School Project

[Anonymous]

I am doing a project for school on the current state of passenger railroading in the US and how it could be improved. What I need is information about service in your area.

Also, the project requires me to find an "expert" on the subject and contact him/her. If anyone here wants to try to fit that description, please do.

[wabash1]

good luck on finding a expert here

[Anonymous]

I live in Michigan, and we have several daily trains between Detroit and Chicago. In the past few years, these trains have gone to an"all-reserved" status. This seems stupid to me, considering that these trains rarely are half-way occupied. But for someone just wanting a "spur-of-the-moment" trip to Chicago, Amtrak treats you as if you were planning a cross-country sleeper-car trip. Hardly the way to win the "short-trip" customers.
Just my observations.....
Todd C.

[dknelson]

Frankly if you go to Amtrak's website you can obtain pretty complete schedules for the whole system, without having to rely on impressions or opinions. But if that is what you want ...

Here in Milwaukee we have what Amtrak calls Hiawatha Service between Milw and Chicago -- about a 1 1/2 hr ride. It functions almost like commuter service which Amtrak says it does not do. It is subsidized by both Wisconsin and Illinois. an additional train is being added this weekend. These are all 3 or 4 car trains with locomotives or F40PH "dummies" at the ends so there is no turning, it just reverses.
Milwaukee is also serviced by the Empire Builder, nos 7 and 8, cross country from Chicago to the West Coast. You cannot ride the Builder between the two cities (unless you know the conductor! :)
Dave Nelson
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Here in Los Angeles, We get the " Southwest Chief" from chicago, and the "coast starlight" from Seattle, that runs up and down the westcoast, as well as the "Pacific Surfliner" from San Diego, and the "Sunset Limited" through New Orleans and on into Florida, serving the LA "Union Station" which is a very impressive terminal.

Sounds like a passengertrain "mecca" doesn't it?

Almost NO ONE I know rides them, and i a bit, I'll share with you my experiances when I was contemplating a cross country journey via rail, that I think will show you why.

But first, I want to supplement the above by telling you that commuter rail is growing by leaps and bounds here, also serving the LA Union Station to a large, (but not all inclusive) degree. You may have heard the old song "Do you know the way to San Jose?"...where the Lyrics go "L.A. is a great big freeway.."??? Well, NOT! more like "L.A. is a great big parking lot.." it would be nice if our freeways worked, but they don't, we've reached the point where adding more freeways does nothing to ease conjestion on existing freeways, having persued the "principle of diminishing returns" to it's absurd conclusion. Driving home from work can easily become a three hour tour,.. a three hour tour...

Consequently, the California department of Transportation "Caltrans" has been pushing funds into developing stations, routes, remote parking lots, and support systems that let commuters park their smogmobiles out in the boonies wheree they can't kill anybody, and ride the train to work.

People seem to love it

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Back to Amtrak and MY experiance:

I was going From L.A. to Ft Wayne, Indiana, a town of 250,000 that has three abandoned train station sites: Wabash (torn down, but the concrete stairs, platforms, foundation, etc are still there and vacant), The Nickle Plate (still there right in the center of town on the raised elevation, but boarded up), and the old Pennsey/Amtrak station, fully restored, gleaming,.. and not a darned train serving it.

Why are all stations closed? Well,"Amtrak" is the best answer. Instead, the "nearest" Amtrak station is 30+ miles away, out in the middle of nowhere in a town of about 6,000 called "Waterloo".

Waterloo is a nice place, peacefull, but it's one of those towns where they roll up the sidewalk and put it away at night if you get my drift.

I had planned to train in there "blind" making a connection from the southwest chief in chicago to the Lake Shore Limited, that would have put me in Waterloo at 11:00 PM.

"Not a Huge problem" I thought, since Waterloo is only a few miles from an Interstate that runs right into Ft Wayne..

