Yard Operation Question

[Anonymous]

There are many things we now are required to do than ever before. Many of them, such as "3 point", are valid ways to cut down on injuries (and others are truly stupid). However, the rate of "FRA reportable" injuries has decreased at BNSF where I work, and most other roads. A lot of this has to do with how injury claims by employees are handled. Railroads are not under state workmans comp programs. They are under a law called FELA (Federal Employees Liability Act). It's a tort, or "fault based" system where you deal directly with the railroad claims department. If a claimant does not like the offer, he or she hires an attorney who files suit against the railroad company. The companies don't like this system because the claimants usually get much better settlements than if these claims were handled thru workmans comp programs. So the railroads have realized that much lower injury rates save them a lot of money. Therefore we have many more rules and procedures to follow, and the railroads (notebly NS) are often very aggressive in enforcing these rules. Violating some of the rules wherea person could be killed or maimed can result in (at least) an automatic 30 day suspenion, or even dismissal. It's a pain in the FRED to follow all these rules, but since so many of us are paid by the hour or day (and there are no longer "early quits"), we just follow them. It slows us down a lot. Maybe that's not so bad either, because most mistakes I've made handling equipments have been when I was in a hurry!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by am-conductor

On passenger, we ask for four step to go between/under the equipment. The fourth step is to 'knock down' or turn off the head end power (440 V) servicing the passenger equipment.

I'm familiar about the need to turn off the HEP since Metra suburban trains at Chicago Union Station change over from station power to HEP about five minutes before train time. I once heard two trainmen talking about the time a carman tried to unplug the 440 volt station line before turning off the power and the arc was blinding. Fortunately, nobody got killed but the carman got a lesson he'll long remember.

To am-conductor: Welcome to the forums, you'll find us variously amusing, interesting and occasionally knowledgable.

[Anonymous]

On passenger, we ask for four step to go between/under the equipment. The fourth step is to 'knock down' or turn off the head end power (440 V) servicing the passenger equipment.

[edblysard]

One example of why the FRA is so insistent on the 3 step or 3 point/Red Zone protection and the use of job IDs instead of using a persons name on the radio to give commands.

As Larry pointed out, I work with the same group of people every day, in a limited area.
We all use the same radio channel in the yard, to keep from interfering with the road crews.
There are three regular yard jobs per shift, three shifts in 24 hours, and on occasion, an extra job, all working on the same channel.

Now, let’s say my engineer’s name is Terry, (it really is) and another engineer on the top end of the yard is named Jerry, (there is).

I tell Terry I am going in between to lace up some hoses…and while I am in there, the top end crew needs to drag a track out.
So the foreman on the top end calls on the radio, “OK, Jerry, drag ‘em out”…and my engineer hears “Ok, Terry, drag ‘em out”…Terry knocks off the brakes and starts pulling, and I get the living crap scared out of me.
Happened to me once or twice…

With the Red Zone or 3 step, Terry can’t move the train, no matter what, until I release the zone protection.
If I ask for red zone protection on the radio, I have to release it on the radio, even if my engineer can see me clear of the zone.
If I use hand signals to ask, I have to use hand signals to release, he can’t move on a radio command if I used hand signals to enter the zone.

The whole concept is a system of checks and balances.

Now, with so many jobs working in a yard, and so many names being the same, or sounding so close as to be easily confused on the radio, with 3 step or red zone, the chance of the train moving while I am in between the cars is a lot less.
Add in having to use train ID instead of the employee’s names makes it even safer.

Ed

[tree68]

IMHO, such protection may well be necessary today not because train crews are getting dumber, but because they aren't "crews" anymore. Ed has the luxury of usually working with the same few people (plus he works in a relatively limited area), so all the crew members know and understand each other. No doubt many others fit that mold. "Back in the day," I've been led to believe that a crew usually worked together all the time. While it's undoubtedly still true, my perception of the RR world of today is that you may or may not be familiar with your crew, so a standardized set of procedures such as "three step," et al, make the interface just that much better and safer.

[ValleyX]

Gee, I still can't figure out how I managed to never run over anyone before three-step or how I wasn't run over when I was on the ground. But, I'm getting old and maybe I've forgotten.

[jchnhtfd]

I'm right with Paul. I doubt that paper trails are needed -- but I like the three step system, whatever it's called. Railroading is terribly unforgiving -- but has a remarkable safety record, and it's things like this that help it stay that way.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twsmike

When I hired out 36 years ago a simple stop sign was all it took, stop mean stop, I guess in all that time it has taken on defferent meaning.

I would think that mandating the extra steps described in three-step protection is a way of promoting safe operation by positive actions. Since lives and well-being are often at stake, a system that discourages short cuts would be a step in the right direction.

[mackb4]

Yeah I was always told when the cond.gave a putting air together sign (if you could see him)or "stop thata do"on the radio,you just didn't move.I think the FRA thinks railroader's are getting dumb or something.There's just to much radio chatter to include all these additional rules.edblysard your right on with thinking about a log book.I couldn't even imagine having to do that.

[Anonymous]

When I hired out 36 years ago a simple stop sign was all it took, stop mean stop, I guess in all that time it has taken on defferent meaning.

[edblysard]

When I first hired out, we didn’t have the three point or three steps.
We just told the engineer we were "going in between...he would reply with either a verbal "Ok" or a toot on the horn.
We had a hand signal, a motion that would look like you were lacing up air hoses, his response would be a hand out the window, thumb extended up, (hitchhikers thumb) which he would then turn or point down, (closing or opening an angle ****).

