crew fatigue

[edblysard]

Aggreed, and the lion has kenworth tattoed on his forehead....

[croteaudd]

Productive and profitable is what I see!! Really productive and profitable. But, management and labor working toward the SAME goals is possible, and the course of wisdom. The secret is seeing a situation for what it is. I like using a husband and wife analogy. They are enjoying a pleasant walk together, but suddenly come upon a vicious lion. What would you think if they then started beating each other up? Wouldn’t the course of wisdom be to mutually protect each other from the actual threat – the lion? Likewise, once management and labor comprehend that neither is the ultimate source of their problem, but the lion is (i.e., the cause and effect limitations inherent with ANY economic system), they then can act effectively. If they fail to recognize the situation, well, some animal may just have something doubly nice and tasty …

[edblysard]

Your right, it dosnt have to be thak way. But untill we can change that culture, the the " us verses the suits" attitude of the train crews and the "all trains crews are really lazy " view of managment we going to be stuck. Can you imagine just how productive and proffitable we could be if both side worked toward the same goal?

[croteaudd]

It is mind boggling that in America such inhumane treatment exists. It cannot be helped but to wonder why? Is it only a power struggle, or are involved parties really with no way out? I have maintained for nearly two decades that railroading has more opportunity than most industries to solve its problems. In that light, I really feel for you, Ed, because your suffering really doesn’t have to be.

[wabash1]

i used railroad terminoligy and it says it cant post the reply. and then tried comon sense and again the same thing. so ill try this. i work for a railroad with black engines, i get off under the reasonble off time clouse in the contract. and if i am sick they either let me off or take me to the company doctor. whos care i am under til back at work. as far as the playing field heard that before you dont get 80% fired or 80% union dues but 100% resposibility. the sign bonus is a joke.

[BRAKIE]

Well,J I see that part hasn't changed much.I know and understand the lack of rest that part has not changed from by Great Grandfathers day.

I come from a railroad family,like my father before me I went to the rails for a job.I knew what I was getting into.Both of my eyes was wide open and their was no grand illusions about week ends and Holidays off.I knew the hours would be long and very little rest.
Was we just tougher back in those days? I truely don't know.Yet we did our job and only marked off when sick and not because we wanted time off to go fishing and hunting.The frist job I got in a union factory after I was laid off from the great and nobel Penn Central,we could take the frist day of hunting season plus the frist day of deer season (both bow and gun)off..I thought to myself what non sense.After all we had the weekends off.Even the union job I have now I get 7 paid sick days,7 paid personal days and 6 weeks vaction.I make more money then a new hire even after he becomes a member of the union.Why not? I been with the company 14 years..My experence should be worth something.

Now,for you guys that no longer want to railroad for a living,just quit and just try,try mind you to find a job like I have.You will end up working long hours,week ends and still have to put up with BS.If you do not do your job right or miss to many days your fired.You see a good union shop or any union job is very hard to come by these days...BTW I hope you can live on $8.00-10.00 a hour job,that is the going rate for a non union warehouse job doing the same thing I am for union scale...

Of couse you can flip burgers for $6.50 hr.You will get your rest and still work most weekends and holidays and of course put up with the bosses BS.

I know and understand I am very lucky in having a union job like I have and there are many folks out there waiting in line to get a crack at it..

[edblysard]