In Pricing the trip (when you travel by rail, it's slow, but you are told that *that* is half the fun, the "atmosphere", the "adventure", the "scenery", AND of course, the meals are all included in the fair) So I expected to pay a premium, and willing to do things "right" modest sleeping accomodations seemed in order.

The price from an Amtrak Pamplet for the sleeper seem ~reasonable~ in a slightly overpriced "trains may not be around forever" kinda way, and *that* is why I was thinking "train" for the trip anyway.

The fare, with sleeper between LA/Chicago and coach between Chicago/Waterloo, currently priced at about $800.00, but earlier this year around $650.00.

Certainly seemed "top dollar", but "the adventure" etc

As I went to book my trip from their web site later, I discover the "Whammy" that the price was JUST THE PREMIUM for the sleeper accomodations, AND MUST NECESSARILY BE ADDED on top of THE BASE FARE of currently $380.00 for a total trip price of $1,176.00

I'm sorry, but compared to a price to get there the same day, on a Plane of around $400.00,...that $800.00 premium better buy one heck of an adventure show.

I have a "reasonableness" scale for lodging, arbitrary as it may be, that the price Holiday Inn would charge me for a decent, fresh clean room, roughly $80.00-$95.00 a night, is about as High as I wanna go unless the word "Resort" is tacked onto the end of it. Amtrak by it's own admission, states the sleeping quarters are not spacious. And I can't immagine what they think I'm buying for that kinda money, but "not spacious" is not one of them. Evidently, they think I wanna buy into the ammortization schedule of the car purchase cost, but *it* simply taint so. Not without a stock certificate anyway, If I'm "buying in", then I'm "in" goes my logic.

So, I flew instead, and could have stayed in a resort for the 2 days travel time I saved, on the money I saved by not going Amtrak, and still had "pocket money" left over.

Just out of curiousity, I ventured out to see the Waterloo station while I was in Indiana, and what I found was,...not just no staff (I expected this per Amtrak travel tips), but,..no building EITHER. Just a glass "bus stop" style windbreaker...and a pay phone.. :-| No phone book, just a pay phone. :-(

Now, Imagine you are me, suitcase in hand, get dropped off the train at 11:00PM, in a lovley, quaint little podunk out in the middle of the corn, and not even a phonebook to call a cab, shuttle or what have you. And mind you, either would no doubt have charged a hefty premium to drive out the 30 miles into nowhere just to pick me up, but absent a phonebook, not even *that* was a possible salvation, in what would have been an entirely asleep little town.

Was this what they meant by ~ADVENTURE~????

I'm sure it would have been.

That's no way to run a railroad Mr. Gunn...SORRY!! NO SALE!!

I almost laid out the Grand+ for the trip under the premise of "America's dissappearing legacy", and can only say, I AM SO GLAD I didn't. I'da been SO p.o.'ed stranded out there in the middle of nowhere.

If *that's* the best Amtrak can do, then (sorry folks) LET IT BE GONE!! Better to dispense with such absurdity now, while there are still folks around who can gloat with a "see, I told you so", and get at least SOME good out of it. Peddle the trainsets off to some N.A.F.T.A. country before someone sees the foolhariness of that fiasco as well, and put an end to it. Ashes to ashes, etc

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Well, hope this helps kid, good luck!!

[Anonymous]

Rick, you hit the nail on the head! I think you should forward that to Gunn. He says he wants to get Amtrak in shape, maybe that'll help. Your analogy of the trip jives perfectly with my own experience with a trip from Michigan, to New Orleans LA. in 1994. The only difference is, I actually followed through with the Amtrak "adventure", and after arriving in N.O. a full day and a half late, told myself "never again". The lounge car staff was extremely rude to the patrons on the way down, they ran out of just about everything except attitude, and there was NO compensation whatsoever for the inconvienince. The choice to travel Amtrak cost me 2 days worth of "Mardi-Gras", and if I ever am trying to get somewhere on any kind of a schedule, believe me, Amtrak will NOT be a part of the plans!

