Old ties' life

[harpwolf]

Ties don't just up-and fail, they fail verrrrry slooooowly. As they cease to support rail, rail issues become apparent, like bad joints caused by vertical support, bad gage holding, etc. and it becomes necessary to throw in enough ties to make the track keep gage. The FRA (or equivalent state utility commission) will make you do that minimum.

Beyond that, the reason to replace ties is they're not supporting the track, especially at joints, and that's beating hell out of joint bars and rail ends, and jostling equipment and passengers.

If you want an object education in this, find your nearest operating railway musem with lousy track, and volunteer in the Maintence of Way dept.

[BaltACD]

jock -

you paint such a beautiful picture of metropolitan Atlanta

[jockellis]

Richard, what you told me is what I wanted to know. Riding 10 mph would not be objectionable if you are only taking a trip of a few miles on a Saturday excursion line to allow people to see the prospects of a beltline trolley. These are my own ideas, not those of Friends of the Beltline. But since I think about rail pretty much 16/7/52 this crossed my mind. Things seem to move so slowly in such projects. They are talking about years for getting this thing going and circling Atlanta. Personally, I don't think it needs to truly circle Atlanta but a lot of folks do. I've never seen a real railroad which runs in a circle. But tree huggers as well as real estate moguls have embraced this project and want to have parks circle the city. Atlanta already has 373 parks on the books - I know because I used to be the administrative assistant and parks inspector at the Georgia Dept. of Natural Resources Parks Funding Unit and asked the city - and they can't take care of the ones they have. Atlanta's citizens would rather shatter their empty liquor bottles on the ballfields after a night of lonely drinking than toss them in the trash cans. Of course, the trash cans stay full because they are full of beer cans leftover from afternoon binges. This I know because I've seen the afternoon drinkers and the glass shards on the ballfields.
But if they want more parks, let 'em have them as long as I can one day see the trolley running.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A

[Anonymous]

Didence is correct in that the average life of a crossite is about 30 years. Other factors enter into the equation such as the degree of maintenance the line has received. Even in the hot humid south with proper ballast cleaning and good drainage the tie can have a long life. The degree of abuse the tie was subjected to also determines its life. If the track is kept smooth with proper tamping and leveling, etc the ties will not be beaten to death and have a long life. The fish plates have four spike holes of which only two are used at a time. The second set is for when the spike holes in the ties become enlarged and will not properly hold a spike tight. There are also wood inserts to go into the spike hole to act as a shim for a loose spike. The problem with the line in question is it was essentially taken out of service many years ago. This means that maintenance stopped a long time ago. I suspect that this line is excepted classification or at best Class 1. If you would remove the ties the top might be in excellant shape but the sides and bottom, which contact the ground, will be mostly rotted out. You are looking at a line that would have at max a 10 MPH speed limit. One possibility is to investigate the used tie business. Often times they will have ties that the Class 1s do not want in main line service, but would be acceptable for light duty trolley service.

[jockellis]

The discussions have already begun and Mayor Shirley Franklin a big supporter. The only problem with this place is that they tend to make things too expensive. MARTA has the heaviest rail of anything I've ever seen. New Orleans RTA tells me they use 115 lb rail and that it is bigger than the 42-foot trolleys need.
My fear is that Atlanta's project will be killed by people who want to add on so many costs that the project is not economically viable.
I wondered if someone in the know might know if old ties and rail (with some probable upgrades) might be usable for a one trolley venture like that of Charlotte, NC. I'm sure you read about that in trains.

[Anonymous]

Generally, the service life of a hardwood crosstie is an average of 30 years. It tends to be less in the southeast due to higher humidity and milder temperatures that allow insects and fungus to take a toll year round as they are not eliminated by an annual deep freeze. In some very moist climes life can be as short as 10 years. It is unlikely the ties you have found have much life left in them for purposes of supporting an active rail operation, even of lightweight trolleys.

A new crosstie costs about $65 to $70 installed these days. The cost of the crossties is negligible compared to the cost of the rail your trolley will need and the other materials and labor costs. It will take a LOT more than a few volunteers and an idea to make a new trolley system. Get your plans together and start discussions with the local government.

LC

[dldance]

Good luck - just remember that the top of the tie is generally the part of the tie that is in the best shape but the bottom of the tie - the part you don't see - is the part that supports the weight of the trolley full of precious lives.

dd

[jockellis]

Here in Atlanta, a smart Georgia Tech architecture student noticed the possibilities for a trolley beltline utilizing a number of tracks of Norfolk Southern and CSX. He formed a non-profit Friends of the Beltline to pu***he idea and we volunteers were cleaning up the roadbed right of way in Piedmont Park. The last time I had walked these tracks was in 1961 the week Sports Illustrated had a story about the pulp fiction sports hero, Frank Merriwell, and the tracks were still in use, I think. It has been many years since these particular tracks have been used but the ties appear to be in good shape despite the dirt piled up between them instead of ballast. Of course looks can be deceiving but I think they would hold the 16,000 lb.axle weight of a two truck trolley. At least, that's the approx. weight of the heritage and new Perly Thomas trolleys used by the New Orleans RTA. The weight figures were given to me by NORTA Gen. Mgr. Will Mullet. Incidentally, Will told me one 42-foot Perly Thomas trolley will hold the passengers of two buses.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A