sand and traction

[Anonymous]

Ive been told that sand on dry track will make the wheels slip more is this correct?

[Soo2610]

Saw a little switcher using sand on dry track to get a long string of cars moving at the CP Besenville, Il. yard and he sure wasn't slipping with the sand. Wheels made a pinging sound as the sand was mashed into the rails.

[Jackflash]

No it wont

[Anonymous]

Nope, newer units even automatically sand when they go into emergency.

[wabash1]

ironken i have a few questions for ya. 1) you say that the newer units go into emergency they sand automaticlly, how new? 2) is that in a train seperation or if the operator puts it into emergency? 3) can you manually sand the rails at higher speeds ( 25mph or more) with the newer units GE dash 8 or 9s or the EMD 70s?

[Anonymous]

Well Wabash, I don't know for sure if the older units (I may be wrong) not equipped with IFC (GE) and ICE/FIRE (EMD) sand automatically in emergency. The computer controlled units do sand automatically. The computer contolled units (newer dash 9s, Macs, SD70Ms) sand whenever the PCS valve opens except when DP/IDP linking operations are done, as far as I know. So if an in train seperation occurs or an operator emergency is initiated the leading axle sanders do come on. I am pretty sure of the info that I am giving you through my experience as a conductor and now hostler (that is all that I can hold, slow season, low seniority). If you want the good dope on this you need to ask an engineer who has been through the training program. In conductor and hostler training we were given the basics on loco operation. But, that is the best that I can offer you. Hope I helped.......Oh yeah, you can also sand manually at any speed via a manual sander button on the engineer's console. They will also sand automatically if wheel slip is sensed.

[wabash1]

thanks for the reply. as i told you in another post i am a engineer, my perpose was not to set you up( even if it looked that way). i was trying to get you to give more info on your statement on what the engines will do. for those who may want to ask but may not know how to phrase it. you are 99.9% right on what you are saying. what i should have ask what is the differance between lead axel sand and manual sanding and at what speeds will each work. but i didnt , and i do know that all the ns engines will sand in emergancy. also for your info all dash 8s and 9s wont manual sand above 12mph, and sd 70s some i have had wont sand above 18 some at 25. but the good ole sd40 sanded anytime and if you got busy you could forget them and empty the box. lead axel sanding can be done at anytime. now ask me a question about track work and ill give you the deer in the headlight look...

[Anonymous]

Thanks to all that replied.

[Anonymous]

AH!!!! Love that track work!!!!! Hard work, but very satisfying. Have done it manually, but not with a modern equipment gang. I even do it a museum as a volunteer! I would add some on the sanders, but I think that the subject has been vrey well covered!

[Anonymous]

Wabash, I stand corrected on the auto sanding. I also am wrong on the sanding when the linking operations are done. When I linked up a couple of Mac consists today I saw that they did sand when an IDP penalty emergency application was initiated. Boy I feel like a dumb ***......

[wabash1]

In your first post you also said as a conductor and if i wanted the real dope... or similar to that. anyways in your defense any time there is a emergency application operator or otherwise the units will sand. penalty applacations will not couse sanding. but even dispatcher think a penalty applacation is an emergency appl. its not. i may be wrong but it seems that you may not have many years under your belt on the railroads. dont worry it will come. there is not one true railroader out there that doesnt learn something everyday. i have learned from new hires as well as the guys getting ready to retire. keep a open mind. i will be asking 2 questions on here soon it might just be your time to shine. well thats my nickles worth.

[Anonymous]

Wabash, I wasn't talking about an alertor penalty. What I was talking about is when you condition the remote consist in a DP train the remote automatically goes into emergency unless you have allready put the automatic in continuos service and you have no BP pressure. I personally link while both consists are next to each other (I usually take both consists to the rear of the train, cut away the rear power and put it on the train, condition it, go to the lead consist, link, put into set-out mode, and run to the head end and tack on that power and finish BP test, Leak. test etc) When the lead consist is linking it gives me a Distributed Power penalty and goes into emergency and sands. Why it sands I do not know??? You sound like a pretty sharp feller. And yes I am pretty young on the RR. Got a lotta lessons to learn here. Sometimes I throw stuff out there that I am a little unsure of and look for the correction by somebody that knows. Worst case scenario, I get some intellectually stimulating chat, and possibly an answer. That's how I learn. Until next time....