[Anonymous]

*Blush*

Awe,..g'on!! ;o)

But seriously, entertaining your suggestion for a second, how would I ever get the message actually through to Gunn?

1.) He is a busy man, with "global scale" problems to wtestle with.

2)Any attempt to "write in" will simply fall into the hands of some "sit on his ***" lackey (probably the one in charge of making sure that stations in remote areas have phonebooks, would be my guess) and the "problem" would be shielded away from the hand that slaps

and

3) even if it did make it through, it'd be received
'tongue in cheek' as a "nuts paradigm" expecting lower fares AND more station stops, given their funding crunch

I think the most significant part of my post was the part about (from all appearances) Amtrak expecting me to buy into their ammortization schedule of the equipment.

I mean, either you want to be in the railroad business or you don't. If you do, then you must buy rolling stock. It's that simple.

I doubt seriously that Norfolk Southern is gigging Triple Crown customers for equipment ammortization, since it is market share they are aiming at.

Inversely considered, Amtrak is doing the very opposite, by their farebox prices, they are discouraging market share,..sure worked in my instance..

"cutting ones own throat" comes to mind.

(but, thanks for your endorsement of my view)

[Anonymous]

The most significant part of your post in my opinion was about the LA freeways. That is a very good point and a chief reason why I see a future for Amtrak.

I think we misunderstand the problem. Amtrak is being forced to turn away passengers with high fares by Congress, which has justified denying adequate funds to Amtrak by pretending Amtrak should be financially "self-sufficient," unlike any other mode of transportation. Until they understand that Amtrak wasn't created to make a profit, it was set up to provide rail passenger service in the same way that highways benefit the traveling public, Amtrak will not be able to expand its frequencies and routes, or charge reasonable fares--no matter how efficient Mr. Gunn is in utilizing what few resources we provide him with.

As for my experiences on Amtrak, one of my better ones was a ride from Pittsburgh to Harrisburg in 1995 (before self-sufficiency and the damaging effects of the Conrail breakup on Amtrak's on-time performance). As I recall it was not overpriced and I had a comfortable, on-time and certainly a safe trip.

[Anonymous]

OK I guess, but if I were to forward the letter to Gunn, The "freeways" part of it I was going to "clip out", since it really doesn't concern me.

Though I Live in LA, I live within 2 miles of work, have done so for 10 years.

It costs me a bundle, but the time bargain is well worth it. (different strokes I guess)

[Anonymous]

Not only does Congress need to realize that every other mode of passenger travel receives subsidies, (Greyhound with our taxes that pay for the roads which they travel, airlines with the FAA, and now they're looking for bailouts, et al.), but the railroads need to be held accountable for schedule keeping. I recently rode the Texas Eagle from San Antonio to Dallas and noticed something peculiar. While on the Union Pacific, the Eagle was treated worse than a local by the dispatcher. However, while on the BNSF, the Eagle flew. Even with UP's delays, the BNSF got us into Ft. Worth 15 minutes ahead of schedule. Here's where the problem lies-we regain UP rails in Ft. Worth. I finally arrived in Dallas 2 hours late. While waiting for my departure from Ft. Worth, I strongly considered buying a ticket for the Trinity Railway Express, the commuter train which serves DFW. I certainly would have arrived much sooner.

[Anonymous]

>>I think we misunderstand the problem
I've thought about that part of your post for awhile, and there is a good bit of truth to it.

Amtrak Doesn't pay income tax, so there is little government incentive to nurture it.

Amtrak employees wouldn't amount to a hill of beans in an election (in terms of votes), so there is no reason to nurture it.

There is only one national passengertrain network, and in the absence of competition, no potential for immediate growth in market share via "fare baiting" exists so, fares are escalated in a "cover every conceivable last cost" sort of way.

I'm familiar with the way cost of goods sold can be "built" via cost accounting principles, and often, the cost assembly process is thickly laced with seller hubris.