Hey Jay, where do you railroad? I want to go there, where the grass is sooo green..
Mark off? oh, you mean cry and whine? Here mark off means the trainmaster demands you see the carriers doctor to determine if you are sick. Mark off for personal reasons? You have no personal reason that is above the carriers needs.
Unless you died, and then your widow will be bombarded by the trainmaster, safety person and a pack of lawyers to sign a release saying the railroad had nothing to do with your death. They usually beat the cops to your door, just in case.
The last time I called a relife, the trainmaster refused to let me leave, wanted me to take some pepto b and go back to work. I had to puke in his truck to convince him I couldnt work any more. The carrier still demanded a doctors release to allow me to go back to work. But I do agree with you about the UTU. It isnt a union, its a insurance company.
As for level playing field, I dont know what contract you work under, but I sure dont get air pay, travel pay, short hand pay, away from home terminal pay or productivity pay. For you guys who dont know, that means pre 85 guys get,
$5.00 a a day if one member of the crew isnt "protected" (pre 85), they get extra $ if they lace up one air hose, paid if they report to work or are assigned to a job that dosnt start at the home terminal, (even though all of our terminals are in the same city) and, as a really great perk, productivity pay. The carrier kicks into a pool money each trip a protected guy makes, here about $50.00 a trip. At the end of the year, the protected guys divide the pool amongest themselves, based on the number of trips each made. It works out to between $15,000.00 to $30,000.00 per protected guy. How level is that. Know what I get? $23.36 per hour. Period.
Although I have noticed when you point that out to protected men, the first thing out of their mouths is "your a crybaby" or "your just lazy". I did notice the last time around on contract the pre 85 guys did vote themselves a $1200.00 longevity bonus. Didnt vote anything for me. You did vote to allow, (at the carriers descretion) the new hires, after a probation period, to go
straight to 100% pay. So new guys get 100%, old heads get $1200.00 and us hired between 85 and now get 0. Yeah, real level feild there.
As to conductors telling you hoggers all you need to know is come ahead, or back up? Load of crap on your conductors part. I want, no, need an engineer you is part of my crew. I cant count the number of time my hogger has pointed out and warned me of cars rolling back that I couldnt see from the ground, but he could see from the cab. And on a new job I havent worked before, I rely on the engineer to cut me in. He has a brain too, and most likley has worked that assigment before, so he know whats up, what works, and what dosnt.
Yes, truckers will allways have a edge, remember railroads did away with LCL shipping in favor of unit trains and bulk hauls. Truckers can promise to have that load of pipe at your loading dock tomorrow evening. Railroads cant. Yes, truckers do run through their hours of service, often. Why, because it pays them to. If they get caught, it means their cdl is pulled, and they are fined, lots. I know, my father in law owns two Volvo-Whites and a Freight-liner and drives.
But the big diffrence is he takes a relife driver with him, so he sleeps while his co driver drives. Our industry has cut so deeply into the number of employees, because they are counting on technology to replace people, that the carriers have failed to understand that at some point the two have to equal out. Technology cant replace the common sense, or the decision making ability of a train crew. Just ask the Challenger crew, seven dead, a multi million dollar shuttle gone because the computer said a $100.00 o-ring was good to go. Europeans run 200 mph passanger trains hundreds of times a day, and yes, each train has some form of positive train control, and several computers on board, but there is still a hogger behind the throttle.
Because he can make decisions a computer cant, he can judge if some fool is about to drive out in front of him. Airlines have auto pilots on their planes, most planes fly by wire now days, but I bet you couldnt get twenty people to board a plane if you told them there was not going to be a pilot in the cockpit, that the plane was going to be flown by remote control by a guy in Omaha, down stairs in a basement looking at a tv screen and radar. Want to run a train that way?
Keep running off new hires, work the people left till they drop, and you will be doing just that real soon.
I have never heard of any other job, or worked in any job where I got paid extra because I was working with someone who was hired after a certain date.
And job insurance? Where else do you buy a insurance policy that pays you when you are fired? (yes, you will be fired at least once in your career) And where else is getting fired the normal process for anything from a rule infraction to a major screw-up. I have seen guys who had the bad luck to find a broken rail the hard way get 190 days off fired, but the same week a crew kicked a car into a clear track, thru the yard and right into the firemans side of the SP pulling a track, and they got two weeks. Go figure.

[wabash1]

larry the railroad is on a trial version of a life and work schedual now. the deal work 10 days get 2 days off. no layovers if there isnt a train there to bring back get in a cab and come home. if you want extra work you can have it on your days off. sound good. every 10 days get 2 days off. and no layovers. well here is reality, the railroad is ready to scrap it couse they are not getting their money worth, the crews are tired of working every 10 hrs on their rest due to no crews are ever rested, always somebody comming or going on their rest. as far as extra work they need extra people, in short they want it back the way it was both sides. oh and the frieght still moves they just make 1 train out of 2. saves crews for the trains still comming.

[BRAKIE]

Sure,but now the crews can be called sooner.If you have several crews off for their 12 hours of rest,who you gonna call? Don't forget the mark offs,the sick,lame and lazies and vacations-I suposse you still get a vacation?

[Jackflash]

who said anything about the freight sitting ?
it dosent sit now, just because one crew is
on rest that dosent mean another crew cant
move a train

[BRAKIE]

Guys,I have never heard such crying when I worked on the railroad.We all knew it was a rough job and not for everybody.All you guys need is another Fed law to help put another nail in the railroads coffin..What do you think truckers do?They drive 16,20 and yes 24 hours with out worrying about sleep...

Yes,get that Fed law,you will get lots of sleep while you look for another job...Truckers are disobeying their Federal rest laws to haul freight a railroad can't do that.So while that rail freight sits another 10 hours on top of the time it has already sit,the trucks roll on.THINK ABOUT IT! is your 2 hours of extra sleep worth your job? Truckers would love that rest law for you alot better then you think.

[wabash1]

pre 85 post 85 it dont matter the last 2 contracts from the ble and the utu made it a even playing field. I myself have boycotted the utu for years and will continue to do so. i dont work the ground i am behind the throttle and according to the conductors all i need to know is take them ahead bring em back and that will do. i have no problem with the current work/rest rules. and if i have had enough i mark off.

