QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt I'm not trying to point my finger and say this is all the federal government's fault. There's lots of blame to go around, and of course things could have been done better. One thing's for sure is that NO's mayor will have to answer to some tough questions as things stabilize. Btw- believe it or not, but it's actually possible for Fox News and the myriad dittoheads to get things wrong, just like MSNBC, CNN, and the local news station as it is for all of them to get it right. Consider the source, listen to both sides, and form a personal view. The truth lies somewhere inbetween.
QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton I agree this is a huge tragedy in our history. However when the media is showing pictures of people screaming for water and food 3 days after the hurricane passed and the director of FEMA goes I did not know they were usin that as a shelter. Bush was not even told how bad it was til 2 days afterword and then of course there is Barbara Bush's comment. FEMA anymore is a place to put your biggest cronie to run it. Brown had NO EXPERINCE IN HANDELING ANYTHING HIS LAST JOB WAS OVERSEEING HORSE SHOW JUDGES. Bu***hought I can still stay on vaction even though his own staff was asying we need to get back to DC. Yes NO could have prepared better and could have moved more people out beforehand but, 4 days to get food and water in to a major city that is flooded is a little slow. Florida was hit by SIX HURRICANES LAST YEAR AND THE AVARAGE RELIEF TIME WAS 1-2 DAYS FOR EVERYONE.
QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates Originally posted by Cris Helt Anything the government (state or federal) touches, turns to total FUBAR. [xx(] [xx(] Well, I just have noticed how, despite the confidence I have that serious mistakes were made by the local authorities, It's also becoming more obvious that the finger pointers are only giving one side of the story Exactly! "One thing about trains...it doesn't matter where they're going. What matters is deciding to get on." from "Polar Express" Reply JDV5th Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Grand Rapids, Michigan 124 posts Posted by JDV5th on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 1:07 PM Well, I just have noticed how, despite the confidence I have that serious mistakes were made by the local authorities, It's also becoming more obvious that the finger pointers are only giving one side of the story That is so true. The media is so quick to point the blame and only show one side of the story. I'm so sick of that!!! "One thing about trains...it doesn't matter where they're going. What matters is deciding to get on." from "Polar Express" Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 1:06 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626 I only hope that, when the dust from this megaflap and human tragedy settles down (in a couple of years), a book will be published by the investigating committee that's half as factual and insightful as the 9/11 Commission's report. If Hillary does it, or leads it, we know what will be decided and whom to blame. I THINK, we should all be appointed independent coucil and review the matter[:p][:p] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 1:01 PM I only hope that, when the dust from this megaflap and human tragedy settles down (in a couple of years), a book will be published by the investigating committee that's half as factual and insightful as the 9/11 Commission's report. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:45 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt Anything the government (state or federal) touches, turns to total FUBAR. [xx(] [xx(] Well, I just have noticed how, despite the confidence I have that serious mistakes were made by the local authorities, It's also becoming more obvious that the finger pointers are only giving one side of the story Like the now famous story of the 3,000 gallons of much needed water that got turned back by fema, after the news media sensationalized the need for water. 3,000 gallons of water is 12 tons. With the bridges in unknown condition and the knowledge that the levees that did fail because their footing washed away, I think turning the truck back made more sense than having another headline read "Federally directed rescue effort crashes through bridge, driver dead,..death toll now 10,001" Or, like the guy who said he would have crowded people into the Amtrak train till people were sitting in each others lap... Suppose the train wrecked, who's head do you suppose they would want for all the extra injuries due to overloading the safe capacity of the car? Reply Edit JDV5th Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Grand Rapids, Michigan 124 posts Posted by JDV5th on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:36 PM I know you can't make everyone evacuate, but it seems that people may have taken the storm too lightly or couldn't get out due to physical handicaps. If Amtrak made this offer to the local government ahead of time and the mayor and others didn't offer it to their constituants, that is foolish. It bothers me that the media places so much blame on the federal level (Bush) and not on the local government. Do you think people have underestimated hurricanes recently (and not evacuated) because most people have survived them? "One thing about trains...it doesn't matter where they're going. What matters is deciding to get on." from "Polar Express" Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:44 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by eolafan This is no big surprise to me and to many...the mayor, Governor and FEMA director were all incompetent, and so far only one has resigned....AHHHH, POLITICAL PATRONAGE IS A WONDERFUL THING...NOT. Agreed!!!!! Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt Too bad the Sean Hannitys and Rush Limbaughs haven't grasped the realization of this, but monday morning quarterbacking is their specialty. Actually if they hadn't brought to light some of the slanting created by CNN, MSNBC and others, we would all be thinking this was about race, and our big bad President. The alternate media is at least one source that will dig deeper then the fluff we get from main stream media. I for one am thankfull for dittoheads and the conservative media. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt Too bad the Sean Hannitys and Rush Limbaughs haven't grasped the realization of this, but monday morning quarterbacking is their specialty. Have you tried to ride amtrak lately? (lol) You gotta meet them WHERE THEY SAY, WHEN THEY SAY, or it's "no ride for you" Here I've gotta drive 40 miles out into the cornfields and be there at 11:30 PM, "or else"...No on site ticketing, no baggage checK... etc I'm only kidding a little when i say with a hurricane on their hands, the local authorities probably saw dealing with the storm as easier than putting up with Amtrak's personality Haven't tried riding Amtrak, as the only train(s) through Salt Lake City are at an ungodly time of the morning. Anything the government (state or federal) touches, turns to total FUBAR. [xx(] [xx(] Reply Edit eastside Member sinceMarch 2001 From: New York City 805 posts Posted by eastside on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:45 AM I might add a couple of things: 1. The area affected by Katrina was 90,000 sq. miles (not certain if this includes south Florida hit a few days earlier, remember?), approximately the size of Great Britain. Suppose by some amazing feat of legerdemain, the US Government had had 100,000 relief workers and soldiers standing by to rush in immediately after the storm. For obvious reasons, the government never does that. Even so, that’s only about 1 person/sq. mile. 2. One is either ignorant or naïve if one thinks that after a calamity that destroys civil order that the national government will immediately rescue you (personally) from distress. They’ve got bigger things to worry about, fixing levees, restoring order, putting out fires, treating and evacuating the injured, fixing communications, fighting off attackers, etc. 3. The people you can depend upon after a calamity (in order) are yourself, your family, your neighbors, local government, and finally the US. Basically, you should expect to be on your own and keep a box with supplies for several weeks. 4. The more resources a party can bring to bear, here the US government, the slower the party responds. What has happened in New Orleans has only confirmed what I’ve experienced and read. Like battles in war, natural disasters are highly contingent. That is the conditions are so varied that it’s really not possible to plan for every outcome. Therefore, far from having a disaster relief “czar,” I think the emphasis of disaster relief in the US should follow a distributed model, i.e. more resourcs should be regionally distributed. I think help arrives more expeditiously with local people in charge. Sure, with less central direction, there will be overlap and waste, but that’s a small price to pay to address the immediate and dire needs of those in distress. Reply adrianspeeder Member sinceMarch 2002 From: Harrisburg PA / Dover AFB DE 1,482 posts Posted by adrianspeeder on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:41 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by jockellis G'day, Y'all, In my ROTC classes at an essentially-military college, we were told that war zones were not the time or place to think, but to act on pre-practiced motions. They were talking about Vietnam but the instructions carry over to hurricane zones because in both situations, self preservation overrides thoughts of the mission. New Orleans and the other coastal cities should have had their own disaster plans which dovetailed with those of the whole region, the state and the Gulf Coast, east coast, Great Lakes, Pacific Northwest, West Coast, etc.. These should have begun at the local level rather than in Washington. Both the mayor and governor should bear the brunt of the blame, but FEMA should come in for its share, too. But with, what? 200 years of weather behind it? Louisanna should have known a big one would eventually get it and be ready to respond. Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Cool! Im AirROTC. Had a similar discussion. Adrianspeeder USAF TSgt C-17 Aircraft Maintenance Flying Crew Chief & Flightline Avionics Craftsman Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:25 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt Too bad the Sean Hannitys and Rush Limbaughs haven't grasped the realization of this, but monday morning quarterbacking is their specialty. Have you tried to ride amtrak lately? (lol) You gotta meet them WHERE THEY SAY, WHEN THEY SAY, or it's "no ride for you" Here I've gotta drive 40 miles out into the cornfields and be there at 11:30 PM, "or else"...No on site ticketing, no baggage checK... etc I'm only kidding a little when i say with a hurricane on their hands, the local authorities probably saw dealing with the storm as easier than putting up with Amtrak's personality Reply Edit jockellis Member sinceMay 2002 From: Just outside Atlanta 422 posts Posted by jockellis on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:16 AM G'day, Y'all, In my ROTC classes at an essentially-military college, we were told that war zones were not the time or place to think, but to act on pre-practiced motions. They were talking about Vietnam but the instructions carry over to hurricane zones because in both situations, self preservation overrides thoughts of the mission. New Orleans and the other coastal cities should have had their own disaster plans which dovetailed with those of the whole region, the state and the Gulf Coast, east coast, Great Lakes, Pacific Northwest, West Coast, etc.. These should have begun at the local level rather than in Washington. Both the mayor and governor should bear the brunt of the blame, but FEMA should come in for its share, too. But with, what? 200 years of weather behind it? Louisanna should have known a big one would eventually get it and be ready to respond. Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:51 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates monday morning quarterbacking comes easy.. There are so many variables, most of which you would have to have been there to appreciate, that it's almost impossible to say for sure what any of us would or would not have, done. That's not to say that the people who were in charge didn't make big mistakes, but to sit here after tha fact claiming how we would have handled it better, knowing no more than what is being reported by the media , is kinda unrealistic. Too bad the Sean Hannitys and Rush Limbaughs haven't grasped the realization of this, but monday morning quarterbacking is their specialty. