and I am sure to get copys sometime soon. But, instead of accepting no, he was willing to take a chance and as one of us, the worst I could have said was no.
The point of all this is, we can be approached, and often dont mind you guys, as long as you understand there are somethings we cant let you do. But most of us, even the officers, dont mind in the least.
So again, I advise you to take a pro-active stance, go talk to you local roads supervisor, see what he can do to help. Who knows, he may want you guys to talk to him, so he can tell whos a fan and who isnt, and therefore who needs to be watched or moved along. The incidents in Trains are examples of people using bad judgement, on both sides of the issue. The KCS fan should have been tipped off, if he was listening in on his scanner. The crew had to know he wasnt a threat, the Feds and locals would have known that as soon as his plate was run. But both sides excersised a lack of common sense, the "cops" abused their power a bit, and everyone loses. KCS has lost a fan, who would have happly reported any problem he saw with one of their trains, the Feds look like jerks in a national magazine. Who won? No one. I didnt know we were fighting ourselves, I thought the terrorist were the enemy.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

The more I read about Tom Ridge and the so-called "homeland security" dept. The more I think that paranoia is bringing the United States into a quasi-communist state. I know that we have to be careful, but come on. What's next? FBI agents confiscating your prized collection of RR photos?
Shades of Senator McCarthy are starting to surface these days. I certainly hope the madness stops soon, I'm getting tired of all the "dog and pony shows". We KNOW where the enemy is, and we have the resources to take him out. But diplomacy is holding us back. Meanwhile, I see no reason to treat good, law abiding U.S. citizens as possible criminals. I have been a railfan since I was about 5 years old, and the biggest "terrorist activity" that I ever did was putting a penny on the rail to have a souvineer. I realize that things have changed BIG-TIME since 9-11, but please, gimme a break! "Big Brother" is really starting to ruin the American way of life.
Todd C.

[mudchicken]

A couple of attaboys for your thoughts Ed. I'm not in favor of letting people loose on the property with "license" given by a card. For all the talk about GCOR et. al., these folks need to understand that OSHA/FRA can fine you $10,000 a pop for being in the wrong place without the proper awareness and safety training under 49CFR214. This is why most people's insurance leaves them once they set one foot over the property line. As a former railroad employee and a surveyor who still performs accident surveys for the railroads, it is still amazes me how stupid some none-railroaders can be. (I would love to never do another accident survey, but there are way too many folks out there taking unacceptable risks.) Understand the railfans frustration, can empathize, but I see way too many dumb moves happening out there. Most of these "rules" are a function of having already learned the hard way and not wanting a repeat.
The unthinking actions of a stupid few are the cause of much of this.

[edblysard]

Yeah, thats the rub, most people dont understand why the rules are written the way they are. Yes, the old heads say its to fire you, but most also agree it also because some one been there, and goofed that. Dont mind fans, dont mind letting them look, even gave a ride or two, as long as they understand when I say sit here and dont move, I mean sit here, and DONT MOVE. Had one piddle around with the emergency brake on the firemans side, kept asking what it really did. We were light, going about ten mph, so my engineer looked at me, grinned, we got a good hand hold, and told him to pull it, and see. I bet he never does that again, scared the stuffing out of him. I get the frustration fans feel, but sometimes they seem to miss the fact that at least one of us gets killed every year, and if people who work around this stuff every day can get bit, well...They also seem to miss thats this is a business, and if I have a hustle up move I have to get done to get a train out on time, I cant take the time to keep a eye on them and my work.
Oh well..
Ed

[Anonymous]

Hello Ed and Todd every sence September 11 every one has been in terminol after the attack on the world trade center the law enforcement has lost it`s mind as if they hadn`t done it already. I am a railroader I hired out last year and am a closit railfan I enjoy seeing fans track side tapeing and takeing pictures when ever I work a road job I like to wave at them it makes there day when it happens. On one road trip I made a fan noticed a problem with a car and called the 800 number on the crossing post the dispatcher notified us the engineer stopped the train and I took a walk he found a sticking wheel we the crew got the ok to move the car to set it out which was about a mile away. When the fan got to my location I thanked him as it could have been a derailment costing the BNSF a lot of money insted a customer did not get a car. Rodney conductor BNSF

[Anonymous]

Achtung, achtung! You vil now haf your paypuhs pleeze! Paypuhs! It's fascinating to see people willingly give up their rights and adapt to the new tyranny. Railfans should have papers. What about grocery shoppers? Where will it end? The gulag?