[edblysard]

Yup, yard rules are diffrent. Road crews ride, yard crews walk. We have "road" jobs here, but we pull and spot customers on 400 plus mile of track.Yes, if you work in the yard, flat switching like I do, 8 off time is the contract rule. No, we can not request 10 like class 1 conductors. And I guess RCL is something I should look forward to? Not only do I have to line sixty plus switches, pull pins and try to read a switch list I also get to "run" the locmotive too! So having something forced upon us is something I am already use to. Buy the way, you wouldnt happen to be a "protected guy, would you? Because if you are, your arbitraries equal the pay post staggers switchmen and conductors get. You make the equivalent of my days pay just walking on property. And I pity yard engineers, because after all these years of work to get up on the seatbox, they better get their old broke in workboots out because they will be running along beside a hopper holding up the cut lever just like the rest of us newbies. Although six years isnt quite as new as you make out. No scare tactic, just a fact. See your new contract, the one which gives protected guys first bids on RCL, "with extra pay and protection of course"? I was furloughed to "Uncle Pete" for a while, and switching 50 to 70 cars a shift was the norm. Back at the Port, thats just for starters. We average 200 to 250 per crew, with three crews in the yard. Thats 600 cars per shift, 1800 per day, flat switching. So no I am not a crybaby. I take pride in what we do. If I was single, I would have gone to a class 1 just for the money. Yes, I like going home every night. Yes, my wife works too. I chose to go railroading, because its what I allways wanted to do. And for pre 85 guys, it is somewhat like the books and magazines say. But post 85 hires are stuck with a contract which pretty much takes care of old heads but leaves us out.
Yes, I work at a terminal road because I get to go home every night. What I didnt bargin for is engineers so tired from doubling out on zero sleep that they miss the "that will do" and end up shoving a cut out the other end of the yard into the side of the BNFS crew doubling up.
Or switchmen helpers on the extra board who sit down and fall asleep when they stop moving for the same reason. But we are still here, and I will still be kicking em for years to come. I hope the carriers realize that whats inside most tank cars dosnt belong outside of the car, and when your crews are worked beyond the point of being able to keep the cars on the rail, then we, the entire industry, have a big problem.

[Jackflash]

Class 1 railroad has nothing to do with size
or miles or employees it has to do with money,
class 1 gross 261 million year
class 2 21 million to 261 million
class 3 less than 21 million

[Jackflash]

J the 10 hours at home terminal is a contract
agreement between the carrier and the union.
the FRA only requires 8 hours off, some carriers
dont offer 10 hours rest for any of their
employees, road or yard, the only way to keep
it even across the board, so that all operating
employees, short line, union and non-union
alike get enough rest is to mandate it by law
and it probably will one day happen, there are
just to many accidents nationwide that are
attributable to fatigue in the railroad industry
the bottom line is that none of the carriers
have enough employees, a lot of us have been
at this too many years to just "quit", if the
carriers had their way they would do away
with the hours of service law, remember brother
they dont care anything about you or me
jackflash

[wabash1]

ed yard rule and road rules are differant. in the yard all that you get is 8hrs. but if you are a road guy you get 10hrs at home and when you are at away from home terminal its 8hrs but you can request 10. you said a terminal railroad its not a class 1 railroad so the rules are differant. i get tired of hearing the new babies cry about i have no time at home i have a life i dont want to work all the time. then quit, let someone go to work that wants to. these scare tactics are going to force something at us you wont like even more. most conductors dont do nothing but sleep anyways. while the engineer is working all the way .

[Jackflash]

Once again Eds right on target! folks listen
this guy knows what hes talking about.
We need FRA mandated rest periods that make
sence, if its not mandated you will have a
patch work of different rules that probably
wont be enforceable, some short lines or non
union carrier wont have any relief, the bottom
line people is the carriers dont care anything
for their employees welfare all they care about
is the dollar. 10 or 12 hours mandated rest
after tie up. jackflash

[Anonymous]

Sounds more than fair to me, I'm all for it. I cannot imagine how train crews currently do what is demanded of them - my hat's off to all of them. Best wishes, and good luck!

[edblysard]

As a conductor/foreman for a local terminal railroad, I can attest to the toll lack of rest places on a crew. The popular misconception that we somehow have eight hours rest between calls is very misleading. What the FRA timeframe allows is for you to be back to work eight hours after your "tie up" time. In other words, if you go off duty at midnight, the carrier can require you to be back at work at 8:00 am. Your eight hours "rest" will include any drive time to and from work, any time spent eating, bathing or just relaxing. In reality, the amount of real sleep most crews are getting is a max of 5 to 6 hours, and thats if they live close to the terminal where they work. And as a added bonus, the carrier can work you 12 hours a shift.
Again, say you "hog out" at midnight, the carrier calls you back at 8:00 am, your work 12 hours and hog out again at 8:00 pm. You can be called back to work at 4:00 pm that afternoon for another 12 hours. All this on 5 hours of sleep? Any wonder that there are zombies running trains through your neighborhood, through grade crossing your wife and kids cross everyday? Sound scary? You should be in the cab when you realize your engineer has been asleep with their eyes wide open for the last ten miles or so.
How about 90 to 120 days without a day off? Could you work like that and still be productive? Safe? How about just awake? You bet we need new federal rest time rules. Its not just for our saftey, its for yours too!