Road Railers vs. Containers/trailers on flat car

[MP173]

Thru NW Indiana there are three TC's:

261 WB to Chicago (6-8AM)
262 EB from Chicago (8pm)
264 WB to Chicago (6-8Am)

I am not sure why they dont combine 261/264 unless there is tight deliveries to be made at Ford in Chicago.

Most of these TC trains are not that big. The 261 - 264 's usually are 20 to 50 trailers.

ed

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

Anyone got a picture of a Road Railer?

Try this: http://www.triplecrownsvc.com/Bimodal.html

[Modelcar]

...Check dwil89 post above for info on triple crown...
Futuremodal: Sorry, just saw the question on your post....But I really can't help on how long are the sidings in this area..{Muncie, In.}....I'd say some are not the 7500' length just by estimating by looking at them....

[Anonymous]

Anyone got a picture of a Road Railer?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Futuremodel: That I really don't know.....I simply have counted up to 140 trailers at times when I've watched the train headed south. 2 6-axle engines up front running the show....I don't know what their limit may be in length of consist.....

We can guestimate the length of 140 trailers, assume they're all 53's, that's about 7500'. How long are the NS sidings in your area?

Regarding possible push operations, I spoke with the VP of Sales at RailRunner, and he infered that RailRunner chassis can handle push-pull with DPU's (that was one of the things we proposed for the aborted BNSF Stampede Pass service). Of course, RailRunners use the dual tongue bogies which allow longitudinal forces to flow freely through the consist, that's why RailRunners can be set up facing forward or backwards. RoadRailers use the "elephant-style" tongue on trailer connection, with the lead trailer resting its tailgate on the bogie. There may be a problem with pushing behind such a setup, maybe a rearward force could concievably push a trailer forward off the bogie.

[dwil89]

Here is a link to the Triple Crown Company, which may provide some insight into its operations. www.triplecrownsvc.com Dave Williams @ [e-mail]

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....But then I assume from your conversation Dave, never pushing....up around the Curve.

That is correct....The Helpers on Roadrailers would be added to the head end, not the rear....most of the time, they'll run without need of a helper.....Dave Williams @ [e-mail]

[Modelcar]

....But then I assume from your conversation Dave, never pushing....up around the Curve.

[dwil89]

I believe that the limit is 150 trailers....There are around 4 regularly scheduled Roadrailer trains through the Altoona area.....242 and 262 are Eastbounds and 261 is one of the Westbounds...When they have an extra section, they will replace the '2' with an i... so an extra section would be symboled an I62 (eye-sixty-two) for example. I have seen anywhere from 1 to three road units on the head end of these trains. Sometimes, they will tack a set of SD40-2 helpers onto the head end to get the train over the Horseshoe Curve grade if needed. Dave Williams @ [e-mail]

[Modelcar]

Futuremodel: That I really don't know.....I simply have counted up to 140 trailers at times when I've watched the train headed south. 2 6-axle engines up front running the show....I don't know what their limit may be in length of consist.....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...The suggestion of using DPU with a RR train would make me wonder if that proceedure would be permitted....Having the "light" rail cars {tailers}, making up the consist....I simply don't know if that's done....and yes as I've mentioned above, the RR train through here does us 2 engines when it has a long consist of cars...{trailers}....

I also question whether the FRA would have to study the concept of distributed power at the end of the RR consist, with or without added loose car tonnage behind the DPU. I can't see any problem, but the people who study such dynamics might find a possible situation where problems might arise.

On those RR consists with the two units you've witnessed, can you discern if the train is maxed out in length, or if more could be added behind the RR's?

[Jordan6]

In the rule book it says something about all Roadrailer equipment must be located on the rear end of trains.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by goat

Yes but if the RRs are coupled at the end of a regular train and the slack should run in or out hard that would surely affect the RRs.

Yes, that could be a problem. There would certainly have to be some limits set in order to make sure you didn't buckle the RR trailers in the even of slack running in.

I think NS actually looked into doing it an decided not to. It would have been a good way to get back into the Atlanta - NE market again, since 265/266 were pulled just after the CR merger.

There are two other issues related to roadrailers.

One is equipment control. It is very hard to manage a fleet of dedicated equipment. If you are an over the road trucking outfit and you figrured that you could convert 20% of you business to roadrailers, you'd have a heck of a problem making sure you got the roadrailer trailer to the roadrailer customer. Similarly, you couldn't afford to standardize your trailer fleet on road railer equipment, paying the premium for a road railer trailer when 80% of the time you don't need one.

The other is commercial. Triple Crown is a "retail" door to door trucking outfit. Railroad intermodal is a "wholesale" product. The "big guys" like Hunt and Scheider have some leaverage with the RRs to keep competitve products out. I think that is part of the reason why Triple Crown hasn't grown as much as it might have. (and why it is a separate corporate entity withing NS rather than being part of the Intermodal Dept.)

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

Just remember the biggest con............trailers dont go on ships!!!!!!!! So when a company orders them, they already come with a 1/3 handicap.

Not true. When I was at Cam Rahn Bay Vietnam (69/70), there was almost always a RoRo (roll on/ roll off) ship in port unloading trailers.

[BNSFGP38]

Just remember the biggest con............trailers dont go on ships!!!!!!!! So when a company orders them, they already come with a 1/3 handicap.