Then the FRA and the SOFA group had the Red Zone idea...any one in the red zone needed a formal or standardized form of protection...

So far, we haven’t had to keep a log or a cheat sheet on who is in the zone, we have three man crews, engineer, conductor, helper...so it’s pretty easy for the engineer to keep track of his crew.

You can call for a red zone to cross over another crews train, but the same rules apply, he can’t move until you call clear, so if you forget to clear the zone, you can stick a train for a few minutes.
Do that to an engineer a few times, and he will refuse to allow another crew to cross!

Ed

[mackb4]

CShaveRR your pretty right on with your answer.The NS adopted the 3-step about 2 1/2 years ago now.As engineer I center the reverser,knock down the gen.field switch,and apply a holding brake to secure the train.This is done so the cond. or breakeman or a car dept. emloyee,can work around the train.Now in order to check he brakes to be sure they will hold the cut,the cond.or brakeman will ask me to release the 3-step (revesring the mentioned 3-step).then he will ask for a c-102.To due this I will release all the brakes until it is known that pressure is being restored to the brake system,and that the hand brakes that were put on the car ,are holding them so as not to roll when we cut away from them.Then the cond. request a 3-step one more time and I let him know when the exhaust from the air brakes quit,and he will once again release the 3-step and cut us away from the cars.whew !! It was much simplier years ago before all of this .

[coldguy]

NARguy and edblysard have it, according to what you heard that someone called for a three point. (1)Automatic brakes applied, (2)reverser centered, (3)gen field off. In Army railroading, we teach 'going in' on the radio, but we rely on alot of hand signals. Our signal is like a diving gesture with the hands and arms. The engineer will respond 'set and centered', or hold the reverser out the window, or one long blast on the horn, signaling 'air brakes applied'. However, our operating and safety rulebook states that any signals may be used so long as their meanings are understood within the crew.

[Anonymous]

On CSX we didn't keep tabs paper-wise on who had 3 step. But, if an incident were to occur involving 3-step then of course a new bulletin would come out requring the engineer to keep a log. As for now I have never seen any type of log for registering 3-step.

[Anonymous]

Hey Ed, is there a paper trail up in the cab for this so the engineer can keep track of more than one simultaneous in-between? (like independent locks in LOTO)

[edblysard]

Three step, three point, Red Zone, (FRA favorite) and in-between...all mean crew member will in between the plane of the cars the locomotive is attached to.
NARguys has it, independent brake application, reverser centered, gen field switch off...(three points or steps to prevent movement of locomotive)

Prevents un expected movement, when crew members are lacing up air hoses, tying hand brakes, removing EOT, and any function that requires the crew member to be in the plane of the car body.
Is also used when crossing over standing equipment that has a locomotive attached.

No one can release the Red Zone or three point except the person who called it, and you can not piggy back on some one else’s zone call.
If I call for red zone, and then my helper also needs to go between the cars, he must call for his own, separate protection.
If I release my zone protection, the engineer can not move the train until he also hears my helper release his zone protection.

It is just as you though, a safety measure to prevent crew members from harm.
Ed

[waltersrails]

I agree [#ditto]

http://ztrainman.tripod.com/

[CShaveRR]

When we talk about three-point here, it's that you need three of your four extremities (hands and feet) in contact with the car or the ground at all times. Of course, that is constantly happening, so doesn't have to be mentioned on the radio. We don't stress the "three-step" precaution here--one used to hear "set and centered" a lot, but the transmissions have disappeared along with most of the yard engineers (remote operations, you know). I'm sure that the RCOs have similar precautions that they use in controlling their units (though they aren't allowed to touch the generator-field switch, IIRC), but they don't need to talk to themselves.

[tree68]

CSX calls it "three step" around here. Only the person who calls for it can cancel it. The conductor will call the engine "1234, give me three step", the engineer replies "1234, you have three step," and a similar exchange to remove it. Sometimes, if they are assembling a train, you'll hear the conductor tag on something like "and move ahead X cars when you're ready," usually meaning the when engineer has enough air to move the train.

[Anonymous]

full independent, center the reverser, and GF switch down. Then, the engine cannot possibly move due to acontrol function.

[tregurtha]

Thanks for the info. I thought it probably had to do with safety, but I just hand't heard the term three point protection previously.

Ross R.

[Mookie]

I think Houston Ed explained this to me a long time ago and I think Ironken is pretty right on with the explanation.

Mookie

[Anonymous]

My guess is that whay he was referring to was protection to go in-between equipment. BNSF uses "going in-between," UP uses, "Red Zone," I believe. To acknowlege on the BNSF the hogger responds, "set and centered." Meaning that the independant (at least) is set and the reverser is centered. Anytime you break the plane or are in a position that equipment that is coupled to engines or close to being coupled can strike you, this re affirms that no movement will be made without your command.

[tregurtha]

Greetings all,

My son and I are frequent visitors to the former Conrail Yard in Sterling Heights, Michigan, north of Detroit, which is now NS/CSX country. We have a scanner so we're able to pretty well keep track of the goings on. On Sunday I heard a reference I wasn't familiar with. A Conrail (NS) GP-15 was sorting box cars from a train that had just come in. At one point the conductor radioed the engineer for a "three point protection for the conductor." The conductor then proceeded to remove the EOT, then said "cancel the three point protection 1439." I'm assumng it had to do with safety since the conductor was on the track directly behind the cut of cars, but what specifically is a three point protection??

Thanks for any info.

Ross R.