Imagine buying a hamburger at McDonalds, and having it necessarily include an apportionment of the walk in freezer, the building, roof, foundation, the truck that hauled the cow to slaughter, the wheat combine that harvested the wheat to make the bun, etc etc.

It becomes a matter of "how many hamburgers do you expect to sell?" and if you use too conservative a figure, you've got a $25.00 hamburger

Congress, through this misguided type of conservative forcasting, is keeping fares prohibitively high, guaranteeing that the prophesy fulfills itself...

In my example, I could barely justify in my mind paying the $650.00 for the trip compared to $400.00 by air...the "adventure" was worth the extra $250.00...But, when forced to add on the several hundred dollars more, for the basic fare I didn't expect, ON TOP OF A FARE THAT I COULD BARELY JUSTIFY ANYWAY, it became a no sale proposition.

I don't think THE VOTING PUBLIC has a "travel by rail" mindset, so the elected officials have no qualms about snubbing passenger rail in favor of modes of transportation that (ostensibly, anyway) pay income tax, and most likely pay into campaign fund donations as well.

The only thing that's gonna change *that*, is public demand for passenger rail. And at the current fares/value received curve, based upon my own experiances, is not likely to happen.


Make the total fare for the trip I outlined (just for the sake of example) $500.00, and public demand WOULD increase, and marketshare COULD be grown from Air and Greyhound, probably much to the dismay of the pork barrel congressmen and their constitutiency...

(admittedly, it IS a thorny issue, the idea of the GOVERNMENT competing with private industry)

[Anonymous]

I think Rick should be your "expert." He seems to think he knows his stuff and he sure can talk!

[Anonymous]

give me a break,ok dude? where did I ever ask to become appointed expert??? If you have a problem with someone expressing their opinion, why don't you "put up"?? You don't have to go hiding behind little school boys to try and make some snide point,...or DO YA?..

[Anonymous]

No snide points, nor do I hide behind school boys. My post was a poorly worded way of saying you all should hook up, because you seem to know your stuff, and that kid should get an 'A' on his project with a few opinions, which you and some other folks have to offer...so no offense to you Rick.

[Anonymous]

Except for that short distance of track between Temple and Fort Worth, the Texas Eagle runs mostly on Union Pacific tracks. I have complained before about Union Pacific dispatchers, it is nice to notice that someone else has noticed.

I have also noticed that Amtrak has recently added another 2 hours to the Eagle's schedule from Dallas to San Antonio. In the past decade 8 hours have been padded into the Eagle's schedule from Chicago to San Antonio. A ten hour train trip from Dallas to San Antonio is not competive against airlines, much less against buses and automobiles. And now Amtrak has closed the diner south of Fort Worth, losing a dinner southbound and a lunch northbound (that is if the train is on time southbound).

And yes, the Trinity Railway Express does move quicker on its single line than the Eagle does on Union Pacific double main line. Of course, Union Pacific does not recognize its double main line as a double line, it uses the entire 33 miles of track as a siding for hog lawed freight. In fact, when Union Pacific refuses the Eagle, the Eagle moves as swiftly on the TRE line, the former Rock Island line, as the TRE.

The problems with Amtrak in Texas, the second largest state today in population, are:
a.) poor service
b.) lack of frequency
c.) using slow UP track
d.) poor timing
e.) lously routing

Closing the diner is not helping to increase customers.

Running a train east west thrice weekly is not adequate frequency.

Union Pacific dispatchers are not rewarded giving Amtrak priority.

Arriving in San Antonio in the wee hours of the morning is not timely for transfering for both the Eagle and the Sunset Limited.

Where is the local train from Houston to Dallas? Running a local from Fort Worth to Oklahoma City is a poor routing decision running in the wrong direction. There should be a local between Dallas and Houston. Without a diner, the Eagle is now a local between Fort Worth and San Antonio running at the wrong time of day.