[Modelcar]

.........I've never seen Triple Crown operated in the manner you propose.....

[Anonymous]

Yes but if the RRs are coupled at the end of a regular train and the slack should run in or out hard that would surely affect the RRs.

[Modelcar]

...I believe the type of connection {couplers}, between trailers is minimum slack on RR type trains.

[Anonymous]

Are RoadRailer cars durable enough to handle the potential slack action that could happen at the end of a freight train? Amtrak did it but passenger trains have less slack then freight trains.

[Modelcar]

...The suggestion of using DPU with a RR train would make me wonder if that proceedure would be permitted....Having the "light" rail cars {tailers}, making up the consist....I simply don't know if that's done....and yes as I've mentioned above, the RR train through here does us 2 engines when it has a long consist of cars...{trailers}....

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I pressed the wrong key - I am new at this.
AS I was saying, some more items to consider: (1) A high percentage of railway intermodal freight is international and already moves in containers for trans-oceanic journies, and (2) you can't double stack RoadRailers, so a RR train for the same freight is much longer than a DS container train. This is no minor item when using passing tracks or building intermodal facility loading tracks. The two are somehwat related since domestic containers can be stacked with international containers on DS cars.

[Anonymous]

Two more items to consider:
1. A lot of RR Intermodal freight is international, ie. it already moves in containers.

[Anonymous]

Using DPU's behind the RR consist would easily allow for loose car fill in. The problem is RR's don't usully need more than one unit, so if you put a second unit on the end as a DPU you better have enough tonnage in those added loose cars to justify the second power unit. And then you might run into train length limitations!

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jordan6

Having never worked with roadrailer cars I'm not quite sure how they work but, imagine if you had a roadrailer train and one of the trucks had a hot box or some other mechanical error. I guess you'd have to set the WHOLE train out instead of one car, right?

No, they can be set out like any other bad order car. The "legs" that support the front of any trailer when it's not hooked to a tractor are designed on RoadRailers to lower down on the tops of the rails.

If there is a bad order what the crew has to do is:

1) Lower the "dolly" legs on the trailer immediately behind the malfunction.
2) Uncouple that trailer from the bad order.
3) Set the B/O off, lowering its "dolly" legs on to the siding rails
4) Put the train back together
5) Raise the "dolly" legs on the trailer that was formerly behind the B/O
6) Proceed with their transportation mission

Basically, I've got some experience with RoadRailers. I was with ICG intermodal marketing when we set up the first commerical RoadRailer operation 25 years ago. I also worked directly for RoadRailer after that. (I was fired.)

The problem with RoadRailers is that they are not marketed as an adjunct to the intermodal sytstem, filling an important niche, This is contrary to the "RoadRailer Philosphy" which states that they are the Alpha and Omega of intermodal transportation. This philosphy was promulgated by Bob Reebie, the modern "father" of RoadRailer. His "deciples" (and that's an accurate word) continue with the philosophy and RoadRailer hangs on by its teeth.

Until the emphasis is shifted to using RoadRailers as an adjunct, riding on the rear of existing intermodal trains, serving smaller terminal locations, they are going to continue to languish. There are few, if any, origin - destination pairs in North America that can support RoadRailer only daily trains.

[Jordan6]

Having never worked with roadrailer cars I'm not quite sure how they work but, imagine if you had a roadrailer train and one of the trucks had a hot box or some other mechanical error. I guess you'd have to set the WHOLE train out instead of one car, right?

[Modelcar]

....On the down side: It appears {no expert, just relating what happened}, to require good careful train handling as it has pulled off the rails twice here as it negotiates a big long sweeping cruve on a slight up grade....

[Modelcar]

As stated above, Triple Crown is a dedicated type {unit train}, and is not short by any means anymore....See it pass through here {Muncie}, and not uncommon to count 140 trailers in make up of train being pulled by 2 6-axle engines. Imagine the main thought is making money and with the less tare and in general good value cargo it most likely does do just that....

[garr]

arbfbe,

NS has locos ranging from 2,000 to 5,000 hp to choose from, so the wasted horsepower on a roadrailer train shouldn't be an issue if the proper hp is used.

The old-way thinkers should accept Roadrailer trains the same as coal, grain, molten sulpher, autos, or any other unit train that is today's norm.

I am only surprised that this concept has not spread faster. Roadrailers have been around for nearly 20+ years in the current reincarnation, but have not thrived in a widespread manner. Maybe the old-way of thinking is the major blame.

Jay

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe

That was true in the early days, but not any more. RR trains can go 150 units these days, and many on NS these days are regularly >100 units. Some require two locomotives most days.

Sure, you can now add more roadrailers but there are not usually any of those laying around the yard looking for a train out of town. There are, however, generally more that a few car loads of general freight languishing in the yard which cannot be moved account there is not enough power to get them moving. Now here is this train of 1 - 150 roadrailers and there is no way to get the junk cars added to the head end (no air connection on the hoppers for the roadrailer suspension, incompatible brake system) nor to the rear end (no drawbar). So all those operating officers who have worked their way up the ladder see the roadrailer concept as too inflexible for the (their) railroad's needs. So they want to nip it in the bud before the concept spreads and the customers start to dictate how the trains are run.