Narrow Gauge/Standard Gauge Switchovers

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Russia uses a five-foot gauge primarily for the military reasons stated above and is one of the reasons that the Alco and EMD military locomotives of the 1950's were built with multi-gauge capabilities.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lfish


I have read - I think in Hilton's book - that a lot of the Canadian roads were built to 5 feet or more as a way of keeping those darned Americans from easily invading. The Army would at least have to change trains, spend a lot of time at the baggage claim, find new seats, etc.

Well, it would take a lot more than a few inches of railway gauge to stop the US Army's Military Railway Service.

In the southern states railways were also initially built with a five foot gauge. Didn't stop Sherman nor my great grandfather who was under his command. Way way under his command.

[daveklepper]

Correction: Both Pacific Electric and Los Angeles Railways used trolley poles.

This means that if only one wire were used, with three rail track in the street, the wire would be a compromise off center for both system's trolley poles.

Does anybody know if this ever caused problems?

Trolleybuses solve the problem by swivling shoes, but I have not heard of any streetcars or interurban cars using them.

[Anonymous]

I have read - I think in Hilton's book - that a lot of the Canadian roads were built to 5 feet or more as a way of keeping those darned Americans from easily invading. The Army would at least have to change trains, spend a lot of time at the baggage claim, find new seats, etc.

[M636C]

I've covered some of these points before (I guess the pun is inevitable) but we in Australia have tried most of the possible options relating to different gauges.

Three rail track is currently in use in Queensland and Western Australia where narrow 3'6" gauge and standard gauge share right of way. The main line to the East of Perth in WA is dual gauge double track for the whole route through the mountains to Avon Yard.
There are extensive dual gauge broad 5'3" and standard gauge tracks in Victoria and South Australia. In this case there is only a 6.5" difference in gauge and until 1995, the long distance passenger station in Adelaide, South Australia was fully dual gauge and passenger trains were switched by locomotives of whichever gauge was convenient. It was a rule that the switcher had to be coupled to one passenger car of the same gauge as itself to prevent coupling problems.

Earlier in South Australia, complete trains of narrow gauge gondolas loaded with coal were run onto standard gauge flat cars to bypass a mountainous stretch of line while the standard gauge line was only partly complete to the coal mine. This is surely the ultimate in "piggy back" carrying a complete train.

Exchange of trucks between standard and broad gauge was used extensively between the early 1960s and the early 1980s, This was time consuming and traffic now tends to be transferred in containers between cars on different gauges, although there isn't much traffic of this type between broad and standard gauge. This container transfer is the main method used in Queensland for traffic to and from the south.

In the early 1970s there were triple gauge 5'3"/standard/3'6" tracks in Peterborough and Gladstone in South Australia, with triple gauge turnouts. These may still exist, but the 3'6" gauge hasn't been used for many years.

The third rail on three rail track can switch from one side to the other by the use of special fixed switches with guard rails forcing the smaller gauge wheels across.

Peter.

[BR60103]

I've seen model castings for dual gauge couple pockets/end plates which had 3 pockets at 2 levels. Applied one way up for standard gauge, other way for narrow gauge, to allow one type to pull the other. Must have been interesting when the narrow gauge line switched sides.
In Ontario, a lot of lines were built to non standard gauges (often 5 foot or over) and they would be switched over in an "overnight" conversion.
In Britain, the Great Western switched from 7 foot gauge to standard, but over a long period, in which they added a third rail in the middle. They already had many stretches of mixed gauge.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

We really need to hear from the Australians about gauge conversions and interchange between different gauges.
The July 1965 issue of TRAINS has an excellent article about the conversion of the Monarch Branch from 3' to standard gauge in 1955. Due to abandonments, it had become isolated from the rest of the narrow gauge but generated enough limestone traffic to justify the changeover.
CN used to do a truck swap for cars destined for Newfoundland when they were unloaded from the carferry but this didn't always work and some cars had to be left behind at the ferry dock.

[daveklepper]

Again, Merchants Dispatch had some 40-foot refrigerator that were compatible with the CN system and did get to Newefoundland. I was told this by operating people when I rode the "Newfy Bullet" both ways, but have not seen pictures or the cars. I did see the area where the trucks were changed and the CN box cars.

I do understand that the regular Chama - Alamosa freight trains on the D&RGW regularly picked up standard gauge cars at Antonito for movement to Alamosa and either the caboose or an idler car were used as the transition, with most of the 2-8-2's on that of the line equipped with the dual couplers. The third rail extended all the way from the "end of third rail" sign about a mile west of Antonito wye up to Alimosa, including the wye in Alimosa that use to lead to the "Chili Line" down to Sante Fe NM, and the entire wye in Alamosa that use to lead to the line to Salida. There is lots of dual gauge in Switerland. Chur, Interlaken, Lucern. Some of the narrow gauge streetcar )"tram") lines have a third rail for freight. In Sauerbreuken (pardon spelling, etc,) Germany, the local meter gauge tram system has a third rail for standard gauge diesel light rail trains of the regional intercity system to enter the downtown area, and they go over into Czekoslovia! I don't remember seeing four rail dual gauge track in the USA but there is plenty of it in Switzerland, particularly around Lucern, where Swiss Federal has both standard and narrow gauge.

Does anybody want to recall Los Angeles with the standard gauge Pacific Electric (owned by SP) and the three-foot-gauge (with PCC's!) Los Angeles Railways (also owned at one time by SP) running on some streets under the same wire? LA Rys used trolley poles and PE pabntographs. If my memory is correct, the track was three rails, not two, and I guess PE has to suffer with the uneven pantograph pan wear.

