red flag vs FRED?

[dldance]

I just saw a short (8-10 cars) UP train in Austin TX waiting on a siding for an oncoming train. The short train had a red flag in the rear coupler instead of an EOT device. Is that common? Why is that done?

dd

[David3]

Usually short trains that don't travel that far, so there is no need for the FRED. Some times air hoses arent even connected and independent brakes are used, so the FRED isnt necesarry on those trains or locals. Just know this because of my dad.

Dave

[rich747us]

My understanding is that on some locals and yard trains, a standard practice is to use a red flad in lieu of an EOT. I'm sure exactly why, but my guess is that since local trains are normally quite short in comparrison to main line through freights, and because they dont travel for as long distances as main line trains, the railroads just give them a red flag and reserve to EOT's for the higher priority train. Like I said, this is just my guess. Someone like csxengineer98 would probably be able to give you a more definative answer.

[edblysard]

5.10.1 Highly Visible Markers
Display a highly visible marker at the rear of every train as follows:

From 1 hour before sunset to 1 hour after sunrise.
When weather conditions restrict visibility to less than 1/2 mile.

A marker equipped with a functioning photo-electric cell will automatically illuminate at the appropriate time.
When an engine is operating without cars or is at the rear of the train, the trailing headlight illuminated on dim may be used as a marker. Inspection of Marker

When a highly visible marker is required, a qualified employee must inspect it at the initial terminal and at each crew change point. To determine if the marker is functioning properly, the employee will inspect it by observation or by telemetry display in the cab of the engine. The engineer must be informed of the results of the inspection.


5.10.2 Alternative Markers
Display a reflector, red flag, or light fixture at the rear of the train as the marker when any of the following conditions exists:

A highly visible marker is not required.
A defective car must be placed at the rear for movement to a repair point.
The rear portion of the train is disabled and cannot be moved, and a highly visible marker cannot be displayed on the rear of the portion to be moved.
or
The highly visible marker becomes inoperative enroute. If this occurs, notify the train dispatcher and move the train to the next forward location where the highly visible marker can be repaired or replaced.


The above is from the GCOR....General Code of Operating Rules.

Note it states "when a highly visable marker is not required"...
The following are the "whens"...

In yard to yard transfer service, outside of CTC and during daylight hours, a Fred/EOT is not required.

Withing yard limits a EOT or Fred is not required.

Yard limits can be huge, much longer or bigger that the actual yard proper.

My entire railroad is "within yard limits", and we have almost 90 miles of running rail, (main line grade track) and over 400 miles yard track and industry track.

Also, on FRA exempt tracks, a EOT or Fred is not required.

What you most likely were looking at was a daylight yard to yard transfer or a local switching job on non CTC tracks.
A local may also occupy main line CTC tracks for a yard to yard movement with the dispatchers permission if that movement is under two miles.

Ed

[dldance]

Since there is a lumber yard track very near where I saw the engine and since the train included a number of empty lumber racks - I suspect that it has just switched that track. I don't know what the yard limits are around Austin.

thanks

dd

[BR60103]

Ed:
Do you need a marker if you're operating a branch that will only have one train on it at a time? (what the Brits call "one engine in steam")

[adrianspeeder]

Once again, Ed saves the day flyin up in his hemi station wagon filled with the rules of the railroad...

Adrianspeeder

[Dough]

Also, all of the MoW trains that I have seen just had red flags.

[edblysard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

Ed:
Do you need a marker if you're operating a branch that will only have one train on it at a time? (what the Brits call "one engine in steam")

On anything other than mainline tracks no marker is required.

I would do the copy/paste thing, but that would require a lot of space.
Instead of that, I will refer you to

http://www.railroadcontrols.com/gcor/

and in paticular

http://www.railroadcontrols.com/gcor/movement.html#6.27

An on-line version of the GCOR.

Go to section 6.0, Movement of trains.
Pay paticular attention to rules 6.27 and 6.28

Any movement on other than mainline track is to be made at restricted speed not to exceed 20mph.

So a train operating on a local or branch line track should be going slow enough to stop within 1/2 the visual distance of any problem.

Because some trains may originate in a non mainline terminal and then be required to operate over mainline tracks in the performance of their duites, a marked is placed on the rear.
Your not going to stop and hang a marker everytime you enter a mainline, nor stop and remove it everytime you leave a mainline and quite a few trains enter and leave mainline track often.

Because most branch lines and local lines do not need, and can not afford a signal system or generate enough traffic to justify a CTC system, they operate under rules 6.27 and 6.28.

A train without a marker may enter a mainline, but only after getting track and time from the dispatcher/control operator.

This is how your MOW train operates...he has premission from the dispatcher to occupy the main between a fixed set of control points, usually milepost or stations...for a set period of time.

While he is there, he is protected by a form B, which, in essence, lets him "own" that section of the main.

Nothing, and no one, may enter that section with out the verbal authority of the MOW foreman in charge, to whom the form B was issued.

The dispatcher can not order a train to proceed into the limits of the form B, not even the president of the railroad can do that.

On the other hand, a dispatcher may allow a local, sans marker, out on the main to do switch work at a industry located on the main, again under track and time, and with certain limits of movement.

So, to answer Br60103's question, no, a train on a branch line is not required to have a marker, EOT or Fred.

Go read the GCOR...lots of interesting things on train movement there...
Ed

[wabash1]

Ed

In my understanding of the rules. I wont leave the yard with out one. If you are running a branch line or any line that takes a warrent of any track authority even time table you must have a marker on the rear. ( outside of yard limits) A marker to tell you about end of train could be a flag or a light that has a reflective lens also and or the good ole
eot. if you are in yard limits it can be called a cut of cars and there is no need for a EOT.

[edblysard]

We go out on the UP main to service Air Products, minus marker, all the time.
As long as we have the track and time, its ok.

Air Products are located on a controled siding, once we get off the main and in the siding, we are stuck there a long time, they run a heck of a lot of traffic around us.

I think you guys operate under a different rule book, right?
Whats the book you use?
We use the GCOR...

Ed

[wabash1]

its ns rule book. but weather they write it for there benifit or if it is called the gcor( they are thinking of going to that) most if not all rules are fra in them. Is the up main line still in yard limits? I wont say we dont go out with out markers either and some times the red flag will fly out of the hole .I just dont like the idea of being fined

[edblysard]

Its UP mainline, we have track rights on it.
At this yard in Pasadena, the yard limits are the edge or end of the yard....our switcher on the north lead has to get track and time to drag out and switch...

I dont blame ya, if where you are requires a marker, then dont leave the yard without it!