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr Not to pile on or pass judgement but there is evidence that 9/1 was the day welfare checks were to be distributed and the people wouldn't leave because they wanted the money first. Hmm, that makes sense, I have seen Krogers and Walmart on the 1st and 2nd of each month and it's a zoo. I f what you say is correct, thing of what that says for their mentality. There is a quote in the bible, but better not say it. For it rings so true for that day. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:14 AM monday morning quarterbacking comes easy.. There are so many variables, most of which you would have to have been there to appreciate, that it's almost impossible to say for sure what any of us would or would not have, done. That's not to say that the people who were in charge didn't make big mistakes, but to sit here after tha fact claiming how we would have handled it better, knowing no more than what is being reported by the media , is kinda unrealistic. Reply Edit ndbprr Member sinceSeptember 2002 7,486 posts Posted by ndbprr on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:14 AM Not to pile on or pass judgement but there is evidence that 9/1 was the day welfare checks were to be distributed and the people wouldn't leave because they wanted the money first. Reply UPTRAIN Member sinceJune 2002 From: Independence, MO 1,570 posts Posted by UPTRAIN on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:54 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar I would have had those 20 cars FILLED and red tape be ***ed. Not only fillled...but sitting on laps too...pile people in there and get them out! Pump Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 6:35 AM I understood that the "empty" movement was used by Amtrak and other railroad employees. But many more could have boarded. Reply eolafan Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Aurora, IL 4,515 posts Posted by eolafan on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:25 AM This is no big surprise to me and to many...the mayor, Governor and FEMA director were all incompetent, and so far only one has resigned....AHHHH, POLITICAL PATRONAGE IS A WONDERFUL THING...NOT. Eolafan (a.k.a. Jim) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 2:27 AM I would have had those 20 cars FILLED and red tape be ***ed. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Cris Helt Anything the government (state or federal) touches, turns to total FUBAR. [xx(] [xx(]
QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626 I only hope that, when the dust from this megaflap and human tragedy settles down (in a couple of years), a book will be published by the investigating committee that's half as factual and insightful as the 9/11 Commission's report.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt Anything the government (state or federal) touches, turns to total FUBAR. [xx(] [xx(]
QUOTE: Originally posted by eolafan This is no big surprise to me and to many...the mayor, Governor and FEMA director were all incompetent, and so far only one has resigned....AHHHH, POLITICAL PATRONAGE IS A WONDERFUL THING...NOT.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt Too bad the Sean Hannitys and Rush Limbaughs haven't grasped the realization of this, but monday morning quarterbacking is their specialty.
QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt Too bad the Sean Hannitys and Rush Limbaughs haven't grasped the realization of this, but monday morning quarterbacking is their specialty. Have you tried to ride amtrak lately? (lol) You gotta meet them WHERE THEY SAY, WHEN THEY SAY, or it's "no ride for you" Here I've gotta drive 40 miles out into the cornfields and be there at 11:30 PM, "or else"...No on site ticketing, no baggage checK... etc I'm only kidding a little when i say with a hurricane on their hands, the local authorities probably saw dealing with the storm as easier than putting up with Amtrak's personality
QUOTE: Originally posted by jockellis G'day, Y'all, In my ROTC classes at an essentially-military college, we were told that war zones were not the time or place to think, but to act on pre-practiced motions. They were talking about Vietnam but the instructions carry over to hurricane zones because in both situations, self preservation overrides thoughts of the mission. New Orleans and the other coastal cities should have had their own disaster plans which dovetailed with those of the whole region, the state and the Gulf Coast, east coast, Great Lakes, Pacific Northwest, West Coast, etc.. These should have begun at the local level rather than in Washington. Both the mayor and governor should bear the brunt of the blame, but FEMA should come in for its share, too. But with, what? 200 years of weather behind it? Louisanna should have known a big one would eventually get it and be ready to respond. Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A
USAF TSgt C-17 Aircraft Maintenance Flying Crew Chief & Flightline Avionics Craftsman
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates monday morning quarterbacking comes easy.. There are so many variables, most of which you would have to have been there to appreciate, that it's almost impossible to say for sure what any of us would or would not have, done. That's not to say that the people who were in charge didn't make big mistakes, but to sit here after tha fact claiming how we would have handled it better, knowing no more than what is being reported by the media , is kinda unrealistic.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr Not to pile on or pass judgement but there is evidence that 9/1 was the day welfare checks were to be distributed and the people wouldn't leave because they wanted the money first.
QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar I would have had those 20 cars FILLED and red tape be ***ed.
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