There is an old saying, three strikes and you're out! Amtrak has five strikes in Texas!

[Anonymous]

You did notice that the Amtrak coach fare was competive with the airline and bus fares. Neither offer meals in a diner, nor a flat place to sleep except a chair.

Amtrak's sleeper accommodations are priced at the high end because they sell out! However, when looking at the sleeper for one person, the price is very high. Yet, when looking at the sleeper for two persons, the price is not so high.

The sleeper accomodations not only provide a at least two bunks to sleep on, but also included in the fare are two very nice sized chairs with a table; free sodas, juices, and coffee; breakfast, lunch, and dinner; not to mention a zone of privacy. Before the recent cuts Amtrak offered fruits, chocolate chip cookies, and mints. And the deluxe sleeper accomodations offer you a private shower, and a couch to rest on.

Nevertheless, you are correct in stating that you could fly to Fort Wayne for less and spend a couple of nights in a resort hotel. But when you flew, you missed the deserts of Arizona and New Mexico, the mountains of Colorado, the wheat fields of Kansas, and the corn fields of Missouri and Illinois. And you should have had arranged for someone to pick you up at Waterloo, Indiana. Surely at that time of night you did not expect to have a rent a car or taxi available. They are hard to arrange at that time of night in almost any city at any airport, much less Waterloo, Indiana.

As for a passenger rail service in the future, the Amtrak of today will not survive. It is based on out of date 1950s to 1970s technology while at the same time using railroad tracks that have considerably been left to rot. Passenger trains will not survive in the future going less than 120 mph, at least. Today Amtrak across the nation averages less than 45 mph, and in Texas averages less than 30 mph.

The railroad tracks need to be upgraded to 120 mph at least, preferrably faster. We have several alternatives in front of us: to spend $60 billion or so to upgrade the tracks to 120 mph using the same old equipment, to spend $60 to $100 billion to upgrade the tracks to 150 mph using a Jetrain, or spend $120 to $180 billion building 4,000 to 6,000 miles of electrified dedicated TGV high speed rail lines with a top speed of 190 mph. I prefer the later, as do the Europeans and the Japanese.

Faster trains, such as the TGV, will not only get us to our locations quicker, but provide for much more needed frequency too. A 900 mile train trip from Dallas to Chicago would take less than 6 hours instead of the current 22 and a half hours. Amtrak could operate its three trainsets of the Eagle instead of once a day to three times a day service. There would be no more arrivals at midnight or in the wee hours of the morning anywhere any longer.

[Anonymous]

>>which you and some other folks have to offer...so no offense to you Rick.
No "Skin"..=)

Someone in an earlier post in this thread had made a diminutive generalization about "experts" in this forum, and in reading that I had been "coronated" =) in conjunction with your comment "seems to THINK he knows what he's talking about.."

--And it got me to thinking HOW SELDOM I've heard the term "seems to think he knows" in a flattering context...

It made me suspect that you possessed knowledge permitting you to know on certain terms why and how my perspective was wrong.

And, it may be. I seriously doubt it, Based upon issues and events that have led the current situation to where it is, but I find out everyday where I had been "wrong" about something, so I try to keep an open mind.

And, I was in error by taking the snide intent in the other individual's heart, and putting into your thoughts. And for *that*, I appologize...=)

Had it not been for that, my comment "would better have been" Feel free to elaborate where you think I'm wrong"..

You had a "tagline" of "Amtrak" in your original post, so I suspected/hoped you were about to elaborate, with detail?

But, again, no prob...and thank you for the original complement on my prose....Proof that public education CAN work, provided the students are paying attention

[Anonymous]

Don,

Thank you for bothering to prepare a detailed rebuttal to my post, I was hoping someone would. I feel you've come up with rationale very similar to that of Amtrak in many of these areas. And in my response, first, and formost, I want to assure you that while you may detect contempt in some of my words, the contempt is not for you, but rather, for Amtrak's logic.