[gamross]

I'm not sure what rights we are giving up telling the railroads who we are and what we are doing. Even before 9-11, many railroaders (and the public) thought we were a strange bunch. It doesn't take much these days to find out anything about anybody. It's not like I'm going to give them my credit card numbers or anything.
Unfortunately, times are changing. If we are proactive and offer our support to the railroads now, we may be able to cement a good relationship for the future.

[Anonymous]

Paul Schmidt said: Best to stay off private property, be prepared to tell the cop that Congress hasn't passed law prohibiting photography from public places, and go on about your business.

Hmmm. I wish you luck. Let us know if that works for you. I certainly hope it does, but have this nagging doubt.


Rob
3ri.com

[csxengineer98]

amen, this is still the U.S.A..... land of the free, at least thats what they say it is, but thier are people that want to have a ID card for eveything, someone leaked some information out about some nutcases talking about doing something to trains so they say, granted, we need to be more aware of what is going on around us, but i say, we all are going to die sometime, by some way, old age..car crash, or some other means, so why should we live in fear, and have to stop doing things we love if its not hurting anyone, and its not on RR proporty, i say, stand up to the cops, Big Brother is starting to get TO BIG!!!! how can we say we are the land of the free if you have to have "papers" to do anything.... remindes me of the days of the Natzies and the old USSR... YOUR PAPERS PLEZ... and the last time i looked at the constitution, the people in DC worked for us...

[Anonymous]

Bad idea, and here's why:

Given what some of the airlines are about to do (CAPPS II, Delta and Northwest are already on board with this), which includes running credit and bank account checks and background checks before you can fly, do you really think that an ID card for railfans would be a fair system?

Let's suppose somebody has a conviction from 15 or 20 years ago that is irrelevant today, they are denied an ID card, persist in railfanning anyway, and find themselves harassed and arrested every time they try to photograph a train?

Is somebody going to be denied an ID card because they have a criminal record? A bad credit rating? Members of dangerous subversive groups like the Sierra Club or the ACLU that the Bush/Ashcroft regime does not take a liking to? This goes for groups on the right, too; if you're in the Libertarian Party or once went to a militia meeting, will you be denied a railfan ID card? What about an ex-freighthopper who is in the railroads' computer because they got thrown off railroad property 15 years ago?

Now, on the other hand, let's suppose somebody with a perfect record slips through and gets an ID card, but they happen to be Al Quaeda sympathizers? Yet they can do all the photographing and casing that they want without attracting any attention, because they happen to have an ID card identifying them as a "railfan"?

See my point?

If such an ID card is ever started, I will refuse to carry one, I will not even bother trying toget one, and if this means I will be arrested for pursuing a hobby, I will take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. The government is out of control with their I.D.state and background check mania, it's a far worse threat than terrorism is.

Having said that, if I ever see a couple of Middle Eastern guys photographing trains I will report them to railroad security, just as a precaution. Anybody else will get a friendly wave from me as a fellow railfan as always. That is the best solution, just keep on doing what we're doing, and resist any threats to our freedom from *both* Middle Eastern terrorists *and* the Bush/Ashcroft regime.

[Anonymous]

> What about grocery shoppers?

Don't want to go off topic here or anything, but see http://www.nocards.org/

[Anonymous]

I discussed our hobby with a PA state policeman who attends the same church as I do. He stated the obvious that if you are photographing from public property, you have every right to do so. He went on to say that 90% of the PA state cops that he works with and knows would not make or ask you to leave.

[louisnash]

AMEN! You got it going on! If all true americans thought that way we wouldn't have fear. Thanks to our illustrious group of leaders they are the ones that are putting fear into our minds. They say live your life as normal as you did before. Yeah! Right!