[wabash1]

all engines are designed to sand when they go into emergency that sand will help the wheels from sliding . the engines can build up to 100lbs air pressure in a emergency applacation. regardless of the type j-relay valve they are using. that is why they want you to bail off the independant when ever you are in emergency. i have not worked with dp power. and i do relize they are differant from the old radio trains we ran on the southern. so here is a qestion for you . 1) can you bail the brakes on the dp power from the lead unit. 2) do you have dynamic braking cut in on the dp power for help in braking. 3) can you operate the braking on the dp power with out affecting the rest of the train? i know this might be out of the relm you learned so far. but i know conductors that have a few years under there belt that know more than some engineers.

[Anonymous]

Wabash, go easy on me here. I will take a looksie at the DP power screen next time I link. It gives all of the same pert. info as the fire/ice, IFC screens on single consist trains. I believe that the DP will actuate when you actuate on the lead (I will put one in emergency and try actuating and see if the brake cyl press. drops as rapidly on the DP as the lead) As far as dynamic on the DP there are the options "more traction" and "more brake" from the mode menu. Now as you know I am not qual to move cars. So the way I check to see if the rear consist loads is by using the option "move to rear" and select "more traction" this operates the rear consist independantly and allows me to see on the display if the rear consist loads by amps (dash 9) or by TE (mac) all the while the ind. is still set. So to answer your question with my limited knowledge, yes the DP is dynamic brake capable and can be independantly operated from the lead either in traction or brake (dynamic).

[wabash1]

cool .. hey just asking questions. see even a conductor can teach a engineer something. but when the question get over your head just say i dont know. nobody ever gets mad at a person that is honest. and i wont fault you.. the bnsf is going to bring us some coal trains that are dp trains and i am 1 up now on the others. now take the info i have on running radio trains. and add a few knuckels to that and i should qualify.lol in the future i will ask you other questions on the screens and how to set up. from what your telling me its not much differant running with a pusher on the rear other than i am controlling the engines. thanks again for the info

[Anonymous]

Wabash, now you have sparked my interest. Next time I run into the outbound crew (they are sometimes called before I even get the power on the rear end) I'll ask the Engr. just how much you can do with DP. I don't know if you can be in power on the head and dynamic on the rear or vise versa or how much throttle difference there can be between the lead and radio units......Don't know if you would want to use dynamic on the rear and power on the head. Might make your cond. hot when he has to pack iron 50 cars deep...hehehe. Now this is where the learning part from you comes in...Tell me more about these radio trains. In my short time I havn't heard much about them, wanna learn more....Hey, what have you heard about the BNSF/NS deal. Back on the Powder River late this summer our brass was showin your brass around. They were in business cars and went to Gillette, Edgemont, Guernsey, and Alliance. Kinda worried about a merge...I'm afraid that I might have to start poopin' in plastic bags...just kidding.

[Anonymous]

Oh yeah, I've got a question fer ya. I know that suppression is used to reset penalties. What exactly does it do to airflow? Had a DP train leaving the yard the other day and whoever tacked the power on left the last unit in suppression and did not cut the trainline in (scenario: DP coal train remote power nearest the train was a dash 9 last unit was I think a dash 8 NS unit MUed to the Dash 9 the dash 8 was left in suppression and trainline not cut in to it. Brakes were set up and the crew couldn't make any speed leaving, they may have stalled. I attached to their crew and found the closed angle cok and that the auto was in supp.) Just curious what supp. does......

[wabash1]

you are right you never want to be in dynamic on the rear and power on the head end. the only differance is that you may want to be in power on the rear while in dynamic on the front. this keeps them bunched up while you have crested a grade and the head end is decending. and as the rear is reaching the top you have been notching off. as far as radio trains go you ran them from the middle they ran great when they worked correctly.. but as you know the older equepment gets the less dependable it is. we no longer run radio trains and havent in 5 years. i would haft to pull out the instructions to learn how to do it again. now excuse my hillbilly wording but supression is used to reset penalty applacations. and if held in suppresion with out being cut out will draw the brake pipe down just like it was the lead unit, when i switch ends or m.u. a engine i just move the handle to handle off and cut it out. and go to the other end and set it for lead, brake test and go. and while the conductor is there, check to make sure the sanders are working, this was a post of sanding .lol it is informative i think.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Wabash for the info. Was in one of the NS's older units the other day (GE 8-40 I think, not too sure) had a really new pilot on the ground. Had a little confusion trying to explain that the long hood was the "front," to him. Very important when using lantern signals as you know. Why did the NS run thatta way?