I'll begin by saying, you are absolutely right, and I was wrong, I don't know what could have gotten into me. Trouble is, it is not "I" who soon will be in a battle to save my very existance.

Amtrak needs ridership, and the only way they are going to get it is through becoming more attuned to the needs of their customers, not by reasoning them away.

Amtrak is a big deal, it's nationwide, not some little "mom-n-pop" outfit. It is absolutely incompetant for a responsible organization of that magnitude to not have SOME "touch down" services at destinations it serves, at the time of calling.

That ststion is at Waterloo for one reason only, it is the nearest point of call to Ft Wayne. Amtrak has, or rather HAD a station in Ft. wayne, that it abandoned when it ceased operations on the old Pennsey line, and OFFICIALLY made the point of connection Waterloo. That was their decision, fine, but if it's Ft wayne they think they are serving THEN THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SOME WAY FOR ME TO GET THERE. (i was going to visit my 76 year old mother, and wasn't about to make her drive all the way out there, would you?)

I know of no nation wide transportation "expert" that dumps it's cargo (customers) in a dead cell, the way they would heve dumped me. Public Airports have taxicabs, if you ever find one that doesn't, you let me know!!

The real issue worthy of debate here is Amtraks misguided belief that Waterloo is destination "good enough" for it's customers.

(watch the Ft. Wayne customers come flooding in, they'll be here anytime)

The story in the new issue of Classic trains regarding "The 20th Century Limited" and "The Broadway Limited" is a perfect example of where Amtrak is screwing up. Look at the elaboration on where lowering the farebox price feeds into an increase in revenue per passenger mile. It's a classic lesson in economic's, one that certain "rule makers" would be well advised to take into consideration.

And as for the wonderful "vista's" you mention? yeah, *that* is why I was gonna take rail. But to this end, Rail corridors seldom go through the scenic parts of town, You go through dilapidated industrial districts, "old towne" like slum areas and past abandoned breweries....should I get a credit for all those "unworthy vistas's?

And, the "rate" for the sleeper? it was the mandatory coach seat rate, added onto the sleeper cost that I object to. Why should I have to pay for two "seats" in the same train? No, wait, following your logic, make that "three" seats in the same train (since as you point out, the sleeper seats two)

I want to thank you for proving my point for me, there is no reason on god's green earth why anyone would want to pay a "triple fare" if they can avoid it.

And "avoid it" they will...

In fact, "avoid" it is probably what this entire absurd exercise is all about. The columnist Don Phillips is a wise man. He has written how Amtrak was created to keep the railroads from getting a black eye from terminating passenger rail. He's right.

At *that* time, passenger rail still mattered to a heck of a lot more people than it does now.

What Amtrak is, in actuality, is a 20 year "fuse" designed to allow the crap"y policy of Amtrak to drive customers away, so that in the end, as few people are really left when things go "boom".

And that is what we are seeing right now, the fuse is near the end.

[Anonymous]

And Don, in general, the rationale you mention "smacks" of a business that has decided the customers must solve the problems it encounters in doing business with it.

Wanna see what happens when a business finds comfort in that kind of thinking?

Go get a list of the top 25 chapter 7 filings in the usa during the past 50 years, for businesses whose stock in trade required hard physical assets.

nice list,...huh?..,=)

[Anonymous]

Yes, Rick, my earlier post a couple of weeks ago was very, VERY poorly worded. "SEEMS to think he knows" what not my intent at all, in fact, when I look back on it, it looks very rude, and I apologize for that. What I really meant was that you sound like a really bright guy an hope you can help out this kid on his project (if he still has time)
I wish you luck, and I apologize again for the very poorly worded post that I typed previously.

Joe
Atlanta, GA

[Anonymous]

No problem at all,.....

Now, if Mr Bush and Mr Gunn could just settle their differences as easily.....there would be no more problem.=)