In South Africa there is dual gauge: 3ft-6in for the national network and 2ft narrow gauge together in some spots.

A Tour de Carol in Southern France there is some triple gauge. The Spanish broad gauge, the French standard, and the "Metro of the Pyranees" meter gauge.

Finally there is the strange case of the Durango - Farmington line built by the D&RGW as an isolated standard gauge line and then converted to narrow gauge to be compatible with Silverton - Durnago - Alamosa.

[TH&B]

Usualy standard gauge cars are handled by the narrow gauge. In more recent history look at CN in Newfoundland were they put narrow trucks on standard ((40 foot box cars)) up until the 80's. In Switzerland and other countries "large" standard gauge cars are "piggy backed" on narrow gauge. I've never seen narrow gauge cars on standard gauge trucks or on special piggy back.

Obviously speeds are restricted but it all depends on the quality of track and clearances.

Q; Has anyone ever seen anything other then CN standard gauge cars on narrow gauge trucks in Newfoundland? I have only once ever seen a CPRail 40 foot box. Did any US cars ever make it out there?

[greyhounds]

This is a photo caption on page 267 of the previously mentioned "American Narrow Gauge Railroads" by George W. Hilton.

"The D&RGW handled 4'-8 1/2" cars on the three-rail track between Alamosa and Antonito by means of standard guage idler cars. Here one of the company's standard gauge boxcars is being moved north from Antonito in 1941 on a narrow gauge freight with idlers ahead and behind."

Narrow gauge mike #483 is doing the honors pulling the mixed gauge freight consist. We can only reasonably assume that the train went through the switches just fine.

The East Broad Top narrow gauge also employed standard gauge swtichers to move narrow gauge cars on three-rail track.

[mudchicken]

They changed out the trucks (i.e. Ramsey transfer) - East Broad Top Operated this way.......You need to find Professor George Hilton's excellent book on the subject. DRGW switch engines in the San Luis Valley (Alamosa/Antonito)used to have two sets of couplers, plus they had special flat cars set up for this purpose as well. Colorado was full of 3 rail dual gauge railroad until the 1940's (4 rail dual gage is insanely prohibitive in cost and design, Colorado & Southern had some between Climax and Leadville and it was a nightmare.)....Want to see dual gauge still in everyday service? Go to ANTONITO or Golden, Colorado.......[{(-_-)}][{(-_-)}][{(-_-)}]

Ifish - Most narrow gauges were standard gauged overnight by just lining one rail over on new/ longer ties set every second or third tie down the track. Dual gauge does not work on narrow gauge ties! (foundation stability would cause niticable x-level headaches)

[gabe]

Actually,

What I was referring to was narrow and standard gauge cars moving on the same train and in the same consist. I think I remember it now, I think it was a pitcher of Brazilian railroad train with both narrow and standard gauge cars on it.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

What you describe - standardizing narrow gauge by adding a rail and keeping all three - could be done, but was very rare. It was somewhat more common for narrow gauge to convert by adding the third rail and, when the whole operation was ready, taking up the narrow gauge inside rail.
And no, with a only very few exceptions in the U.S., you could not run one gauge cars on the other. But there were a few examples of shoving narrow gauge trucks under standard cars (they tended to tip over).
Even for people who aren't particularly interested in narrow gauge, I recommend American Narrow Gauge Railroads by George Hilton, 1990. It's the most complete and interesting book on any rail topic I've ever seen.
In the 1870s, there was a whole movement to build narrow, which was way less expensive to construct. That's how you got narrow gauge in Illinois. The curves could be sharper, the track went up hill and down instead of being heavily graded, and the bridges were made out of popsicle sticks. It was an attempt to get around the effective monopoly that standard roads had. But within a decade or so, the liabilities became plain - for starters, the operating costs weren't as cheap as the construction costs, and the thing collapsed. Most roads standardized or disappeared.
Check out the book. It's great. Includes the history of little railroads in each state I never would have guessed existed.

Larry

[daveklepper]

There is still a lot of dual gauge trackage being used in Switzerland. Sometimes this means a third rail, in other cases four rails to keep the locomotive or railcar pantographs centered under the wire. You can still see traces of dual gauge trackage in Antonito, Colorado.

Many series of Canadian National freight cars and USA Merchants Dispatch refrigorator cars went to Newfoundland for through car movements and moved on narrow gauge trucks on the narrow gauge there.

Small four wheel standard gauge freight cars are carried on Swiss narrow gauge railroads like truck trailers on piggyback, using eight wheel flat cars with standard gauge rails on them to support the standard gauge freight cars.

Occasionally, during the largest extent of the Colorado narrow gauge, when the South Park subsidiary of the Bulington entered Denver Union Station, it was possible to actually see switching moves in yards with standard and narrow gauge equipment in the same consist!

[gabe]

I have to admit, I don't know much about narrow gauge railraods, and they don't really interest me nearly as much as standard gauge railroads. I am, however, surprised by the number of lines around where I grew up in Southern Illinois and where I live now (Indiana) that used to be narrow gauge. The Nickel Platte's Southern Illinois Clover Leave line used to be narrow gauge.

Anyway, I seem to remember reading, or hearing, that sometimes narrow gauge lines would turn into Standard gauge/dual purpose lines simply by laying another rail in the standard gauge setting, while keeping both the original rails.

Am I hearing this right? It seems as though the switches would be difficult. Also, could or did a standard gauge train carry narrow gauge cars on dual purpose routes?

Maybe it was a dream, but I swear I remember reading this somewhere. It sounds so far out there. Did I develop a drug problem that I am unaware of, or is there something to this memory?

Thanks,

Gabe